HOH Top-40 Goalies Voter Record - MadArcand

[seventieslord]

Round 1 List:
HOH Top-40 Goalies Voter Record - MadArcand - HFBoards

Players on the top-40 not ranked:

Henrik Lundqvist

Players on the top-40 ranked below #50:

None

Players exclusive to this list and no more than two others:

Sean Burke (49) – he was on two other lists as well

Players ranked highest on this list:

None

Players ranked lowest on this list:

Tom Paton (59)

Paton was left off of 19 lists as well.

Round 2 voting record:

Participation Record:

Click to read more...

 

[Hammer Time]

Interesting voting patterns, favouring older eras more than most other posters. Tim Thomas sticks out there though - the only modern goalie which is ranked higher than where most voters had him.

What makes Thomas unique? I'd assume it was emphasis on peak performance or playoffs that caused your high opinion on Thomas, but then Parent looks pretty low by that standard.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Players on the top-40 not ranked:

Henrik Lundqvist

Shocking!

 

[MadArcand]

Interesting voting patterns, favouring older eras more than most other posters. Tim Thomas sticks out there though - the only modern goalie which is ranked higher than where most voters had him.

What makes Thomas unique? I'd assume it was emphasis on peak performance or playoffs that caused your high opinion on Thomas, but then Parent looks pretty low by that standard.

Well there's been difference of 15 spots between them, so I dunno if I really had Parent low. The player I compared Thomas most to in my mind was actually Fuhr.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I applaud the support for Connell and Cheevers.

 

[seventieslord]

I applaud the support for Connell and Cheevers.

Remind me again why we should applaud support for Connell.

 

[MadArcand]

Remind me again why we should applaud support for Connell.

Because he was 10x better than Lundqvist?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Remind me again why we should applaud support for Connell.

Not we, me.

I would feel funny having a HHOFer with the best GAA (regular season & playoffs) not on a Top 40 list that I was part of.

 

[seventieslord]

Because he was 10x better than Lundqvist?

Based on.....?

 

[Michael Farkas]

Based on.....?

An unexplained hatred for Lundqvist.

 

[MadArcand]

Based on.....?

The fact that he actually accomplished something?

Sad thing is there was no case* presented for Lundqvist, yet he got voted in 'just because'.

* - I suppose there was a fairly compelling case about his voting placements, until quoipourquoi demolished it utterly.

 

[quoipourquoi]

The fact that he actually accomplished something?

Sad thing is there was no case* presented for Lundqvist, yet he got voted in 'just because'.

* - I suppose there was a fairly compelling case about his voting placements, until quoipourquoi demolished it utterly.

I wouldn't say that, but thank you. TDMM made an excellent case for Lundqvist's inclusion in the Top-40 (with which I still disagree), but I don't believe there was much reason for him to get placed ahead of his contemporaries in Luongo and Thomas - which was much of what I was responding against.

Honestly, I don't like the idea of having a goaltender on here who could feasibly play his way off of the list with additional seasons. Is Henrik Lundqvist really better than Jean-Sebastien Giguere was until his father's death in late-2008? Absolutely not. If he continues playing like he is, he's bound for the Top-25 - but if he doesn't, then hey, there's probably room for Gerry Cheevers after all.

 

[MadArcand]

I wouldn't say that, but thank you. TDMM made an excellent case for Lundqvist's inclusion in the Top-40 (with which I still disagree), but I don't believe there was much reason for him to get placed ahead of his contemporaries in Luongo and Thomas - which was much of what I was responding against.

Honestly, I don't like the idea of having a goaltender on here who could feasibly play his way off of the list with additional seasons. Is Henrik Lundqvist really better than Jean-Sebastien Giguere was until his father's death in late-2008? Absolutely not. If he continues playing like he is, he's bound for the Top-25 - but if he doesn't, then hey, there's probably room for Gerry Cheevers after all.

That's another thing that I found irksome - it felt like people were considering projection. I think Lundqvist is on the right track, but he's not there yet. He just accomplished less so far than many goalies that were left off the list.

 

[quoipourquoi]

That's another thing that I found irksome - it felt like people were considering projection. I think Lundqvist is on the right track, but he's not there yet. He just accomplished less so far than many goalies that were left off the list.

Yeah, I agree with you. He's been consistent, sure, and I think that was his best selling point, but he can lose that. Hell, that's the same age Giguere was in 2008, and he had two Finals appearances and a ring at that point.

I figure I should mention Giguere in every post until Mike stops calling him a "shooter tutor"...

 

[seventieslord]

The fact that he actually accomplished something?

Sad thing is there was no case* presented for Lundqvist, yet he got voted in 'just because'.

* - I suppose there was a fairly compelling case about his voting placements, until quoipourquoi demolished it utterly.

Literally not sure if serious.

I wouldn't say that, but thank you. TDMM made an excellent case for Lundqvist's inclusion in the Top-40 (with which I still disagree), but I don't believe there was much reason for him to get placed ahead of his contemporaries in Luongo and Thomas - which was much of what I was responding against.

Honestly, I don't like the idea of having a goaltender on here who could feasibly play his way off of the list with additional seasons. Is Henrik Lundqvist really better than Jean-Sebastien Giguere was until his father's death in late-2008? Absolutely not. If he continues playing like he is, he's bound for the Top-25 - but if he doesn't, then hey, there's probably room for Gerry Cheevers after all.

