HOH Non-NHL Europeans project - anybody interested?

[Theokritos]

To those interested in a non-NHL Europeans project: How many players do you want the final list to rank? 40, 60?

For reference: The four positional projects ended with an overall number of 19 non-NHL Europeans* making the final lists. Eight wingers, five defencemen, four centers and two goaltenders.

*Including the likes of Larionov and Fetisov.

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[TheDevilMadeMe]

To those interested in a non-NHL Europeans project: How many players do you want the final list to rank? 40, 60?

For reference: The four positional projects ended with an overall number of 19 non-NHL Europeans* making the final lists. Eight wingers, five defencemen, four centers and two goaltenders.

*Including the likes of Larionov and Fetisov.

I think that's something that would warrant its own thread (and vote) if we were to decent to do that project. I would say probably less than 60. I think a separate interest thread would be in order for a Euros project if you decide not to do this one. Personally, I think a non-NHL Euros project would only be worth doing at all if we had participation from a good number of European posters.

 

[tarheelhockey]

TBH I think even 40 would be kind of ambitious. We had some real difficulty finding good information on some of those 19 that we discussed.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

TBH I think even 40 would be kind of ambitious. We had some real difficulty finding good information on some of those 19 that we discussed.

This is why I think such a project (the non-NHL euros) is only really worth it if we get enough European participants

 

[Killion]

This is why I think such a project (the non-NHL euros) is only really worth it if we get enough European participants

You might want to consider posting Notice/Invitation threads here on hf on the Euro Boards, KHL. There are in fact quite a number of knowledgeable Members who I come across (certainly on the KHL Board) who may not be aware of these projects on HOH, be interested in participating in one ranking Top Euros & Russians.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

You might want to consider posting Notice/Invitation threads here on hf on the Euro Boards, KHL. There are in fact quite a number of knowledgeable Members who I come across (certainly on the KHL Board) who may not be aware of these projects on HOH, be interested in participating in one ranking Top Euros & Russians.

Great idea if and when such a project would occur.

 

[Killion]

Great idea if and when such a project would occur.

Yep. Saved you a trip to the grocery store huh?

 

[VMBM]

To those interested in a non-NHL Europeans project: How many players do you want the final list to rank? 40, 60?

At least 40, preferably 60; it would be nice to get some old non-NHL Finnish players like Lasse Oksanen, Jorma Valtonen, Veli-Pekka Ketola (though he did play in the NHL a little), Matti Keinonen etc. at least into the discussion, and I'm not sure if anyone of them is top-40 'material'.

I would think that the top 30-40 would be heavily 'populated' by Russian and Czech/Slovak players (and some Swedes), so I prefer 60 or 50. I admit, though, that I may not have very realistic picture of the project at the moment (since I haven't made or even thought about any lists yet).

 

[Canadiens1958]

International

To those interested in a non-NHL Europeans project: How many players do you want the final list to rank? 40, 60?

For reference: The four positional projects ended with an overall number of 19 non-NHL Europeans* making the final lists. Eight wingers, five defencemen, four centers and two goaltenders.

*Including the likes of Larionov and Fetisov.

Consider International participants. Non-NHL Europeans would exclude Ulf Sterner and Jaroslav Jirik. International participants would include Sterner and Jirik while expanding the participation to the various USA and Canadian International/Olympic Tournament participants as well.

 

[VMBM]

Consider International participants. Non-NHL Europeans would exclude Ulf Sterner and Jaroslav Jirik. International participants would include Sterner and Jirik while expanding the participation to the various USA and Canadian International/Olympic Tournament participants as well.

Well, if the project is going to exclude Sterner, Tord Lundström and the like, or even Makarov, Fetisov (i.e. players who should mostly be judged by their international resume), I have to say that I will stop being interested.

 

[Theokritos]

Excluding the likes of Sterner and Fetisov would defeat the whole purpose of the project, so they're certainly going to be eligible. A non-NHL European player would have to be defined as a European player with a maximum of two seasons in North American professional hockey behind him at the time of his 30th birthday. Or something similar.

 

[MXD]

Excluding the likes of Sterner and Fetisov would defeat the whole purpose of the project, so they're certainly going to be eligible. A non-NHL European player would have to be defined as a European player with a maximum of two seasons in North American professional hockey behind him at the time of his 30th birthday. Or something similar.

Its becoming confusing with both topics on the same thread...

But I think there is something wrong if Harry Watson is deemed uneligible because of not being European enough, despite never playing a single NHL game and his legal status.

 

[Theokritos]

Its becoming confusing with both topics on the same thread...

