"HHOF Monitor" (1917-18/2005-06)

[pnep]

This is new version of my research....

Click to read more...

 

[pnep]

Calculation..

"HHOF Monitor" formula for Goalies =

Adjusted Wins/2 +
Adjusted PO Wins*4 +

Cup - 50 pts (minimum 4 Adj PO Wins) or
Final - 25 pts (minimum 4 Adj PO Wins) +

All Star Games - 5 pts +

Calder - 50 "HHOF Monitor" pts +

1 ALL STAR TEAM - "HHOF Monitor" 125 pts (seasons 1917-81); "HHOF Monitor" 75 pts (seasons 1981-06) or
2 ALL STAR TEAM - "HHOF Monitor" 100 pts (seasons 1917-81); "HHOF Monitor" 50 pts (seasons 1981-06) +

Vezina - "HHOF Monitor" 100 pts (seasons 1917-81); "HHOF Monitor" 150 pts (seasons 1981-06) or
Vezina Runner Up - "HHOF Monitor" 75 pts (seasons 1917-81); "HHOF Monitor" 125 pts (seasons 1981-06) +

CONN SMYTHE - "HHOF Monitor" 100 pts +

Hart - "HHOF Monitor" 150 pts or
Hart Runner Up - "HHOF Monitor" 100 pts





"HHOF Monitor" formula for LW,C,RW =

Adjusted PTS/2 +
Adjusted PO PTS +

Captainship - "HHOF Monitor" 15 pts per season +

Top 10 in Goals after Season - "HHOF Monitor" 10 pts +
# 1 in Goals, Reg. Season - "HHOF Monitor" 100 pts or
# 2 in Goals, Reg. Season - "HHOF Monitor" 70 pts +
Top 10 in PTS, Reg. Season - "HHOF Monitor" 10 pts +
# 1 in PTS, Reg. Season - "HHOF Monitor" 150 pts or
# 2 in PTS, Reg. Season - "HHOF Monitor" 100 pts +

Cup - "HHOF Monitor" 50 pts (minimum 5 Adj PO GMS) or
Final - "HHOF Monitor" 25 pts (minimum 5 Adj PO GMS) +

All Star Game - "HHOF Monitor" 5 pts +

HART - "HHOF Monitor" 150 pts or
HART Runner Up - "HHOF Monitor" 100 pts +

BYNG - "HHOF Monitor" 75 pts +

1 ALL STAR TEAM - "HHOF Monitor" 75 pts or
2 ALL STAR TEAM - "HHOF Monitor" 50 pts +

CALDER - "HHOF Monitor" 50 pts +


SELKE - "HHOF Monitor" 50 pts or
SELKE Runner Up - "HHOF Monitor" 35 pts +

CONN SMYTHE - "HHOF Monitor" 100 pts





"HHOF Monitor" formula for DEF =

Adjusted Games/5 +
Adjusted Pts/10 +
Adjusted PO Games/2 +
Adjusted PO Pts/4 +

Captainship - "HHOF Monitor" 15 pts per season +

Top 10 in Goals after Season - "HHOF Monitor" 10 pts +
# 1 in Goals after Season - "HHOF Monitor" 100 pts or
# 2 in Goals after Season - "HHOF Monitor" 70 pts +
Top 10 in PTS after Season - "HHOF Monitor" 10 pts +
# 1 in PTS after Season - "HHOF Monitor" 150 pts or
# 2 in PTS after Season - "HHOF Monitor" 100 pts +

Cup - "HHOF Monitor" 50 pts (minimum 5 Adj PO GMS) or
Final - "HHOF Monitor" 25 pts (minimum 5 Adj PO GMS) +

All Star Game - "HHOF Monitor" 5 pts +

HART - "HHOF Monitor" 150 pts or
HART Runner Up - "HHOF Monitor" 100 pts +

1 ALL STAR TEAM - "HHOF Monitor" 75 pts or
2 ALL STAR TEAM - "HHOF Monitor" 50 pts +

CALDER - "HHOF Monitor" 50 pts +


NORRIS - "HHOF Monitor" 150 pts or
NORRIS Runner UP - "HHOF Monitor" 125 pts +

CONN SMYTHE - "HHOF Monitor" 100 pts

Jun 22, 2009:

Pnep, thanks for the data.

