Hockey Canada Registrations & The High Costs of Hockey

[cutchemist42]

Alberta Minor Midget AAA last season costs.

Registration: $3,750.00
Cash calls: $750.00
Hockey academy: $2800.00
New equipment:$800.00
New skates including balancing: $1200.00
Off season training: $2500.00
6 x hockey sticks: $1800.00
Travel (Out of town, provincials, WHL training camp):$7000.00 (Varies but we had a long journey for WHL Camp. If no provincials or WHL camp $5500.00 less)

The miscellaneous of driving to the rink, coffees, laces, tape, skate sharpenings are not included in the above.

With costs like that, it really makes me wonder how small the talent pool truly is. Those are costs you'd expect from something like equestrian or karting.

 

[Yukon Joe]

That's still $4500, an absurd amount of money to pay for recreation. That's golf, polo type money. What are the youth talent streams looking like in those sports?

Basically, rich kids can compete and poor kids can watch from the bench? Once you get to the the travel level, the poor kids can go home?

Well, what's important to you?

Is participation important? Getting kids to enjoy the game,know the value of hard work and working together as a team? Well if so you can get your kid involved at a high (but not outrageous) cost.

Or is it player development? Producing as many of the best hockey players in the world, to develop players for the NHL and olympics? Well if so the cost of doing that is very high, and it's up to parents to front the bill.

 

[Yukon Joe]

With costs like that, it really makes me wonder how small the talent pool truly is. Those are costs you'd expect from something like equestrian or karting.

The thing is there seems to be no shortage of parents willing to sign their kids up for all those expensive lessons and cost-is-no-object equipment.

 

[BadgerBruce]

Well, what's important to you?

Is participation important? Getting kids to enjoy the game,know the value of hard work and working together as a team? Well if so you can get your kid involved at a high (but not outrageous) cost.

Or is it player development? Producing as many of the best hockey players in the world, to develop players for the NHL and olympics? Well if so the cost of doing that is very high, and it's up to parents to front the bill.

There was a time not so long ago, Yukon, when no such choice had to be made. I believe that is the central point in this thread. The ability and desire to play at higher levels was key, and the financial wherewithal of the parents didn't play much of a part at all.

 

[Yukon Joe]

There was a time not so long ago, Yukon, when no such choice had to be made. I believe that is the central point in this thread. The ability and desire to play at higher levels was key, and the financial wherewithal of the parents didn't play much of a part at all.

But there's a reason why this is.

We know a lot more about how to develop elite athletes than we did 30 or 40 years ago. Today's athletes, including hockey players, are miles ahead of those old-time players. But all of that is incredibly expensive.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Quebec Costs

Brief overview of registration costs in Quebec:

Hockey Magog:

http://www.ahmm.ca/inscription-2017-29-fr.php

That's $99.00 for pre-novice to $325.00 for junior.

Hockey Sherbrooke, tad more expensive:

http://www.hockeysherbrooke.qc.ca/fr/page/inscriptions_2017-2018/couts_et_modalites.html

Usually family discounts apply.

Midget Espoir the main feeder to Midget AAA costs in the $0.00 to $8,000.00 range.

Midget AAA in the case of Jonathan Drouin cost about $11,000.00.

http://www.tvasports.ca/2014/09/17/midget-aaa--lelite-a-un-prix

Will get more data by next week.

Comments about arenas and registration.

Arenas. Key question is usage year round. Some of the small town arenas - one rink, would be used for otherna usage events from mid April thru August. These are being phased out and replaced by 2-4 rink hockey complexes used 12 months of the year. 1 for 1 in terms of arenas but upwards of 1-4 in terms of ice pads per arena and rough 7 months vs now 12 months.

The other factor is the growth of school hockey - federated information about registration shows up in Hockey Quebec and Hockey Canada data. Non-federated flies under the radar.

Regardless the youngsters playing school hockey do so mainly during traditional dark hours between 8AM and 5PM weekdsays. An extra 9 hours of arena usage per school weekday during the school hockey season. So arenas are used more efficiently,

Finally you have the elite, non-federated summer hockey. Flies under the registration radar. Still the arenas are used.

 

[Inkling]

I kinda hear that common theme coming from people in Canada, that participation was higher and the sport was cheaper and more attainable when it was school based. Maybe that's the answer. Maybe it is as simple as taking the sport away from the clubs and the "non-profits" and give it back to the schools.

Where does the money come from in the high school model? Nothing comes for free and if registration is only $300-500, then that's not covering expenses.

