HOH Top 60 Defensemen List & Voting Record - seventieslord

[overpass]

seventieslord

Rank | Player
1 | Bobby Orr
2 | Doug Harvey
3 | Eddie Shore
4 | Ray Bourque
5 | Nicklas Lidstrom
6 | Denis Potvin
7 | Slava Fetisov
8 | Red Kelly
9 | Brad Park
10 | Larry Robinson
11 | Chris Chelios
12 | Paul Coffey
13 | King Clancy
14 | Sprague Cleghorn
15 | Pierre Pilote
16 | Al Macinnis
17 | Tim Horton
18 | Earl Seibert
19 | Dit Clapper
20 | Chris Pronger
21 | Scott Stevens
22 | Borje Salming
23 | Mark Howe
24 | Valeri Vasiliev
25 | Brian Leetch
26 | Bill Gadsby
27 | Bill Quackenbush
28 | Serge Savard
29 | Guy Lapointe
30 | Rod Langway
31 | Moose Johnson
32 | Eddie Gerard
33 | Lionel Conacher
34 | George Boucher
35 | Jack Stewart
36 | Lester Patrick
37 | Jacques Laperriere
38 | J.C. Tremblay
39 | Scott Niedermayer
40 | Butch Bouchard
41 | Hod Stuart
42 | Harvey Pulford
43 | Ebbie Goodfellow
44 | Larry Murphy
45 | Rob Blake
46 | Marcel Pronovost
47 | Zdeno Chara
48 | Alexei Kasatonov
49 | Ching Johnson
50 | Babe Siebert
51 | Carl Brewer
52 | Bill White
53 | Pat Stapleton
54 | Ken Reardon
55 | Harry Howell
56 | Fern Flaman
57 | Art Coulter
58 | Doug Wilson
59 | Alexander Ragulin
60 | Jan Suchy
61 | Mike Grant
62 | Allan Stanley
63 | Sergei Zubov
64 | Tom Johnson
65 | Harry Cameron
66 | Sylvio Mantha
67 | Hap Day
68 | Frantisek Pospisil
69 | Jimmy Thomson
70 | Jack Crawford
71 | Doug Mohns
72 | Babe Pratt
73 | Gus Mortson
74 | Herb Gardiner
75 | Vladimir Lutchenko
76 | Ott Heller
77 | Cy Wentworth
78 | Flash Hollett
79 | Joe Simpson
80 | Red Dutton

Players from the Top 60 not to appear on this list
None

Players ranked highest overall on this list
None

Players ranked lowest overall on this list
None

Players unique to this list
None

Round | Rank 1 | Rank 2 | Rank 3 | Rank 4 | Rank 5 | Rank 6 | Rank 7 | Rank 8 | Rank 9 | Rank 10
Round 1|Orr|Harvey|Bourque|Shore|Lidstrom|Potvin|Fetisov|Kelly|Robinson|Chelios
Round 2|Denis Potvin|Red Kelly|Slava Fetisov|Chris Chelios|Brad Park|Larry Robinson|King Clancy|Pierre Pilote|Paul Coffey|Al MacInnis
Round 3|Park|Clancy|Cleghorn|Coffer|Pilote|Horton|Seibert|Stevens|Pronger|MacInnis
Round 4|Seibert |horton |stevens| pronger |macinnis |salming |gadsby| leetch |vasiliev| clapper
Round 5|Borje Salming|Valeri Vasiliev|Brian Leetch|Dit Clapper|Bill Gadsby|Bill Quackenbush|Mark Howe|Rod Langway|Guy Lapointe|Jack Stewart
Round 6|Bill Quackenbush|Mark Howe|Rod Langway|Guy Lapointe|Jack Stewart|Serge Savard|Eddie Gerard|J.C. Tremblay|Marcel Pronovost|Scott Niedermayer
Round 7|Stewart|Lapointe|Kasatonov|Pronovost|Chara|Tremblay|Niedermayer|Blake|Murphy|Conacher
Round 8|Moose Johnson|Hod Stuart|Ching Johnson|Alexei Kasatonov|JC Tremblay|Jacques Laperriere|Zdeno Chara|Rob Blake|Larry Murphy|Buck Boucher
Round 9|Ernest "Moose" Johnson|Rob Blake|Zdeno Chara|Larry Murphy|Georges "Buck" Boucher|Albert "Babe" Siebert|Emile "Butch" Bouchard|Ebbie Goodfellow|Carl Brewer|Ken Reardon
Round 10|NONE|||||||||
Round 11|Reardon|Pulford|Ragulin|Patrick|Wilson|Cameron|Coulter|Stanley|Flaman|Johnson
Round 12|Mike Grant|Harvey Pulford|Frantisek Pospisil|Harry Cameron|Alexander Ragulin|Sylvio Mantha|Bill White|Allan Stanley|Babe Pratt|Fern Flaman

