Hjalmarsson > Gunnarsson? (Advanced Stats for Defensive Dmen)
- Thread starter Jot
- Start date
hohosaregood
Banned
- Sep 1, 2011
- 32,401
- 12,608
WarriorOfGandhi
Was saying Boo-urns
go to NHL.com and compare their boxscore stats
go to behindthenet.com and compare their advanced stats
go to behindthenet.com and compare their advanced stats
Jot
Registered User
So... show me, prove that Hjalmarsson is > Gunnarsson.
Im sure if a poll was done with the 2 it would be incredibly lopsided in Hjalmarsson's favor and rightfully so.
The Thin White Duke
Registered User
- Aug 11, 2009
- 3,909
- 1
Ok but how much weight does QoC/zone starts hold over Corsi/Fenwick? Leafs don't have a Towes or Hossa to make Gunnarsson's job any easier too.
Jot
Registered User
Hjalmarsson
Quality of Competition: 6th league wide amongst dmen.
Offensive zone start %: 48.3%
On Ice Corsi: +6.77
Corsi Relative QoC: -8.4
Goals Against On ice/60: 2.05
Teams GA Off-Ice/60: 2.27
On Ice Sv%: .915
On Ice Sv% SH: .873
TOI: 21:16
SH TOI: 2:49
Blocks: 157
Hits: 39
Takeaways: 21
Giveaways: 100
+/- : +11
Gunnarsson
Quality of Competition: 1st league wide amongst dmen.
Offensive zone start %: 38.5%
On Ice Corsi: -23.22
Corsi Relative QoC: -10.6
Goals Against On/60: 2.18
Teams GA Off-Ice/60: 2.84
On Ice Sv%: .936
On Ice Sv% SH: .899
TOI: 19:24
SH TOI: 2:56
Blocks: 176
Hits: 166
Takeaways: 29
Giveaways: 65
+/- : +12
What other stats can i look at? This doesn't give me a clear indication that Hjalmarsson is better.
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Jot
Registered User
Perhaps Gunnarsson is a weird example. He technically had his best season ever. Lets see if i run into issues with Gorges.
Hjalmarsson
Quality of Competition: 6th league wide amongst dmen.
Offensive zone start %: 48.3%
On Ice Corsi: +6.77
Corsi Relative QoC: -8.4
Goals Against On ice/60: 2.05
Teams GA Off-Ice/60: 2.27
On Ice Sv%: .915
On Ice Sv% SH: .873
TOI: 21:16
SH TOI: 2:49
Blocks: 157
Hits: 39
Takeaways: 21
Giveaways: 100
+/- : +11
Gorges
Quality of Competition: 37th league wide amongst dmen.
Offensive zone start %: 42.1%
On Ice Corsi: -10.46
Corsi Relative QoC: -4.6
Goals Against On/60: 1.79
Teams GA Off-Ice/60: 2.27
On Ice Sv%: .939
On Ice Sv% SH: .907
TOI: 21:14
SH TOI: 3:21
Blocks: 177
Hits: 97
Takeaways: 11
Giveaways: 29
+/- : +6
Err, maybe Gorges is having a career year too?
Hjalmarsson
Quality of Competition: 6th league wide amongst dmen.
Offensive zone start %: 48.3%
On Ice Corsi: +6.77
Corsi Relative QoC: -8.4
Goals Against On ice/60: 2.05
Teams GA Off-Ice/60: 2.27
On Ice Sv%: .915
On Ice Sv% SH: .873
TOI: 21:16
SH TOI: 2:49
Blocks: 157
Hits: 39
Takeaways: 21
Giveaways: 100
+/- : +11
Gorges
Quality of Competition: 37th league wide amongst dmen.
