Highest Potential : Hagens, McKenna, Dupont or Schultz?

[Pavel Buchnevich]

His stats are lower than his peers, in most cases it is significant, Most of the 1st overall or strong 2nd overall American forwards were scoring at a higher rate a year out from their draft, the only exception I see is Fantilli who went 3rd in a strong draft. Fantilli having much better tools and scoring at a high rate in the NCAA.

He literally has the highest PPG in the USHL this year at 1.58 and isn’t eligible for the draft for another year. At the same point Fantilli had 1.37 PPG.

Talk about an axe to grind.

 

[93LEAFS]

He literally has the highest PPG in the USHL this year at 1.58 and isn’t eligible for the draft for another year. At the same point Fantilli had 1.37 PPG.

Talk about an axe to grind.

It's generally pointless to compare the USNTDP u-18 teams numbers in the USHL to the league at large. Matthews and J. Hughes were at 2 ppg and Eichel was at 1.88 if you want to look at other centers in the USNTDP in recent memory who got 1st overall consideration. His numbers are better than Beniers though. The top scorers on the USNTDP tend to always blow away the per game averages of the players on regular USHL team in the league.

 

[Zarzh]

He literally has the highest PPG in the USHL this year at 1.58 and isn’t eligible for the draft for another year. At the same point Fantilli had 1.37 PPG.

Talk about an axe to grind.

That's why I the only one I see is Fantilli, the rest lap him.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

It's generally pointless to compare the USNTDP u-18 teams numbers in the USHL to the league at large. Matthews and J. Hughes were at 2 ppg and Eichel was at 1.88 if you want to look at other centers in the USNTDP in recent memory who got 1st overall consideration. His numbers are better than Beniers though. The top scorers on the USNTDP tend to always blow away the per game averages of the players on regular USHL team in the league.

Looked at another way, Hagens plays for the worst team in the Eastern Conference of the USHL. Fantilli played on the best team in the Eastern Conference.

The NTDP is usually scoring a lot more than their competition. Not this year. They are middle of the pack in scoring and their defense is among the worst. It isn’t a good team this year and he’s played with virtual nobodies compared to most past NTDP players. Probably hasn’t played more than like 10 games all year on a like with Eiserman and the other guys he’s playing with are probably picked somewhere from 50-125.

Edit: Jack Hughes played on like the best NTDP team ever, and at almost all times was playing on a line with two first round picks. They led the USHL in goals scored that season compared to the current middle of the pack scoring team, and that Hughes team was getting no help from the 17's that year that might've been the least skilled NTDP team ever. They were scoring like 7, 8, 9, 10 pretty consistently. I don't think comparing point totals between the two is fair. Hagens is also a notably better defensive player and face-off man too.

 

[landy92mack29]

Looked at another way, Hagens plays for the worst team in the Eastern Conference of the USHL. Fantilli played on the best team in the Eastern Conference.

The NTDP is usually scoring a lot more than their competition. Not this year. They are middle of the pack in scoring and their defense is among the worst. It isn’t a good team this year and he’s played with virtual nobodies compared to most past NTDP players. Probably hasn’t played more than like 10 games all year on a like with Eiserman and the other guys he’s playing with are probably picked somewhere from 50-125.

Truly elite talent can carry a line with lesser talent

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

That's why I the only one I see is Fantilli, the rest lap him.

Again though, that's not even close to being true. You haven't done your research before spouting off your takes. Never a good idea.

The only two late birthdays since the NTDP started becoming part of the USHL with better PPG's at the same age were Matthews and Eichel. Notable very high pick late birthdays he's ahead of include Matt Tkachuk, Brady Tkachuk, Matt Beniers, Adam Fantilli.

If you are telling me the only two he's behind at the same age are probably the two best American prospects probably ever then that's pretty good.

Truly elite talent can carry a line with lesser talent

Is he not doing that?

Probably has added at least a round to the draft stock of Teddy Stiga this year, and probably at least something for players like Brodie Ziemer, Max Plante, and even Eiserman.

 

[Zarzh]

Again though, that's not even close to being true. You haven't done your research before spouting off your takes. Never a good idea.

The only two late birthdays since the NTDP started becoming part of the USHL with better PPG's at the same age were Matthews and Eichel. Notable very high pick late birthdays he's ahead of include Matt Tkachuk, Brady Tkachuk, Matt Beniers, Adam Fantilli.

If you are telling me the only two he's behind at the same age are probably the two best American prospects probably ever then that's pretty good.


Is he not doing that?

Probably has added at least a round to the draft stock of Teddy Stiga this year, and probably at least something for players like Brodie Ziemer, Max Plante, and even Eiserman.

Beniers was an awful pick, and the most overrated prospect in years. Fantilli is the only valid comparison and we've already addressed him, the Tkachuks are power forwards and neither had consideration for a top 2 pick so they're bad comparisons. Hughes and even Celebrini beat him handily.

There's nothing you've brought up that indicates he is a 1st overall talent. He doesn't have the toolkit of even the Tkachuks (who were top 6 picks) or Fantilli, and he doesn't produce at the same rate as the scoring forwards.

 

[Oak]

Beniers was an awful pick, and the most overrated prospect in years. Fantilli is the only valid comparison and we've already addressed him, the Tkachuks are power forwards and neither had consideration for a top 2 pick so they're bad comparisons. Hughes and even Celebrini beat him handily.

There's nothing you've brought up that indicates he is a 1st overall talent. He doesn't have the toolkit of even the Tkachuks (who were top 6 picks) or Fantilli, and he doesn't produce at the same rate as the scoring forwards.

