HOH Top 60 Defensemen List & Voting Record - Hockey Outsider

overpass · Feb 25, 2012

Hockey Outsider

Players from the Top 60 not to appear on this list
George Boucher
Harvey Pulford

Players ranked highest overall on this list
Alexei Kasatonov (24)
Fern Flaman (45)
Nikolai Sologubov (50)
Bill White (51)

Players ranked lowest overall on this list
None

Players unique to this list
None

overpass · Feb 25, 2012

Was the omission of Buck Boucher an oversight? I believe I remember you placing him on your 2008 Top 100 list.

Hockey Outsider · Feb 25, 2012

Yes, Boucher was an oversight. I'm genuinely surprised to see that I didn't have him included on the list I submitted.

The biggest inconsistency on my list was ranking Reardon 17 spots above Stewart. They played during the same era and had very similar peaks, but Stewart has a clear edge in longevity. If I had to re-do my list, I'd probably have Stewart around 40 and Reardon around 50.

Players who were 10+ spots higher on my list compared to the final list

My rank|My rank|HOH rank|Difference
Alexander Ragulin | 30 | NR | 31+
Larry Murphy | 33 | 50 | 17
Fern Flaman | 45 | NR | 16+
František PospÃšil | 42 | 58 | 16
Alexei Kasatonov | 24 | 39 | 15
Jan SuchÃ½ | 36 | 49 | 13
Nikolai Sologubov | 50 | NR | 11+
Ken Reardon | 40 | 51 | 11
Bill White | 51 | NR | 10+
Lester Patrick | 43 | 53 | 10

Apparently I have a more favourable impression of non-NHL Europeans compared to the HOH consensus. Five of the then players that I ranked significantly higher than HOH were Russian and Czech defensemen.

I ranked the other five players too high initially. I've already discussed Reardon. I don't remember why, specifically, I ranked White and Patrick as high as I did. I focused too much on the numerous, glowing contemporary quotes about Flaman, without standing back and seeing how his legacy stacks up to others. I like Muprhy's consistency and longevity, but became less impressed with him as the voting started (see my voting results).

Players who were 10+ spots lower on my list compared to the final list

My rank|My rank|HOH rank|Difference
Georges "Buck" Boucher | NR | 48 | -33+
Aubrey "Dit" Clapper | 56 | 24 | -32
Jack Stewart | 57 | 31 | -26
Ivan "Ching" Johnson | 62 | 37 | -25
Harvey Pulford | NR | 60 | -21+
Lionel Conacher | 54 | 35 | -19
Sylvio Mantha | 70 | 56 | -14
Harry Cameron | 71 | 57 | -14
Art Coulter | 67 | 54 | -13
Ernest "Moose" Johnson | 53 | 41 | -12
Emile "Butch" Bouchard | 55 | 45 | -10

Interestingly, all eleven of these blueliners played most/all of their career before 1950. Perhaps I'm subconsciously biased againt the earliest era of hockey? I honestly didn't think I was, but the evidence is pretty compelling!

As I mentioned above, Boucher was a careless omission from my list, and I likely would have ranked him around 50, eliminating the largest difference.

Clapper is hard to assess - I suspect that my low ranking is probably explained by the fact that I completely ignored his career as a forward. I'm not sure if others gave him partial credit for his time as a forward. I still think that 24 seems really high if we only consider his accomplishments as a blueliner.

Still, that leaves nine significant differences. Standing back and looking at my list as a whole, I generally match the consensus view on Original Six and post-expansion defensemen. I seem to have a more favourable view than most of non-NHL Europeans, but a lower opinion than most on pre-WWII blueliners.

Dennis Bonvie · Feb 25, 2012

Hockey Outsider said:
Yes, Boucher was an oversight. I'm genuinely surprised to see that I didn't have him included on the list I submitted.

The biggest inconsistency on my list was ranking Reardon 17 spots above Stewart. They played during the same era and had very similar peaks, but Stewart has a clear edge in longevity. If I had to re-do my list, I'd probably have Stewart around 40 and Reardon around 50.