If you're "accomplishment counting", sure. But if you're looking at who was actually a better goalie, it's clearly Henrik. Would giguere make any serious observer's top-6 list at any time, aside from the summer of 2003?

 

[MadArcand]

Literally not sure if serious.

Of course I'm serious.

If you're "accomplishment counting", sure. But if you're looking at who was actually a better goalie, it's clearly Henrik. Would giguere make any serious observer's top-6 list at any time, aside from the summer of 2003?

Great. By my observation, Sean Burke was clearly better than Curtis Joseph. But we're not voting for the most talented or skilled goalies, we're voting for goalies with the best career. And accomplishments matter. Incomplete careers matter. Pelle Lindbergh might've been more talented than Tom Barrasso, but he won't end up higher on an all-time list.

 

[tarheelhockey]

If you're "accomplishment counting", sure. But if you're looking at who was actually a better goalie, it's clearly Henrik. Would giguere make any serious observer's top-6 list at any time, aside from the summer of 2003?

That's pretty much the way I see it. Giguere probably would have ranked on some serious observers' top-6 lists, but I don't think he was ever at a point where he was a consensus top-3 the way Lundqvist is now.

I think if we look over the historical trends, simply being a top-X goalie for a number of years in the contemporary NHL is an achievement in its own right. When all is said and done, even if his career ends tomorrow, Lundqvist has definitely been one of the very best goalies of the post-lockout era and I'm not sure why we would rank him off the list in favor of the 7th best goalie from whatever era. Unless we really are Cup- and award-counting, era differences have to amount to something in our evaluations.

If Lundqvist doesn't belong here, then we can pretty much write off the entire past decade as the realm of Luongo and Thomas. And that doesn't sound like an accurate description of goaltending during that period.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Lundqvist Vezina record: 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 6th
Giguere Vezina record: 4th, 8th, 9th, 9th*

*1 vote

Lundqvist career save percentage: .920
Giguere career save percentage: .913

Lundqvist goals above replacement: 341.7 (.072 per game)
Giguere goals above replacement: 307.8 (0.52 per game)

I don't understand the comparison

 

[quoipourquoi]

Lundqvist Vezina record: 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 6th
Giguere Vezina record: 4th, 8th, 9th, 9th*

*1 vote

Lundqvist career save percentage: .920
Giguere career save percentage: .913

Lundqvist goals above replacement: 341.7 (.072 per game)
Giguere goals above replacement: 307.8 (0.52 per game)

I don't understand the comparison

The comparison was Giguere up until 2008 (who you may remember was an excellent goaltender with two Finals appearances and a Conn Smythe Trophy despite health issues that necessitated a slightly smaller regular season workload - hence fewer Vezina votes for gaudy GP totals in down years), meaning that Giguere played his way off the list over the last five years, much like Lundqvist may if he does not maintain his consistency.

Career save percentages are still an abomination, but Lunqvist sits 4th right now. In 2008, Giguere sat 3rd in the regular season and 4th in the playoffs.

If Lundqvist remains consistent, he stands to move up. If his play drops off like Giguere's did following 2008, people are going to start going through those Vezina votes like tax auditors the same way we did to Ed Giacomin's All-Star votes, and they're going to find that there isn't much between 2007-2011 but GP, 2006 had a highly influential home save percentage, and he doesn't have a playoff resume to fall back on.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

If Lundqvist remains consistent, he stands to move up. If his play drops off like Giguere's did following 2008, people are going to start going through those Vezina votes like tax auditors the same way we did to Ed Giacomin's All-Star votes, and they're going to find that there isn't much between 2007-2011 but GP, 2006 had a highly influential home save percentage, and he doesn't have a playoff resume to fall back on.

I think that Lundqvist's Vezina votes got a lot more scrutiny than Giacomin's All-Star votes. Just look at where they both ended up getting voted in.

Edit: Giguere's GAR as of 2008 was 270.3 (0.65 per game over 411 games), definitely a step down from Lundqvist's numbers (0.72 per for 478 games)

 

[seventieslord]

Giguere was never on the list to play his way off of it.

Following his cup win, in atd8 he was selected 512th, his best ever or since. And that put him 50th among goalies. So no one really saw him as a top40 guy even at the time of his most advantageous snapshot.

 

[MadArcand]

Are we down to using whether someone gets picked in the ATD as barometer? So if Leaflander picks Potvin this year, he'll be top 50?

 

[MXD]

Are we down to using whether someone gets picked in the ATD as barometer? So if Leaflander picks Potvin this year, he'll be top 50?

That just means LeafLander wants a goon goalie.

If anything, Potvin had a very Joseph-like beginning of career. But the key word here is "beginning".

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Of course I'm serious.


Great. By my observation, Sean Burke was clearly better than Curtis Joseph. But we're not voting for the most talented or skilled goalies, we're voting for goalies with the best career. And accomplishments matter. Incomplete careers matter. Pelle Lindbergh might've been more talented than Tom Barrasso, but he won't end up higher on an all-time list.

Who said that?

I'm not voting that way.

 

[MadArcand]

That just means LeafLander wants a goon goalie.

If anything, Potvin had a very Joseph-like beginning of career. But the key word here is "beginning".

It's what Lundqvist has. A beginning.