 

[Wolf357]

My little guy is 4..I'm really looking forward to him playing hocking but cringing at the future costs..
My buddies kid is about 12 and I tell ya..it's all his vacation time..all his disposable and non disposable money (he has gone into debt for his kids hockey.
IMO the single biggest change since I played hockey in the '80s is that IT SIMPLEY NEVER ENDS! It goes from club hockey, to Spring Hockey, to Hockey Academies in the Summer..it is all year...I played club hockey in my small rural town from November 1 to April 1 (played on real ice) and that was it...played with hand me down equipment and a wooden stick...

 

[Ciao]

Hockey is a rich kids sport.

We eventually gave up hockey and took up downhill skiing. It was much less expensive, and the whole family could do it together.

 

[USAUSA1]

3k for registration is ridiculous. If I was the nhl and nhlpa, I would be very concern about the highway robbery going on in youth hockey.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Well, what's important to you?

Is participation important? Getting kids to enjoy the game,know the value of hard work and working together as a team? Well if so you can get your kid involved at a high (but not outrageous) cost.

Or is it player development? Producing as many of the best hockey players in the world, to develop players for the NHL and olympics? Well if so the cost of doing that is very high, and it's up to parents to front the bill.

That's a false dilemma. Player development benefits when the game is available to a wider audience.

Why? For one thing, a much deeper talent pool will kick the crap out of a much shallower one. You can train those 1-percenters all you want, but you can't make them talented. Pulling from the other 99% of the population means you get the best athletes available, and then you build on that talent by feeding the very best of them into the national program where profit motives shouldn't be a factor at all.

What we have right now is a system which drives the majority of the talent pool away from seriously dedicating themselves to hockey before they even reach physical maturity. By age 10, the middle class kids who can't afford year-round personal training are already too far behind their wealthier peers skill-wise to continue competing for spots on top teams. So the wealthier kids move up the ladder, even if they turn out NOT to be bigger/stronger/faster in the long run. Eventually you get a bunch of relatively inferior athletes at the top of the pyramid, because the majority of the elite natural talent is being cut out of the system.

Beyond the actual players, everything else about hockey development benefits when it's widely available. More players means more rinks, which means more available ice time for development activity. A broader market for equipment and training means companies invest more heavily in producing the best technology possible. More players means more leagues, which means more coaches, which means pathways to success for talented teachers of the game. These are the foundations of player successful development. Currently they are withering as participation shrinks rapidly. That can only be a negative for pipeline development.

To answer your question, what's important to me is that hockey remains a sport that anyone can play, and expect to be successful according to their innate talents and dedication. Seeing it become an exclusive, wealth-driven industry frankly makes me a bit sick to my stomach. If this trend isn't reversed soon, it'll be the death of the sport as we have known it for the past century.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Wider

^^^Wider as in greater radius or circumference tends to create a deeper talent pool since competition and involvement is enhanced. A deeper but tight or compact pool eventually becomes counter-productive, evidenced by the nineties drop in Canadien and Soviet/Russian hockey participation.

Changes in Canada the last 10 to 15 years are slowly turning the situation around.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Funding

Where does the money come from in the high school model? Nothing comes for free and if registration is only $300-500, then that's not covering expenses.

Taxes fund education and arenas so there is a synergy. You also have all the usually funding sources from sponsorships, to gate and TV revenues, fundraising initiatves, foundation and alumni money, etc.

 

[BraveCanadian]

But there's a reason why this is.

We know a lot more about how to develop elite athletes than we did 30 or 40 years ago. Today's athletes, including hockey players, are miles ahead of those old-time players. But all of that is incredibly expensive.

You can drive a truck through the gaps in this argument and I'm glad tarheel did.

 

[USAUSA1]

Looking at other sports, it's no difference. Aau basketball can cost up to $4000. Your kids don't have to join these elite programs. Somebody is getting rich off these kids.

 

[Ciao]

Looking at other sports, it's no difference. Aau basketball can cost up to $4000. Your kids don't have to join these elite programs. Somebody is getting rich off these kids.

Stuart Hyman did .

 

[tarheelhockey]

Looking at other sports, it's no difference. Aau basketball can cost up to $4000. Your kids don't have to join these elite programs. Somebody is getting rich off these kids.

If the most elite level of travel hockey cost "up to" $4000, there wouldn't be a crisis.