Players who were 10+ spots higher on my list compared to the final list

My rank|My rank|HOH rank|Difference
Alexander Ragulin | 30 | NR | 31+
Larry Murphy | 33 | 50 | 17
Fern Flaman | 45 | NR | 16+
FrantiÅ¡ek PospÃÅ¡il | 42 | 58 | 16
Alexei Kasatonov | 24 | 39 | 15
Jan SuchÃ½ | 36 | 49 | 13
Nikolai Sologubov | 50 | NR | 11+
Ken Reardon | 40 | 51 | 11
Bill White | 51 | NR | 10+
Lester Patrick | 43 | 53 | 10

Apparently I have a more favourable impression of non-NHL Europeans compared to the HOH consensus. Five of the then players that I ranked significantly higher than HOH were Russian and Czech defensemen.

I ranked the other five players too high initially. I've already discussed Reardon. I don't remember why, specifically, I ranked White and Patrick as high as I did. I focused too much on the numerous, glowing contemporary quotes about Flaman, without standing back and seeing how his legacy stacks up to others. I like Muprhy's consistency and longevity, but became less impressed with him as the voting started (see my voting results).

Players who were 10+ spots lower on my list compared to the final list

My rank|My rank|HOH rank|Difference
Georges "Buck" Boucher | NR | 48 | -33+
Aubrey "Dit" Clapper | 56 | 24 | -32
Jack Stewart | 57 | 31 | -26
Ivan "Ching" Johnson | 62 | 37 | -25
Harvey Pulford | NR | 60 | -21+
Lionel Conacher | 54 | 35 | -19
Sylvio Mantha | 70 | 56 | -14
Harry Cameron | 71 | 57 | -14
Art Coulter | 67 | 54 | -13
Ernest "Moose" Johnson | 53 | 41 | -12
Emile "Butch" Bouchard | 55 | 45 | -10

Interestingly, all eleven of these blueliners played most/all of their career before 1950. Perhaps I'm subconsciously biased againt the earliest era of hockey? I honestly didn't think I was, but the evidence is pretty compelling!

As I mentioned above, Boucher was a careless omission from my list, and I likely would have ranked him around 50, eliminating the largest difference.

Clapper is hard to assess - I suspect that my low ranking is probably explained by the fact that I completely ignored his career as a forward. I'm not sure if others gave him partial credit for his time as a forward. I still think that 24 seems really high if we only consider his accomplishments as a blueliner.

Still, that leaves nine significant differences. Standing back and looking at my list as a whole, I generally match the consensus view on Original Six and post-expansion defensemen. I seem to have a more favourable view than most of non-NHL Europeans, but a lower opinion than most on pre-WWII blueliners.

Excellent self-analysis.

seventieslord · Feb 25, 2012

Indeed. I must now do the same!

Hardyvan123 · Feb 25, 2012

Hockey Outsider said:
Yes, Boucher was an oversight. I'm genuinely surprised to see that I didn't have him included on the list I submitted.

The biggest inconsistency on my list was ranking Reardon 17 spots above Stewart. They played during the same era and had very similar peaks, but Stewart has a clear edge in longevity. If I had to re-do my list, I'd probably have Stewart around 40 and Reardon around 50.

Players who were 10+ spots higher on my list compared to the final list

My rank|My rank|HOH rank|Difference
Alexander Ragulin | 30 | NR | 31+
Larry Murphy | 33 | 50 | 17
Fern Flaman | 45 | NR | 16+
FrantiÅ¡ek PospÃÅ¡il | 42 | 58 | 16
Alexei Kasatonov | 24 | 39 | 15
Jan SuchÃ½ | 36 | 49 | 13
Nikolai Sologubov | 50 | NR | 11+
Ken Reardon | 40 | 51 | 11
Bill White | 51 | NR | 10+
Lester Patrick | 43 | 53 | 10

Apparently I have a more favourable impression of non-NHL Europeans compared to the HOH consensus. Five of the then players that I ranked significantly higher than HOH were Russian and Czech defensemen.