Click to read more...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Players from the Top 60 not to appear on this list
None

Players ranked highest overall on this list
None

Players ranked lowest overall on this list
None

Players unique to this list
None

Boring!

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Interesting to see both Tremblay and Laperriere jump Chara between votes 7 and 8.

Out of curiosity, do you still rank Ragulin and Suchy back to back?

 

[overpass]

Boring!

Yep. I said your list might have been the closest to consensus. Maybe this one was.

 

[seventieslord]

Yep. I said your list might have been the closest to consensus. Maybe this one was.

sweet! I like that.

Boring, though, indeed.

I still think we overrated Suchy and underrated Ragulin, yes. An imaginary line was drawn between their eras where one sucked and one was awesome, when there was never a magic switch thrown, the developments in european hockey were fluid and mostly gradual.

 

[Andros]

Interesting to see how the positions in the Park-Chelios-Robinson trio changed every round from submitted list to the second voting. Care to elaborate a little on that?

 

[seventieslord]

Interesting to see how the positions in the Park-Chelios-Robinson trio changed every round from submitted list to the second voting. Care to elaborate a little on that?

my initial list reflects what I thought at that time.

my round 1 vote is congruent with my initial list (Park was not an option)

arguments regarding Chelios' PK ability and incredible longevity swayed me in round 2 and convinced me he was better than park. I never changed my tune on Park v Robinson though.

kind of a boring story, really. you had to be there...

 

[Andros]

my initial list reflects what I thought at that time.

my round 1 vote is congruent with my initial list (Park was not an option)

arguments regarding Chelios' PK ability and incredible longevity swayed me in round 2 and convinced me he was better than park. I never changed my turn on Park v Robinson though.

kind of a boring story, really. you had to be there...

Oh yeah, didn't realize that Park wasn't an option for the first voting. Makes the story a lot less interesting

 

[reckoning]

Looking at this list, I'm surprised that his rankings for Park, Clancy and Cleghorn weren't their highest.

I also see that, like me, he voted for Chara in the weekly votes over players he had higher than him on his original list. I think a lot of us were a little guilty of underrating him.

 

[overpass]

Looking at this list, I'm surprised that his rankings for Park, Clancy and Cleghorn weren't their highest.

I also see that, like me, he voted for Chara in the weekly votes over players he had higher than him on his original list. I think a lot of us were a little guilty of underrating him.

We've already seen Cleghorn's highest - tarheelhockey had him 10th.

seventieslord was tied for 2nd highest on Park with several others. He was above median on Clancy but not extremely high. We've already seen TheDevilMadeMe list Clancy at 12 and that wasn't the highest.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Interesting that Savard/Lapoite, Laperriere/Tremblay and White/Stapleton were all back-to-back like they were Sedins.

 

[seventieslord]

Interesting that Savard/Lapoite, Laperriere/Tremblay and White/Stapleton were all back-to-back like they were Sedins.

it was deliberate. A few others:

Murphy/Blake
Ragulin/Suchy
Stuart/Pulford

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

it was deliberate. A few others:

Murphy/Blake
Ragulin/Suchy
Stuart/Pulford

I asked you about Ragulin/Suchy earlier (I still have no idea why you would think they are equal, but you're entitled to your opinion).