You're right. I've created a separate thread now.

But I think there is something wrong if Harry Watson is deemed uneligible because of not being European enough, despite never playing a single NHL game and his legal status.

I'd like to hear more opinions on this, but the original idea seemed to be that we would look into Europeans because those are the guys the HOH community knows the least about.

 

[Sanf]

But I think there is something wrong if Harry Watson is deemed uneligible because of not being European enough, despite never playing a single NHL game and his legal status.

I kind of agree, but the project is quite ambitious even if it counts only Europeans. Moose Watson would be still possible to list, but if we count him then what about the other quality players from the Allan Cup winners/senior teams from the early WC´s. I have done some background checking and there are others where we could make a case that he could have had pro career. We would need to make deeper dive to senior level hockey of that day and it would change the nature of the project quite a bit.

edit. I´m not sure if I´m able to participate so this was just my opinion not sign in to the project

 

[Canadiens1958]

Doubtful

You're right. I've created a separate thread now.



I'd like to hear more opinions on this, but the original idea seemed to be that we would look into Europeans because those are the guys the HOH community knows the least about.

Doubtful, HOH community knows more about Nikolai Sologubov than Jean-Paul lamirande even though both won Best Defencemen awards. Some of the USA goalies - Willard Ikola and Jack McCartan rank with Nikolai Puchov but are not as well known.

Discussing Viktor Konovalenko without Seth Martin only creates a void.

 

[steve141]

Excluding the likes of Sterner and Fetisov would defeat the whole purpose of the project, so they're certainly going to be eligible. A non-NHL European player would have to be defined as a European player with a maximum of two seasons in North American professional hockey behind him at the time of his 30th birthday. Or something similar.

That would exclude the alltime goal-scoring leader in the SEL, Hakan Loob, who played 11 seasons in the SEL on top of his NHL years. I think when we look closely at it we are going to find that almost all good Swedish players from about 1975 played some games in North American leagues. If they're not eligible, the project should be called The Early Russians/Czechs Project instead.

To me it doesn't really matter whether they played in the NHL/WHA for a time or not, the important part is what they did outside. Just like Red Kelly was ranked in the defenceman project based on the time he spent as a defenceman, these Europeans should be ranked based on the European and international games, disregarding any time spent in North America.

Consider International participants. Non-NHL Europeans would exclude Ulf Sterner and Jaroslav Jirik. International participants would include Sterner and Jirik while expanding the participation to the various USA and Canadian International/Olympic Tournament participants as well.

I don't think doing a Top International Player project is a bad idea either. It certainly would make it easier to compare players who played in different domestic leagues.

 

[MXD]

You're right. I've created a separate thread now.



I'd like to hear more opinions on this, but the original idea seemed to be that we would look into Europeans because those are the guys the HOH community knows the least about.

I kind of agree, but the project is quite ambitious even if it counts only Europeans. Moose Watson would be still possible to list, but if we count him then what about the other quality players from the Allan Cup winners/senior teams from the early WC´s. I have done some background checking and there are others where we could make a case that he could have had pro career. We would need to make deeper dive to senior level hockey of that day and it would change the nature of the project quite a bit.

edit. I´m not sure if I´m able to participate so this was just my opinion not sign in to the project

It was more about Watson's biggest feat being at the Olympics, a stage that is very important to assess non-nhl Europeans. Watson came before the explosion of hockey in the East, but he did participate to 1924's WOG, in which his team has beaten a Czechoslovakian team featuring a young Josef Malecek - who would probably get considered in the big list.

 

[Theokritos]

It was more about Watson's biggest feat being at the Olympics, a stage that is very important to assess non-nhl Europeans. Watson came before the explosion of hockey in the East, but he did participate to 1924's WOG, in which his team has beaten a Czechoslovakian team featuring a young Josef Malecek - who would probably get considered in the big list.

It's a bit early to tell, but personally I doubt a noteworthy number of pre-WW2 players will come up.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

You want to chase off the European posters this project so desperately needs? Require them to research pre-WW2 Canadian Olympians.

Anyway, I would participate and be willing to help admin this project IF we got significant Eurooan participation.

 

[Sanf]

Doubtful, HOH community knows more about Nikolai Sologubov than Jean-Paul lamirande even though both won Best Defencemen awards. Some of the USA goalies - Willard Ikola and Jack McCartan rank with Nikolai Puchov but are not as well known.

Discussing Viktor Konovalenko without Seth Martin only creates a void.

I agree that players like Lamirande drops in to hole when talking about WHC´s history. Seth Martins legacy is almost sole survivor from those amateur teams.