The problem is that travel hockey costs that much as more of an average... BEFORE you even think about equipment, which is multiples more expensive than a pair of basketball shoes. And this is not avoidable at the elite level. If they're flat out too poor to play AAU, talented basketball players can stick to their high school and work to become a standout in college. Even if they never make the NBA, a poor kid playing college ball has already succeeded beyond his family's wildest dreams. There is no equivalent in hockey. You either get into top level programs as a youth, or you're finished as a prospect. Uncoached 10 year olds are done, too far behind the curve to recover. Dream over.

But you're right that they don't *have* to play at an elite level. They can stay rec players. Or, if they're serious athletes, they can take up a different sport. Which is exactly what they are doing en masse. If we're ok with the sport withering at the youth level, this is fine.

 

[Lotusflower]

IMO,

Since 08/09, the loose credit policies and money printing has done a number on the "middle class" they're quickly becoming the working poor, if they weren't already before.

The wage scale isn't keeping up.

On top of the economic decline of the west, CTE in Ice Hockey and Football has become a much bigger topic.

I don't think I could let a child play football in this day and age, it's just too much head to head contact. At least in hockey, one or two concussion is fine IF YOU LET THEM HEAL PROPERLY. After one or two, it's time to retire. However, there are huge costs involved in Hockey with ice time/tournaments.

The sport that I think will have huge growth in North America, is lacrosse, more specifically box lacrosse.

Much cheaper, practice anywhere, more entertaining then hockey at the professional level (NLL). Sure you still have some concussions, but no contact sport is without risk.

It's really the best of all worlds, very fast, hard hitting, not that expensive to play etc.

When Hell freezes over perhaps

 

[SCBlueLiner]

Where does the money come from in the high school model? Nothing comes for free and if registration is only $300-500, then that's not covering expenses.

The same place the money comes from for the football, basketball, wrestling, etc. teams. It comes from the school's athletic budget. It is also supported by booster clubs who raise funds. One thing you have to take into account is the cheap cost of ice in most Minnesota towns. In the major cities like Chicago in the U.S. ice costs can be $300-$350 an hour. In Minnesota I've seen it as low as $75, even free, literally like open gym where the kids have open time slots to come play stick & puck for free. Most of the ice facilities were built as a partnership with the local municipality and are operated under the Parks & Rec department of the city. It's a community facility, not a private enterprise, and that keeps costs down.

How are schools built? Isn't there usually a gymnasium built attached to the school? Property tax revenues and bonding. Hockey gets the same treatment as the other sports. In short, public funds support the hockey programs.

 

[SCBlueLiner]

That's a false dilemma. Player development benefits when the game is available to a wider audience.

Why? For one thing, a much deeper talent pool will kick the crap out of a much shallower one. You can train those 1-percenters all you want, but you can't make them talented. Pulling from the other 99% of the population means you get the best athletes available, and then you build on that talent by feeding the very best of them into the national program where profit motives shouldn't be a factor at all.

What we have right now is a system which drives the majority of the talent pool away from seriously dedicating themselves to hockey before they even reach physical maturity. By age 10, the middle class kids who can't afford year-round personal training are already too far behind their wealthier peers skill-wise to continue competing for spots on top teams. So the wealthier kids move up the ladder, even if they turn out NOT to be bigger/stronger/faster in the long run. Eventually you get a bunch of relatively inferior athletes at the top of the pyramid, because the majority of the elite natural talent is being cut out of the system.

Beyond the actual players, everything else about hockey development benefits when it's widely available. More players means more rinks, which means more available ice time for development activity. A broader market for equipment and training means companies invest more heavily in producing the best technology possible. More players means more leagues, which means more coaches, which means pathways to success for talented teachers of the game. These are the foundations of player successful development. Currently they are withering as participation shrinks rapidly. That can only be a negative for pipeline development.

To answer your question, what's important to me is that hockey remains a sport that anyone can play, and expect to be successful according to their innate talents and dedication. Seeing it become an exclusive, wealth-driven industry frankly makes me a bit sick to my stomach. If this trend isn't reversed soon, it'll be the death of the sport as we have known it for the past century.

Nailed it!

 

[cutchemist42]

If the most elite level of travel hockey cost "up to" $4000, there wouldn't be a crisis.

The problem is that travel hockey costs that much as more of an average... BEFORE you even think about equipment, which is multiples more expensive than a pair of basketball shoes. And this is not avoidable at the elite level. If they're flat out too poor to play AAU, talented basketball players can stick to their high school and work to become a standout in college. Even if they never make the NBA, a poor kid playing college ball has already succeeded beyond his family's wildest dreams. There is no equivalent in hockey. You either get into top level programs as a youth, or you're finished as a prospect. Uncoached 10 year olds are done, too far behind the curve to recover. Dream over.