General question about the HOF Points system -- when you assign points to different awards/stats, how do you determine the values (ie 150 points for a Hart, 100 for Conn Smythe, etc)? Is there a calculation (some type of regression analysis maybe?)

Since this is a predictive system, have you tested the results (ie perhaps 95% of eligible players with a score above XX are actually in the Hall, then maybe there's a borderline category with 50% of players between YY and ZZ points in the Hall?)

example:

Hart

Players with Hart - 55 (active players include)
HHOF-er - 52
Not in HHOF - 3 (Al Rollins, Tom Anderson, Jose Theodore; + Martin St. Louis ?)
Seasons - 91

Hart PTS = ("% Hart Winners in HHOF" * Seasons) / "Players with Hart" = (94.55 * 91) / 55 = ~156 PTS

 

[pnep]

Projected Awards Winners used for:

1 and 2 ALL STAR TEAMS (Seasons 1917-18/1929-30)
CALDER and CALDER Runner Up (Seasons 1921-22/1931-32)
CONN SMYTHE (Seasons 1917-18/1963-64)
HART and HART Runner Up (Seasons 1917-18/1922-23)
BYNG (Seasons 1917-18/1923-24)
NORRIS and NORRIS Runner Up (Seasons 1917-18/1952-53)
VEZINA and VEZINA Runner Up (Seasons 1917-18/1925-26)

 

[Snap Wilson]

A fine exercise in arbitrary number crunching, pnep. If you're taking suggestions, I think the captaincy weight is too high. I also think that introducing a weight for team performance would be beneficial.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

pnep, well-done!

In regards to the question of whether or not captaincy is rated too highly, my guess is that pnep ran some regression to determine his weights.

Similar to what Bill James did in baseball, it's not meant to be a metric of who should be in the Hall of Fame, but who will be in the Hall of Fame based on predilections of voters.

Is that correct, pnep? I don't want to misrepresent you.

 

[pnep]

Is that correct, pnep? I don't want to misrepresent you.

yes, that is correct.

 

[pnep]

Best eligible NHL players not in Hall of Fame


Player Name -- YEAR1 -- YEAR2 -- POS -- HHOF Monitor
======================================================
Barrasso Tom -- 1983-84 -- 2002-03 -- G -- 1282,5
Bure Pavel -- 1991-92 -- 2002-03 -- RW -- 1221
Gilmour Doug -- 1983-84 -- 2002-03 -- C -- 1190,5
Provost Claude -- 1955-56 -- 1969-70 -- RW -- 1130,5
Anderson Glenn -- 1980-81 -- 1995-96 -- RW -- 1038
Howe Mark -- 1979-80 -- 1994-95 -- D -- 1007,15
Thompson Paul -- 1926-27 -- 1938-39 -- LW -- 1002

Rousseau Bobby -- 1960-61 -- 1974-75 -- RW -- 982
Talbot Jean Guy -- 1954-55 -- 1970-71 -- D -- 981
Kerr Dave -- 1930-31 -- 1940-41 -- G -- 977,5
Vernon Mike -- 1982-83 -- 2001-02 -- G -- 960
Hollett Flash -- 1933-34 -- 1945-46 -- D -- 945,8
Fleury Theo -- 1988-89 -- 2002-03 -- RW -- 929
Stevens Kevin -- 1987-88 -- 2001-02 -- LW -- 920

Backstrom Ralph -- 1956-57 -- 1972-73 -- C -- 893,5
Vachon Rogie -- 1966-67 -- 1981-82 -- G -- 875,5
Carbonneau Guy -- 1980-81 -- 1999-00 -- C -- 872,5
Lemieux Claude -- 1983-84 -- 2002-03 -- RW -- 871,5
Goring Butch -- 1969-70 -- 1984-85 -- C -- 870
Liut Mike -- 1979-80 -- 1991-92 -- G -- 868
Stewart Gaye -- 1941-42 -- 1953-54 -- LW -- 858,5
Dillon Ceece -- 1930-31 -- 1939-40 -- RW -- 855,5
Brewer Carl -- 1957-58 -- 1979-80 -- D -- 844,9
Cain Herb -- 1933-34 -- 1945-46 -- LW -- 843
Trembley J.C. -- 1959-60 -- 1971-72 -- D -- 842,45
Smith Sid -- 1946-47 -- 1957-58 -- LW -- 838,5
Martin Rick -- 1971-72 -- 1981-82 -- LW -- 837
Hodge Ken -- 1964-65 -- 1977-78 -- RW -- 826
Goyette Phil -- 1956-57 -- 1971-72 -- C -- 821
Wharram Kenny -- 1951-52 -- 1968-69 -- RW -- 808
Tonelli John -- 1978-79 -- 1991-92 -- LW -- 800