But when you start to rank players like Tregubov and Sologubov, Lamirandes name has to come up. Two tournaments, two golds and some say he was robbed the 1958 best defenseman award (did win it in 1959). He would become more familiar to everyone even when he wouldn´t be candidate to list.

 

[VMBM]

At least 40, preferably 60; it would be nice to get some old non-NHL Finnish players like Lasse Oksanen, Jorma Valtonen, Veli-Pekka Ketola (though he did play in the NHL a little), Matti Keinonen etc. at least into the discussion, and I'm not sure if anyone of them is top-40 'material'.

I would think that the top 30-40 would be heavily 'populated' by Russian and Czech/Slovak players (and some Swedes), so I prefer 60 or 50. I admit, though, that I may not have very realistic picture of the project at the moment (since I haven't made or even thought about any lists yet).

Of course, then there are also some 'modern' Finnish players like Ville Peltonen and Raimo Helminen, who were WHC/Olympic stars in the 1980s and/or 1990s/2000s - and probably even more so than their Finnish predecessors - but it's all very hard to judge right now how they compare to, say, Venyamin Alexandrov and Alexander Almetov.

Actually, I don't even know how e.g. Peltonen and Helminen compare to the aforementioned '60s/'70s Finnish legends. It seems that firstly one would have to do some sort of top 10 list for every true hockey nation (or top 20-25, in the case of Russia at least), and only after that one can start to compare players from different nations to each other. It'll be tough and tricky... but maybe worth it.

Heh, I don't mean that I suddenly had this revelation, "hey, this will require a lot of hard work", but it will be very tough, when you really think about it. We'll have to have an extensive preliminary discussion about e.g. how different domestic leagues/international tournaments and their stars in different times can be satisfyingly compared to one another.

 

[Theokritos]

You want to chase off the European posters this project so desperately needs? Require them to research pre-WW2 Canadian Olympians.

Good point.

But when you start to rank players like Tregubov and Sologubov, Lamirandes name has to come up. Two tournaments, two golds and some say he was robbed the 1958 best defenseman award (did win it in 1959). He would become more familiar to everyone even when he wouldn´t be candidate to list.

Right, and that could serve as initial spark for another project. North American amateur players on the international stage. Should be a separate project though.

 

[MXD]

You want to chase off the European posters this project so desperately needs? Require them to research pre-WW2 Canadian Olympians.

Anyway, I would participate and be willing to help admin this project IF we got significant Eurooan participation.

...Possibly. But that's about like saying participation in the HOH lists was lower due to the need to account for pre-consolidation players.

 

[Canadiens1958]

No

You want to chase off the European posters this project so desperately needs? Require them to research pre-WW2 Canadian Olympians.

Anyway, I would participate and be willing to help admin this project IF we got significant Eurooan participation.

No one would be required to do so. Simple distribution of labour - Canadians research Canadian players, Americans likewise, Europeans likewise.

This would allow each to focus on research in the language and data banks that they are most familiar with.

...

 

[Theokritos]

...

Of course, then there are also some 'modern' Finnish players like Ville Peltonen and Raimo Helminen, who were WHC/Olympic stars in the 1980s and/or 1990s/2000s - and probably even more so than their Finnish predecessors - but it's all very hard to judge right now how they compare to, say, Venyamin Alexandrov and Alexander Almetov.

Actually, I don't even know how e.g. Peltonen and Helminen compare to the aforementioned '60s/'70s Finnish legends.

This might be quite an issue. Ranking players across different eras has not been exactly uncontroversial in the previous projects and might in fact have discouraged one member or another from participating altogether. In a European All-Time project the challenge would be even bigger. Vladimír Zábrodský and Vladimír Martinec were both among the very best European players of their respective generation, but does that mean both belong in the same tier? Look at how the Czechs usually rank them and you see their answer is yes, sure they belong together. But consider the global context: There is no doubt that Martinec was one of the world's finest forwards in the 1970s. Zábrodský on the other hand? For all we know it's anything but impossible he would have failed to land a job in the 1940s NHL if he was born in Canada. Big fish in a small pond scenario, and the pond is not only rather small in comparison with the newer times but also in comparison with 1940s Canada.

So maybe we should split up the European project into a couple of periodical sections? Sections with separate players lists (maybe top-20)? Section 1: Top-20 players whose prime was prior to 1963 (when top Europeans were on the level of Canadian amateurs.) Section 2: Players whose prime was ~1963-1969/1972 (when top Europeans surpassed the level of Canadian amateurs). And so on.