But you're right that they don't *have* to play at an elite level. They can stay rec players. Or, if they're serious athletes, they can take up a different sport. Which is exactly what they are doing en masse. If we're ok with the sport withering at the youth level, this is fine.

In relation to this post since it triggered this thought, but asking outloud.....

Back in the 60s/70s when maybe hockey was more easily priced for middle/low income families, would you say NHL/elite talent still had a chance to make it despite their family's situation? Was possible elite talent being priced out?

Is there any question now if we are pricing out possible elite talent that are moving to other sports?

I just really am amazed sometimes at how big a league the NHL is if the talent pool we are drawing from represents such a small part of the population.

 

[TheTotalPackage]

I know it's tough to pinpoint, but is there a general time we can look back to where hockey turned the page from a sport that practically everyone was able to afford to one where mainly high income families could?

I remember when I started out roughly 25 years ago, house league hockey cost $90 (!), which would incrementally increase by $5 or $10 every year or two. Fast forward a decade later, and the cost was pushing $300-400.

I never played rep (couldn't be bothered with the politics nor wanted to burden my family both financially and commitment/time wise), but I don't recall friends who did having to make it a 4-day a week, 12-month type of thing. Most hockey players would play baseball or soccer in the summer, not attend skating/hockey camps.

Forget about just the cost, I don't understand how families are willing to commit (force?) their 12-year old to hockey year round without burning both the kid and parent(s) out. It's insane the schedules these kids have that I've heard. Even worse if multiple kids are involved.

 

[Melrose Munch]

To participate and play the sport of hockey at the youth level it can be relatively inexpensive, if there is no ambition to play at the "next level", whatever that next level may be. In that way, the rich can simply outspend the lesser off and make the game their own private party.

Where this does not happen is in Minnesota. I know somebody mentioned this state earlier but they are wrong. In Minnesota hockey is still tied to the schools and High School hockey is king. The cost to play for the school is as little as a $300-$500 registration fee, depending on your school district. The High School hockey model keeps costs down and allows your average middle class kid the opportunity to compete at a high level of hockey. Do I even need to get into the overwhelming number of Minnesotans who signed D1 hockey scholarships just this last year? The High School model works. That's where USA Hockey should focus their efforts rather than the Tier 1 & Tier 2 Club models.

Now, are there examples in Minnesota where you can spend an unlimited amount of money on the latest equipment and specialized training and off-ice workouts and on down the line? Yes there are. The opportunity is there, however, to play hockey "on the cheap" and to excel and be recognized and move up to the "next level" if you simply have the talent. The community backing is still there to help these kids to make it too.

For perspective, we don't live in Minnesota, rather, in a border state, and have spent years playing teams from over there and have spent a lot of time in Minnesota hockey rinks. I have seen firsthand how the system is set up. My oldest plays Tier 1 Midgets now. I can only wish we lived in Minnesota and had the option of good high school hockey for my kids.

I kinda hear that common theme coming from people in Canada, that participation was higher and the sport was cheaper and more attainable when it was school based. Maybe that's the answer. Maybe it is as simple as taking the sport away from the clubs and the "non-profits" and give it back to the schools.

Where does the money come from in the high school model? Nothing comes for free and if registration is only $300-500, then that's not covering expenses.

The same place the money comes from for the football, basketball, wrestling, etc. teams. It comes from the school's athletic budget. It is also supported by booster clubs who raise funds. One thing you have to take into account is the cheap cost of ice in most Minnesota towns. In the major cities like Chicago in the U.S. ice costs can be $300-$350 an hour. In Minnesota I've seen it as low as $75, even free, literally like open gym where the kids have open time slots to come play stick & puck for free. Most of the ice facilities were built as a partnership with the local municipality and are operated under the Parks & Rec department of the city. It's a community facility, not a private enterprise, and that keeps costs down.

How are schools built? Isn't there usually a gymnasium built attached to the school? Property tax revenues and bonding. Hockey gets the same treatment as the other sports. In short, public funds support the hockey programs.

The same way the schools can fund track and field, basketball and football, hockey can be done.

The thing is there seems to be no shortage of parents willing to sign their kids up for all those expensive lessons and cost-is-no-object equipment.

There's a shortage of new Canadians and that's the problem. The costs are keeping too many people out.

Alberta Minor Midget AAA last season costs.