Not sure how you can say the Tkachhuks (plural) with a straight face because Sloth was 100% a nepotism pick for the ntdp.

 

[93LEAFS]

Looked at another way, Hagens plays for the worst team in the Eastern Conference of the USHL. Fantilli played on the best team in the Eastern Conference.

The NTDP is usually scoring a lot more than their competition. Not this year. They are middle of the pack in scoring and their defense is among the worst. It isn’t a good team this year and he’s played with virtual nobodies compared to most past NTDP players. Probably hasn’t played more than like 10 games all year on a like with Eiserman and the other guys he’s playing with are probably picked somewhere from 50-125.

Uh, team USA was 2nd last in their division in 2014/15, and were 5th in 2013/14. There last this year, but have played the least games. They are usually driven down by the U-17's, who play more games at the USHL level than the U-18's.

Maybe, elite players like Matthews and Eichel drive up their teams scoring overall. But, comparing players on the U-18 USNTDP team as equal to the league has always been extremely flawed.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Beniers was an awful pick, and the most overrated prospect in years. Fantilli is the only valid comparison and we've already addressed him, the Tkachuks are power forwards and neither had consideration for a top 2 pick so they're bad comparisons. Hughes and even Celebrini beat him handily.

There's nothing you've brought up that indicates he is a 1st overall talent. He doesn't have the toolkit of even the Tkachuks (who were top 6 picks) or Fantilli, and he doesn't produce at the same rate as the scoring forwards.

So essentially all the elite NHL players or very early picks don't matter because you don't like them or think they are overrated or something that makes no sense, and we should instead compare him to players that are early birthdays for reasons you haven't made clear.

I have nothing left to prove. I showed pretty clearly that his stats are better than all these late birthdays other than Matthews and Eichel. You are making excuses at this point after your claim was debunked.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Uh, team USA was 2nd last in their division in 2014/15, and were 5th in 2013/14. There last this year, but have played the least games. They are usually driven down by the U-17's, who play more games at the USHL level than the U-18's.

Maybe, elite players like Matthews and Eichel drive up their teams scoring overall. But, comparing players on the U-18 USNTDP team as equal to the league has always been extremely flawed.

Over the years the NTDP has typically gotten better compared to the USHL and they usually finish pretty high in the standings. The current NTDP teams are usually so skilled that they can overcome the disadvantages in age compared to their competition. Their advantages in skill, hockey sense, and skating usually make up that gap. They usually have a team full of players with NHL Draft talent or very close to it. 10 years ago, things might've been different, but the NTDP has gotten better in those 10 years.

If you take the current team, I've counted 26 points in 21 games for the 18's. That would put them in range for a playoff spot, so it is mostly the 17's that are bringing them down, but without going through the record of the 18's in the USHL each year I would still bet that's worse than what it is for most years. Most years the 18's are probably the best team in the USHL or very close to it.

 

[93LEAFS]

Over the years the NTDP has typically gotten better compared to the USHL and they usually finish pretty high in the standings. The current NTDP teams are usually so skilled that they can overcome the disadvantages in age compared to their competition. Their advantages in skill, hockey sense, and skating usually make up that gap. They usually have a team full of players with NHL Draft talent or very close to it. 10 years ago, things might've been different, but the NTDP has gotten better in those 10 years.

If you take the current team, I've counted 26 points in 21 games for the 18's. That would put them in range for a playoff spot, so it is mostly the 17's that are bringing them down, but without going through the record of the 18's in the USHL each year I would still bet that's worse than what it is for most years. Most years the 18's are probably the best team in the USHL or very close to it.

Either way, I think arguing USTNDP points-per-game on the USNTDP against USHL talent is generally very flawed. It may be more accurate in the high end, but I still find it flawed. I've thought this for like a decade. Maybe the Chicago Steel with Brisson running the program behind the scenes had a similar problem, but we have a long track record with the USNTDP.

 

[Zarzh]

So essentially all the elite NHL players or very early picks don't matter because you don't like them or think they are overrated or something that makes no sense, and we should instead compare him to players that are early birthdays for reasons you haven't made clear.

I have nothing left to prove. I showed pretty clearly that his stats are better than all these late birthdays other than Matthews and Eichel. You are making excuses at this point after your claim was debunked.

You have to be a troll at this point. You've also tried to argue that MacKinnon wasn't hyped.

It's simple. Hagens doesn't produce like the other skilled forwards (including early birthdays like Celebrini), and he doesn't have the tools of the big players.

Are you actually trying to argue Beniers is an elite player? Compared to who? Kakko?

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

You have to be a troll at this point. You've also tried to argue that MacKinnon wasn't hyped.

It's simple. Hagens doesn't produce like the other skilled forwards (including early birthdays like Celebrini), and he doesn't have the tools of the big players.

Are you actually trying to argue Beniers is an elite player? Compared to who? Kakko?

I argued MacKinnon wasn’t hyped? Can you find this post for me? Doesn’t sound like something that happened.

Beniers has the highest PPG from his draft and won the Calder.

 

[Breakers]

73 of those votes have never seen these kids play.

 

[Zarzh]

I argued MacKinnon wasn’t hyped? Can you find this post for me? Doesn’t sound like something that happened.

Beniers has the highest PPG from his draft and won the Calder.

You argued he was one of the least hyped 1st overall picks. I can look later.

Beniers had an on ice shooting percentage of almost 13% at EV, and above 13% in all situations and still scored under 60 points. Calling him an elite or future elite player seems like a stretch, especially with his current season.