It appears from your voting that you stuck to your guns on Murphy/Blake and changed your mind on Stuart/Pulford?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

it was deliberate. A few others:

Murphy/Blake
Ragulin/Suchy
Stuart/Pulford

I noticed those too but wasn't sure if they were the same as teammates.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Interesting that Savard/Lapoite, Laperriere/Tremblay and White/Stapleton were all back-to-back like they were Sedins.

While you're mentioning it, I also had Savard/Lapointe and White/Stapleton back to back. I think I had Laperriere/Tremblay only seperated by a few spots too.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

While you're mentioning it, I also had Savard/Lapointe and White/Stapleton back to back. I think I had Laperriere/Tremblay only seperated by a few spots too.

You're looking shadier all the time, TDMM.

 

[seventieslord]

I asked you about Ragulin/Suchy earlier (I still have no idea why you would think they are equal, but you're entitled to your opinion).

It appears from your voting that you stuck to your guns on Murphy/Blake and changed your mind on Stuart/Pulford?

Ragulin/Suchy is a case study in longevity versus peak with the “good era, bad era†red herring thrown in for good measure. Based on what we think of Firsov I can’t believe Ragulin can get downgraded so much. He is the Firsov of Russian defensemen, based on the recognition he received and the timing of said recognition. Suchy’s case was based on a very short peak.

I never got a chance to vote otherwise, but I am comfortable with Suchy over Ragulin. The gap we ended up creating between them became pretty comical though.

Re: Murphy/Blake, I voted for Blake over Murphy three straight opportunities.

I never got a chance to vote otherwise, but I’m also comfortable with Stuart over Pulford. He really got hyped as the best player as his time by a few, and I think that influenced his final ranking a bit too much. Pulford’s defensive excellence and its contribution to a dynasty got unfairly brushed aside in the final couple of rounds. The comparisons to guys like Derian Hatcher were puzzling because this was the #2 defenseman of a generation.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Ragulin/Suchy is a case study in longevity versus peak with the “good era, bad era” red herring thrown in for good measure. Based on what we think of Firsov I can’t believe Ragulin can get downgraded so much. He is the Firsov of Russian defensemen, based on the recognition he received and the timing of said recognition. Suchy’s case was based on a very short peak.

I never got a chance to vote otherwise, but I am comfortable with Suchy over Ragulin. The gap we ended up creating between them became pretty comical though.

Suchy was 49th. Ragulin was 6th in votes in the final round. So assume Ragulin was 61st, is 12 spots such as huge gap? I doubt Ragulin would finish 61st in the next round, as there were some voters voting "not top 10" to just about every non-NHL European, but he'd be highly likely to get in. Considering the word on Suchy is that nobody in Europe had ever seen a defenseman like him before, I think that is a small gap if anything.

I also disagree with the Firsov/Ragulin comparison. Firsov dominated international competitions in the late 60s, as Ragulin's star was already fading.

But I doubt we'll agree on this one.

I never got a chance to vote otherwise, but I’m also comfortable with Stuart over Pulford. He really got hyped as the best player as his time by a few, and I think that influenced his final ranking a bit too much. Pulford’s defensive excellence and its contribution to a dynasty got unfairly brushed aside in the final couple of rounds. The comparisons to guys like Derian Hatcher were puzzling because this was the #2 defenseman of a generation.

I compared Pulford to Hatcher. I also had Hatcher in my top 70, so I don't think that's exactly an insult. I didn't say Pulford was no better than Hatcher; I did say that sometimes I wonder what makes him better.

 

[Pear Juice]

sweet! I like that.

Boring, though, indeed.

I still think we overrated Suchy and underrated Ragulin, yes. An imaginary line was drawn between their eras where one sucked and one was awesome, when there was never a magic switch thrown, the developments in european hockey were fluid and mostly gradual.

Just wait till you see my rating of Suchy. With regards to the composition of the voting group I think we placed him quite well, maybe slightly on the low side. While I see Suchy as significantly better and more important though, I definitely think Ragulin deserved a place in the top 60.