Registration: $3,750.00
Cash calls: $750.00
Hockey academy: $2800.00
New equipment:$800.00
New skates including balancing: $1200.00
Off season training: $2500.00
6 x hockey sticks: $1800.00
Travel (Out of town, provincials, WHL training camp):$7000.00 (Varies but we had a long journey for WHL Camp. If no provincials or WHL camp $5500.00 less)

The miscellaneous of driving to the rink, coffees, laces, tape, skate sharpenings are not included in the above.

Brief overview of registration costs in Quebec:

Hockey Magog:

http://www.ahmm.ca/inscription-2017-29-fr.php

That's $99.00 for pre-novice to $325.00 for junior.

Hockey Sherbrooke, tad more expensive:

http://www.hockeysherbrooke.qc.ca/fr/page/inscriptions_2017-2018/couts_et_modalites.html

Usually family discounts apply.

Midget Espoir the main feeder to Midget AAA costs in the $0.00 to $8,000.00 range.

Midget AAA in the case of Jonathan Drouin cost about $11,000.00.

http://www.tvasports.ca/2014/09/17/midget-aaa--lelite-a-un-prix

Will get more data by next week.

Comments about arenas and registration.

Arenas. Key question is usage year round. Some of the small town arenas - one rink, would be used for otherna usage events from mid April thru August. These are being phased out and replaced by 2-4 rink hockey complexes used 12 months of the year. 1 for 1 in terms of arenas but upwards of 1-4 in terms of ice pads per arena and rough 7 months vs now 12 months.

The other factor is the growth of school hockey - federated information about registration shows up in Hockey Quebec and Hockey Canada data. Non-federated flies under the radar.

Regardless the youngsters playing school hockey do so mainly during traditional dark hours between 8AM and 5PM weekdsays. An extra 9 hours of arena usage per school weekday during the school hockey season. So arenas are used more efficiently,

Finally you have the elite, non-federated summer hockey. Flies under the registration radar. Still the arenas are used.

Just ugly. That is groceries, mortgages, heating costs down the drain.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Back in the 60s/70s when maybe hockey was more easily priced for middle/low income families, would you say NHL/elite talent still had a chance to make it despite their family's situation? Was possible elite talent being priced out?

Other forumers like C58 and Killion are probably better positioned to talk about the day-to-day of hockey life during that era. But I think you can get a pretty good idea by just looking at the top talent that did make it, and what their parents did for a living.

Bobby Orr's dad worked in a dynamite factory.

Bobby Hull's dad worked in a cement plant.

Guy Lafleur's dad was a welder.

Stan Mikita's dad was a Czechoslovakian textile factory worker, his mom a farmer. At age 8 he moved to Canada after being adopted by his aunt and uncle, who were of course first-generation immigrants.


These stars were from truly middle class, blue collar families. Compare to the top stars of today.

Sidney Crosby's dad is a law clerk.

Patrick Kane's father owns a car dealership.

Carey Price's father is the administrator of an adult learning center. His mother is a First Nations chieftain.


Bear in mind these are 90s kids, who came up the system when it was still in transition to the current environment. Give it another 15 years and this is going to be a list of lawyers, doctors, retired pro athletes.

 

[cutchemist42]

Other forumers like C58 and Killion are probably better positioned to talk about the day-to-day of hockey life during that era. But I think you can get a pretty good idea by just looking at the top talent that did make it, and what their parents did for a living.

Bobby Orr's dad worked in a dynamite factory.

Bobby Hull's dad worked in a cement plant.

Guy Lafleur's dad was a welder.

Stan Mikita's dad was a Czechoslovakian textile factory worker, his mom a farmer. At age 8 he moved to Canada after being adopted by his aunt and uncle, who were of course first-generation immigrants.


These stars were from truly middle class, blue collar families. Compare to the top stars of today.

Sidney Crosby's dad is a law clerk.

Patrick Kane's father owns a car dealership.

Carey Price's father is the administrator of an adult learning center. His mother is a First Nations chieftain.


Bear in mind these are 90s kids, who came up the system when it was still in transition to the current environment. Give it another 15 years and this is going to be a list of lawyers, doctors, retired pro athletes.

Yeah great way to illustrate it. Should have thought about it that way as I know my Croatian grandparents loved Frank Mahovlich who came from their town of Schumacher and had a typical first generation, low-income upbringing.

So yeah, it really makes me wonder how truly shallow the talent pool is we are pulling from? I guess wonder what are the paths of someone coming from a household of say $45,000-60,000....what is that kid's path towards professional/college/CHL hockey? How much oh a handicap does that kid start out with?