Mckenney Don -- 1954-55 -- 1967-68 -- C -- 797
Cashman Wayne -- 1964-65 -- 1982-83 -- LW -- 795,5
Lowe Kevin -- 1979-80 -- 1997-98 -- D -- 795,4
Middleton Rick -- 1974-75 -- 1987-88 -- RW -- 784,5
Nicholls Bernie -- 1981-82 -- 1998-99 -- C -- 764
Smith Bobby -- 1978-79 -- 1992-93 -- C -- 763
Hitchman Lionel -- 1922-23 -- 1933-34 -- D -- 757,6
Thomson James R. -- 1945-46 -- 1957-58 -- D -- 753,35
Hextall Ron -- 1986-87 -- 1998-99 -- G -- 751
Ciccarelli Dino -- 1980-81 -- 1998-99 -- RW -- 750
Tikkanen Esa -- 1984-85 -- 1998-99 -- LW -- 749,5
Vanbiesbrouck John -- 1981-82 -- 2001-02 -- G -- 748
Bellows Brian -- 1982-83 -- 1998-99 -- RW -- 747,5
Chabot Lorne -- 1926-27 -- 1936-37 -- G -- 746,5
Mosdell Kenny -- 1941-42 -- 1958-59 -- C -- 744,5
Leach Reggie -- 1970-71 -- 1982-83 -- RW -- 739
Wilson Doug -- 1977-78 -- 1992-93 -- D -- 739
Roach John -- 1921-22 -- 1934-35 -- G -- 736
Peeters Pete -- 1978-79 -- 1990-91 -- G -- 716

 

[pnep]

Worst players in the Hall of Fame?



Player Name -- YEAR1 -- YEAR2 -- NHL Seasons -- POS -- HHOF Monitor PTS
===================================================================
Smith Tommy -- 1919-20 -- 1919-20 -- 1 -- C -- 1,5 (Played 13 professional seasons from 1905 to 1920)
Ross Art -- 1917-18 -- 1917-18 -- 1 -- D -- 2,3 (Played 13 professional seasons from 1904 to 1918)
Patrick Lester -- 1926-27 -- 1927-28 -- 2 -- D -- 12,4 (Played 18 professional seasons from 1903 to 1926)
Lehman Hugh -- 1926-27 -- 1927-28 -- 2 -- G -- 17 (Played 20 professional seasons from 1908 to 1928)
Laviolette Jack -- 1917-18 -- 1917-18 -- 1 -- D -- 18 (Played 12 professional seasons from 1903 to 1918)
Walker Jack -- 1926-27 -- 1927-28 -- 2 -- C -- 26,5 (Played 18 professional seasons from 1912 to 1928 )
Foyston Frank -- 1926-27 -- 1927-28 -- 2 -- LW -- 34 (Played 16 professional seasons from 1912 to 1928)
Hyland Harry -- 1917-18 -- 1917-18 -- 1 -- RW -- 36 (Played 10 professional seasons from 1908 to 1918 )
Crawford Rusty -- 1917-18 -- 1918-19 -- 2 -- LW -- 82 (Played 12 professional seasons from 1912 to 1926)
Simpson Joe -- 1925-26 -- 1930-31 -- 6 -- D -- 100,7 (Played 10 professional seasons from 1921 to 1931)
Keats Duke -- 1926-27 -- 1928-29 -- 3 -- C -- 109 (Played 10 professional seasons from 1915 to 1929)

