HOH Top 60 Centers List & Voting Record - Canadiens1958

TheDevilMadeMe · Apr 3, 2014

Round 1 List

Players from our final top 60 not ranked in this top 60
Vladimir Petrov at 61
Mats Sundin at 62
Frank Fredrickson at 63
Duke Keats at 67
Neil Colville at 73
Vaclav Nedomansky at 74

Players unique to this list
Patrice Bergeron (on 1 other list)
Mike Peca (on 1 other list)

Players ranked highest overall on this list
Bryan Trottier at 5 - next highest at 6
Ted Kennedy at 17 - next highest at 19
Pavel Datsyuk at 28 - next highest at 32
Jacques Lemaire at 41 - next highest at 42
Pit Lepine at 57 - next highest at 61

Players ranked 2nd highest on this list
Henri Richard at 14 (tied with 1 other)
Dave Keon at 21
Alex Delvecchio at 22
Guy Carbonneau at 42
Sven Tumba at 53

Players ranked lowest overall on this list
Marcel Dionne at 34 - next lowest at 23
Joe Thornton at 52 - next lowest at 50

Players ranked 2nd lowest on this list
Stan Mikita at 7
Milt Schmidt at 19 (tied with 1 other)

Round 2 voting

Highest vote
Round 4: Richard 1st
Round 6: Keon 3rd
Round 13: Lemaire 1st
Round 14: Lemaire 1st
Round 15: Carbonneau 2nd

Lowest vote
Round 2: Mikita 4th
Round 5: Dionne NR
Round 13: Petrov NR

TheDevilMadeMe · Apr 3, 2014

We finally get to the 2nd voter to have Beliveau over Lemieux in Round 2.

Fred Taylor · Apr 3, 2014

Surprised to see Datsyuk at 28. Also you're more friendly towards modern players than I had thought.

Killion · Apr 3, 2014

Very well done. Like the placement of Kennedy, inclusion of Peca... some minor nits with respect to Lemaire & Keon's placements but overall, Id concur with most of it (though again, including current players I dont think is appropriate nor really fair to them, past greats - one wants to be able to apprise the complete body of work of a player, not moving targets).

Ohashi_Jouzu* · Apr 3, 2014

I like the order of Delvecchio/Abel/Ullman, but am a bit surprised that Datsyuk is the modern Detroit centre to work his way in between them instead of Fedorov, honestly.

seventieslord · Apr 3, 2014

I was interested to see that he put Ullman ahead of Delvecchio in the round 2 voting, in the one round when they were both up for voting. (He also moved Ullman ahead of Lach and Keon from one round to the next)

Also, I see he had Gilmour out of his top-8, but the following round he was in, and ahead of Stastny, who had made his top-8 previously

After a quick glance I see strong evidence that he wasn't too set in his ways and was swayed when compelling arguments were made.

unknown33 · Apr 3, 2014

Nice work, but I'm surprised about the ranking of some players compared to what his opinions looked like in his posts.

Hawkey Town 18 · Apr 3, 2014

unknown33 said:
Nice work, but I'm surprised about the ranking of some players compared to what his opinions looked like in his posts.

One thing I've learned about C1958...sometimes he's just offering an alternative viewpoint or suggesting something be looked into further and the way he words such things can make it sound like he's giving his opinion when really he is not...on the other hand, sometimes he is giving his opinion...can be tricky to distinguish between the two.

MXD · Apr 3, 2014

Careful with that Lemaire over Thornton! Apparently reasons to reject according to some of the luminaries.

Ohashi_Jouzu* · Apr 3, 2014

MXD said:
Careful with that Lemaire over Thornton! Apparently reasons to reject according to some of the luminaries.

I like how Lemaire, Carbonneau, Larionov slotted in there. I might have had Oates/Malkin in opposite order as bookends, though, as I'd argue that Malkin's offense has already proven more valuable and has stood on its own merit to a larger degree than Oates (Oates being "simply" one of the best playmakers of all time, as opposed to anything close to the best player at any time). There are also international competition considerations which make me lean towards Malkin in this case, but overall this list ain't too bad. Still think Datsyuk in particular is too high (would probably slot him in just ahead of where I'd have Oates here, honestly, which is at the end of that glut of defensive/2-way centres), but whatever.

Canadiens1958 · Apr 3, 2014

Comments

Three quick comments.

Defensive play was a key factor.

The completeness and maturation process that a player showed over the length of his career was a consideration(as opposed to longevity - two distinct concepts).

This put Datsyuk ahead of Fedorov and dropped Joe Thornton.Beliveau vs Lemieux.

Also tend to have very close ratings. In the Round 1 list a few could be viewed as ties with a leaning because ties were not allowed.

Dark Shadows · Apr 3, 2014

Canadiens1958 said:
Three quick comments.

Defensive play was a key factor.

The completeness and maturation process that a player showed over the length of his career was a consideration(as opposed to longevity - two distinct concepts).

This put Datsyuk ahead of Fedorov and dropped Joe Thornton.Beliveau vs Lemieux.

Also tend to have very close ratings. In the Round 1 list a few could be viewed as ties with a leaning because ties were not allowed.

I love seeing Henri Richard so high. And Keon.

One thing we always agreed on

VMBM · Apr 4, 2014

I like Dionne's placement, as I've always thought that he should be nearer the likes of Perreault (who was clearly better when they played on the same teams in international competition BTW) than the likes of Beliveau.

Clarke too high IMO; there are some knocks on him: shortish prime, not the greatest playoff resume, mediocre international record post-1972...