I ranked the other five players too high initially. I've already discussed Reardon. I don't remember why, specifically, I ranked White and Patrick as high as I did. I focused too much on the numerous, glowing contemporary quotes about Flaman, without standing back and seeing how his legacy stacks up to others. I like Muprhy's consistency and longevity, but became less impressed with him as the voting started (see my voting results).

Players who were 10+ spots lower on my list compared to the final list

My rank|My rank|HOH rank|Difference
Georges "Buck" Boucher | NR | 48 | -33+
Aubrey "Dit" Clapper | 56 | 24 | -32
Jack Stewart | 57 | 31 | -26
Ivan "Ching" Johnson | 62 | 37 | -25
Harvey Pulford | NR | 60 | -21+
Lionel Conacher | 54 | 35 | -19
Sylvio Mantha | 70 | 56 | -14
Harry Cameron | 71 | 57 | -14
Art Coulter | 67 | 54 | -13
Ernest "Moose" Johnson | 53 | 41 | -12
Emile "Butch" Bouchard | 55 | 45 | -10

Interestingly, all eleven of these blueliners played most/all of their career before 1950. Perhaps I'm subconsciously biased againt the earliest era of hockey? I honestly didn't think I was, but the evidence is pretty compelling!

As I mentioned above, Boucher was a careless omission from my list, and I likely would have ranked him around 50, eliminating the largest difference.

Clapper is hard to assess - I suspect that my low ranking is probably explained by the fact that I completely ignored his career as a forward. I'm not sure if others gave him partial credit for his time as a forward. I still think that 24 seems really high if we only consider his accomplishments as a blueliner.

Still, that leaves nine significant differences. Standing back and looking at my list as a whole, I generally match the consensus view on Original Six and post-expansion defensemen. I seem to have a more favourable view than most of non-NHL Europeans, but a lower opinion than most on pre-WWII blueliners.

I agree with Dennis Bonvie that it's an excellent self-analysis but I thin the word bias gets thrown around to often sometimes and it's always in respect to more recent and older players and vice versa and rarely in other terms like offensive versus defensive strengths.

I think that the major reasons people might have "perceived bias" or rather "tendencies towards one group over the others"is that everyone has different criteria in evaluating different players and one of the hardest ones to balance is the competitive level of one era to another.

Hockey Outsider · Feb 25, 2012

Thanks for the comments.

For the record Hardyvan, I considered other factors, aside from era and nationality, when seeing if I had any "preferences". For example, I considered if I diverged from the consensus in terms of offense vs defense, peak vs longevity and regular season vs playoff performance. I didn't detect any major differences (though let me know if you disagree).

Hardyvan123 · Feb 25, 2012

Hockey Outsider said:
Thanks for the comments.

For the record Hardyvan, I considered other factors, aside from era and nationality, when seeing if I had any "preferences". For example, I considered if I diverged from the consensus in terms of offense vs defense, peak vs longevity and regular season vs playoff performance. I didn't detect any major differences (though let me know if you disagree).

For the "bias" or "patterns" comment, it was not directed at you per say but rather your comment sparked something that I have noticed generally in some of the comparisons and comments.

In my original list I overvalued some guys and had some guys lower than I would now and found the whole process to be quite enlightening and fun.

John Flyers Fan · Feb 25, 2012

Very good list.

Only complaints I have are Neidermayer over Howe and Langway over Chara.

reckoning · Feb 26, 2012

I like Sologubov at #50, though I didn't have the guts to put him that high on mine. He was dismissed by many on here in the pre-vote thread as not being worthy due to where Soviet hockey was at the time. But if you compare him to later Soviet defencemen rather than Canadians of his era, it's totally justifiable.

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HOH Top 60 Defensemen List & Voting Record - Hockey Outsider

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