HOH Top-40 Goalies Voter Record - seventieslord

[seventieslord]

Round 1 List:
HOH Top-40 Goalies Voter Record - seventieslord - HFBoards

Players on the top-40 not ranked:

None

Switch Chabot and Kerr for Lundqvist and Thomas, and the top-40 here has the same 40 players as the final list.

Players on the top-40 ranked below #50:

None

Players exclusive to this list and no more than two others:

None

Players ranked highest on this list:

None

Players ranked lowest on this list:

Bill Durnan (21)
Johnny Mowers (60)

21 people did not rank Mowers.

Round 2 voting record:

Participation Record:

Click to read more...

 

[seventieslord]

this joker doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Only 38 out of the top 40? Pfft.

Why you gotta be hatin' on Bill Durnan like that?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

So basically, you really don't like Durnan, and other than that, you followed the boring ATD formula (including the initial high ranking of Chabot)?

Nice to see you change your mind on Martin Brodeur between Rounds 1 and 2

 

[seventieslord]

Keep in mind I've had a reasonably strong influence on that "ATD formula" becoming what it is today.

There were definitely guys I overrated and underrated heading in, and I think I corrected that for round 2.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Isn't the "ATD formula" just the Without Fear list with updated positioning and differing opinions on Benedict/Bower/Holecek/Tretiak vs. Durnan/Fuhr/Hainsworth/Vezina anyway? Don't get me wrong; I loved doing the project and believe our list is the best I've seen so far, but I think once the research was in on some of the above names and a few others, our goalie list ended up showing that while the rankings in the position aren't set in stone, there's a somewhat sedimentary grouping as you go down the list.

 

[seventieslord]

If the ATD is based on Without Fear, that's news to me...

 

[MXD]

Actually, other than Durnan being REALLY too low (relatively speaking), this is indeed an extremely boring list, Sir!

 

[quoipourquoi]

May I ask, what makes you so high on Ed Belfour (though apparently someone else had him Top-10)? In the survey thread, you seemed to be particularly critical of people equating playoff performance with the larger sample size of season performance (which explains your re-evaluation of Parent in Round 2), but there was a pretty good stretch of time in the 1990s when he wouldn't play like a Top-15 All-Time goaltender until the playoffs began, and his two save percentage titles came in years in which his top competition at the position were injured. It just strikes me as the established fourth-best of an era getting voted on prior to the best/second-best of other eras, and then a prolonged wait for the fifth/sixth/seventh-best from that same generation.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

May I ask, what makes you so high on Ed Belfour (though apparently someone else had him Top-10)? In the survey thread, you seemed to be particularly critical of people equating playoff performance with the larger sample size of season performance (which explains your re-evaluation of Parent in Round 2), but there was a pretty good stretch of time in the 1990s when he wouldn't play like a Top-15 All-Time goaltender until the playoffs began, and his two save percentage titles came in years in which his top competition at the position were injured. It just strikes me as the established fourth-best of an era getting voted on prior to the best/second-best of other eras, and then a prolonged wait for the fifth/sixth/seventh-best from that same generation.

Dreakmur's list was already posted with Belfour in 10th

I agree that it's a bit high; I like where Belfour went on the final list.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Dreakmur's list was already posted with Belfour in 10th

I agree that it's a bit high; I like where Belfour went on the final list.

Yeah, I don't mind the 11-20 range for him, but I'm just surprised to see a non-playoff priority argument to have him closer to the 11-end of the spectrum. I'm just wondering if I'm missing something from his regular season record that warrants me to put him higher than I did.

 

[seventieslord]

for starters, wasn't Belfour's reputation in the 90s the exact opposite of what you just said?

 

[quoipourquoi]

for starters, wasn't Belfour's reputation in the 90s the exact opposite of what you just said?

There was truth to that until 1993, but it was a reputation that lingered longer than it should have despite consistent evidence over the next seven years.

 

[seventieslord]

There was truth to that until 1993, but it was a reputation that lingered longer than it should have despite consistent evidence over the next seven years.

I still am confused by all this, because in 1992 he took his team to the Stanley Cup finals... as of 1993 he had to be considered a pretty good playoff guy, even following the sweep. It was 1994, 95 (for some reason), and 96 that earned him a bad supposed playoff resume.

Anyway, to answer the Belfour question now that I have more time:

I think that once you get past the obvious #7, the next 16 guys are extremely close, right down to Durnan. I'm not 100% sold on anything regarding Gardiner/Vezina/Benedict, ranking Lehman compared to them is difficult (or to Hainsworth/Thompson), Brimsek isn't really that much better than Broda/Durnan, I flip flopped on Parent/Espo in the end (and so did a lot of guys), Worters could easily be the best of the bunch, and Holecek has that x-factor of "some people think he was better than Tretiak" (which is also an x-factor for Tretiak)

So whatever gaps it looked like I had in there were very slim, and with the two best goalies of all-time as competition, the recognition he received on a year-to-year basis was not commensurate to his ongoing greatness as a goalie.

I like the top-25 of the final list more than the one in this thread though. I learned a lot here. But I mean it, that group is really close. You might have a shot at selling me on Durnan over Benedict, and that would through this whole thing helter skelter.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Thankfully, the Internet Archive's Wayback Machine captured the lists for this project, which were deleted during HF's adventure in software upgrades. Restoring them here in case the Wayback Machine link ever goes dead.

1	Patrick Roy
2	Dominik Hasek
3	Jacques Plante
4	Terry Sawchuk
5	Glenn Hall
6	Ken Dryden
7	Martin Brodeur
8	Vladislav Tretiak
9	Clint Benedict
10	Johnny Bower
11	Ed Belfour
12	Bernie Parent
13	Roy Worters
14	Charlie Gardiner
15	Tony Esposito
16	Frank Brimsek
17	Georges Vezina
18	Turk Broda
19	Hugh Lehman
20	Tiny Thompson
21	Bill Durnan
22	Jiri Holecek
23	George Hainsworth
24	Hap Holmes
25	Gump Worsley
26	Chuck Rayner
27	Ed Giacomin
28	Grant Fuhr
29	Harry Lumley
30	Billy Smith
31	Rogie Vachon
32	Curtis Joseph
33	Lorne Chabot
34	Alec Connell
35	Tom Barrasso
36	Roberto Luongo
37	Dave Kerr
38	Mike Liut
39	John Vanbiesbrouck
40	Percy Lesueur
41	Henrik Lundqvist
42	Gerry Cheevers
43	Tim Thomas
44	Mike Richter
45	Miikka Kiprusoff
46	Al Rollins
47	Vladimir Dzurilla
48	Riley Hern
49	Evgeni Nabokov
50	Chris Osgood
51	Mike Vernon
52	Normie Smith
53	Paddy Moran
54	John Ross Roach
55	Chico Resch
56	Andy Moog
57	Tom Paton
58	Roger Crozier
59	Jiri Kralik
60	Johnny Mowers

[TBODY] [/TBODY]