NHL-centric list, but at least it is mostly consistent - except for the huge gap between Larionov and Nedomansky (due to latter's lack of 2-way play?). And he stuck to his guns :laugh:

(i.e. no votes for Maltsev & Petrov)

Axxellien · Apr 4, 2014

This is getting boring!

3 Names=Don Mckenney

.......And Bronco Horvath! :rant:

Fleming MacKell!!!!!!!!!

Canadiens1958 · Apr 4, 2014

Vaclav Nedomansky

VMBM said:
I like Dionne's placement, as I've always thought that he should be nearer the likes of Perreault (who was clearly better when they played on the same teams in international competition BTW) than the likes of Beliveau.

Clarke too high IMO; there are some knocks on him: shortish prime, not the greatest playoff resume, mediocre international record post-1972...

NHL-centric list, but at least it is mostly consistent - except for the huge gap between Larionov and Nedomansky (due to latter's lack of 2-way play?). And he stuck to his guns (i.e. no votes for Maltsev & Petrov)

Vaclav Nedomansky, mainly due to his lack of play at center on WHA and NHL teams that were weak at center.

Maltsev and Petrov. Like Petrov, one of the rare Soviet RHS centers, but could not see either as being outstanding like a Datsyuk, Fedorov, Larionov, Malkin fashion. Nor did I see either as better than Sven Tumba given the respective supporting casts.

MXD · Apr 4, 2014

Axxellien said:
3 Names=Don Mckenney .......And Bronco Horvath! Fleming MacKell!!!!!!!!!

Why the absence of Fleming Mackell is a big thing if, say, Ken Mosdell's absence isn't ?

Axxellien · Apr 4, 2014

Kenny Mosdell

MXD said:
Why the absence of Fleming Mackell is a big thing if, say, Ken Mosdell's absence isn't ?

Yes, Kenny Mosdell is another one!!!!! :shakehead

Dennis Bonvie · Apr 4, 2014

PL60!

Saw a lot of Joe Thornton, eh?

Love the love of Tumba.

Can't agree on Dionne.

Most defense-oriented list for sure.

Boom Boom Bear · Apr 5, 2014

Dark Shadows said:
I love seeing Henri Richard so high. And Keon.

One thing we always agreed on

yep, they both turned up way too low in the final ranking, i like where you have them here

seventieslord · Apr 5, 2014

MXD said:
Why the absence of Fleming Mackell is a big thing if, say, Ken Mosdell's absence isn't ?

and how are any of them better than Kirk Muller?

VMBM · Apr 5, 2014

Canadiens1958 said:
Maltsev and Petrov. Like Petrov, one of the rare Soviet RHS centers, but could not see either as being outstanding like a Datsyuk, Fedorov, Larionov, Malkin fashion. Nor did I see either as better than Sven Tumba given the respective supporting casts.

I've never considered Larionov outstanding, but that's just me.

Oh yeah, Tumba at #53 was a novelty, missed that the first time. A legendary name, great numbers in international competition/Sweden and one of the first true superstars/celebrities in European hockey, but slightly hard to rate. For example, what about the level of competition in the 1950s/early 1960s etc.? And while he was voted the IIHF Directorate Best Forward in the 1957 and 1962 WHCs, the former tournament was boycotted by Canada (and USA) and the latter one was boycotted by USSR and Czechoslovakia. Some old e.g. Finnish sources praise his goal-scoring ability, but are sometimes critical of his overall play too.
Did you see him 'in the flesh', when he attended the Boston Bruins' training camp?

MXD · Apr 5, 2014

seventieslord said:
and how are any of them better than Kirk Muller?

They aren't -- I was just commenting on the comment on MacKell, and it made more sense to compare MacKell to a contemporary. I don't think those players being out are a big deal at all.

unknown33 · Apr 5, 2014

Just yesterday I made a post about how talking about how awesome and underrated the same group of players is in every single post hurts instead of helps their case. For me at least.

Mr. 50s Bruins is another prime example.

Canadiens1958 · Apr 5, 2014

Sven Tumba

VMBM said:
I've never considered Larionov outstanding, but that's just me.

Oh yeah, Tumba at #53 was a novelty, missed that the first time. A legendary name, great numbers in international competition/Sweden and one of the first true superstars/celebrities in European hockey, but slightly hard to rate. For example, what about the level of competition in the 1950s/early 1960s etc.? And while he was voted the IIHF Directorate Best Forward in the 1957 and 1962 WHCs, the former tournament was boycotted by Canada (and USA) and the latter one was boycotted by USSR and Czechoslovakia. Some old e.g. Finnish sources praise his goal-scoring ability, but are sometimes critical of his overall play too.
Did you see him 'in the flesh', when he attended the Boston Bruins' training camp?

No but some of the QHL players he faced later coached in our district and spoke very highly of him.

Canadiens1958 · Apr 5, 2014

Mackell etc vs Muller

seventieslord said:
and how are any of them better than Kirk Muller?

Relative to era all three were much better players than Kirk Muller. Muller was a two position player like Mckenney and Mackell but the comparison stops there.

Fleming Mackell - 1st AST center 1952-53. Viable Conn Smythe 1958.
Don Mckenney led NHL in assists 1959-60.
Bronco Horvath led (tied with Bobby Hull) NHL in goals 1959-60.Second in scoring.

Kirk Muller never made top ten in goals, assists, scoring. Distant consideration for AS teams. Never Conn Smythe quality playoffs. Maybe a more physical Donnie Marshall without the speed.

Note factor in longevity the discussion shifts in Muller's favour. Talent only and it is as outlined.

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