Offensive zone start %: 42.1%
On Ice Corsi: -10.46
Corsi Relative QoC: -4.6
Goals Against On/60: 1.79
Teams GA Off-Ice/60: 2.27
On Ice Sv%: .939
On Ice Sv% SH: .907
TOI: 21:14
SH TOI: 3:21
Blocks: 177
Hits: 97
Takeaways: 11
Giveaways: 29
+/- : +6
Err, maybe Gorges is having a career year too?
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The Podium
Registered User
Eye test is subjective and influenced by the players respective team. If the teams forwards are constantly exposing the D than they make the D jobs look difficult making them look worse and vice versa
SmellOfVictory
Registered User
- Jun 3, 2011
- 10,959
- 653
What's not clear about that? An on-ice shot attempt differential of 30 attempts/60 minutes of play better for Hjalmarsson is hugely in his favour. I don't think any amount of correcting for quality of teammates or the 10% zonestart differential could account for that massive a difference.
Problem is that stats like Quality of competition, corsi etc are basically useless when trying to compare them from team to team. They are just as heavily influenced by their respective teams as the eye test.
Jot
Registered User
Isn't corsi more of a team stat?
Your worse corsi player (Brookbank) is better than our best corsi player (Gardiner)? Difference being 10 shot attempts/60 minutes of play.
The Podium
Registered User
Semantics
PUBLIC ENEMY #1
That wouldn't work, the Leafs play a system designed to keep them hemmed in their own zone for as long as possible.
The problem with the Leafs is Carlyle. He has every defense pair just fire a puck through the neutral zone for a forward to tip in deep. It results in far more icing calls than the average team (when the forward doesn't tip the puck), and it results in the Leafs just throwing away puck possession when they are unable to recover it.
Jake [Gardiner] vs Randy
Jake vs Randy II
Leafs zone entries
The best way to compare players is to look at what the data says are the differences, then watch game tape to try and figure out why those differences are there. Humans are particularly awful at being "eye witnesses" -- see: Scott Fraser - the problem with eyewitness testimony.
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Diatomic
Mitch Matthewlander
lol at OP's obvious attempt to try and prove that Gunnarsson is better then Hjalmarsson, without actually coming out and saying it.
We get it, Gunnar is a good shut down Dman and he may be a little underrated on this site(Threads like these obviously say otherwise).
But he's still not as good as a guy like Hammer. Advanced stats should only be used in a very small context. Watching both players its pretty obvious that Hammer is the better player. He's one of the very best at shutting down the opposition. Gunnar is good, but he's not in that group of the very best.
We get it, Gunnar is a good shut down Dman and he may be a little underrated on this site(Threads like these obviously say otherwise).
But he's still not as good as a guy like Hammer. Advanced stats should only be used in a very small context. Watching both players its pretty obvious that Hammer is the better player. He's one of the very best at shutting down the opposition. Gunnar is good, but he's not in that group of the very best.
Gunnarsson's defensive partner is Dion Phaneuf and Hammer's is Johnny Oduya if you want to also take that into consideration.
And to the OP, Hammer is better than both Gunnarsson and Gorges.
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Gunnarson was 4th on the leafs in terms of TOI. He averaged 19:25 and he was playing behind studs like Phaneuf, Gardiner and Franson. Hjalmarsson was 3rd on the hawks averaging 21:17, i think you can guess who was ahead of him. Hjalmarsson gets the toughest matchups for chicago most of the time, that says something about his play when you have players like Keith and Seabrook on your team
its one thing to play vs good players, you have to do well against them too
its one thing to play vs good players, you have to do well against them too
Semantics
PUBLIC ENEMY #1
Wow, I never would have thought Gunnarsson would even make a team like the Blackhawks, but these stats are incredible. I can't argue with the numbers, it seems that Gunnarsson is in fact the better player!
Uncle Scrooge
Hockey Bettor
Well they are pretty even in my opinion without looking at any stats.
And while its true Chicago has Toews etc. Gunnarsson plays with Phaneuf who is a lot better than Oduya.
To be honest i think its impossible to compare defensive dmen with 100% certainty. Its just about preference.