Green Wilf Shorty -- 1923-24 -- 1926-27 -- 4 -- RW -- 109

Mackay Mickey -- 1926-27 -- 1929-30 -- 4 -- C -- 160 (Played 15 professional seasons from 1914 to 1930)
Frederickson Frank -- 1926-27 -- 1930-31 -- 5 -- C -- 191,5 (Played 11 professional seasons from 1920 to 1931)
Holmes Harry Hap -- 1917-18 -- 1927-28 -- 4 -- G -- 233 (Played 16 professional seasons from 1912 to 1928)
Irvin Dick -- 1926-27 -- 1928-29 -- 3 -- C -- 252,5 (Played 9 professional seasons from 1916 to 1929)
Hay George -- 1926-27 -- 1933-34 -- 7 -- C -- 254 (Played 12 professional seasons from 1921 to 1934)
Hall Joe -- 1917-18 -- 1918-19 -- 2 -- D -- 300,5 (Played 16 professional seasons from 1903 to 1919)
Pitre Didier -- 1917-18 -- 1922-23 -- 6 -- RW -- 333,5 (Played 19 professional seasons from 1903 to 1923)
Fetisov Viacheslav -- 1989-90 -- 1997-98 -- 9 -- D -- 335,25 (Played 21 professional seasons from 1976 to 1997)

Laprade Edgar -- 1945-46 -- 1954-55 -- 10 -- C -- 379,5

Gardiner Herb -- 1926-27 -- 1928-29 -- 3 -- D -- 407,5 (Played 8 professional seasons from 1921 to 1929)
Adams Jack J. -- 1917-18 -- 1926-27 -- 7 -- C -- 463 (Played 10 professional seasons from 1917 to 1927)
Dutton Red -- 1926-27 -- 1935-36 -- 10 -- D -- 470,4 (Played 15 professional seasons from 1921 to 1936)
Oliver Harry -- 1926-27 -- 1936-37 -- 11 -- RW -- 486 (Played 16 Professional seasons from 1921 to 1937)

Boivin Leo -- 1951-52 -- 1969-70 -- 19 -- D -- 496,9
Horner Red -- 1928-29 -- 1939-40 -- 12 -- D -- 523,9
Lewis Herbie -- 1928-29 -- 1938-39 -- 11 -- LW -- 542
Federko Bernie -- 1976-77 -- 1989-90 -- 14 -- C -- 621
Smith Clint -- 1936-37 -- 1946-47 -- 11 -- C -- 626
Cheevers Gerry -- 1961-62 -- 1979-80 -- 13 -- G -- 630,5
Colville Neil -- 1935-36 -- 1948-49 -- 12 -- C -- 660,6
Flaman Fernie -- 1944-45 -- 1960-61 -- 17 -- D -- 682,7
Howell Harry -- 1952-53 -- 1972-73 -- 21 -- D -- 694,6
Watson Harry -- 1941-42 -- 1956-57 -- 14 -- LW -- 699,5

Darragh Jack -- 1917-18 -- 1923-24 -- 6 -- RW -- 708 (Played 13 professional seasons from 1910 to 1924)

Day Hap -- 1924-25 -- 1937-38 -- 14 -- D -- 729,35

Gerard Eddie -- 1917-18 -- 1922-23 -- 6 -- LW -- 734,05 (Played 11 professional seasons from 1907 to 1923)

Mosienko Bill -- 1941-42 -- 1954-55 -- 14 -- RW -- 744
Rayner Chuck -- 1940-41 -- 1952-53 -- 10 -- G -- 748,5
Gartner Mike -- 1979-80 -- 1997-98 -- 19 -- RW -- 759,5
Coulter Art -- 1931-32 -- 1941-42 -- 11 -- D -- 762,8
Neely Cam -- 1983-84 -- 1995-96 -- 13 -- RW -- 771,5
Cook Bun -- 1926-27 -- 1936-37 -- 11 -- LW -- 771,5
Lafontaine Pat -- 1983-84 -- 1997-98 -- 15 -- C -- 803,5
Primeau Joe -- 1927-28 -- 1935-36 -- 9 -- C -- 808
Worters Roy -- 1925-26 -- 1936-37 -- 12 -- G -- 808
Sittler Darryl -- 1970-71 -- 1984-85 -- 15 -- C -- 808,5
Gillies Clark -- 1974-75 -- 1987-88 -- 14 -- LW -- 810
Patrick Lynn -- 1934-35 -- 1945-46 -- 10 -- LW -- 816
Pratt Babe -- 1935-36 -- 1946-47 -- 12 -- D -- 816
Reardon Ken -- 1940-41 -- 1949-50 -- 7 -- D -- 839,05
Pulford Bob -- 1956-57 -- 1971-72 -- 16 -- LW -- 849
Dumart Woody -- 1935-36 -- 1953-54 -- 16 -- LW -- 863,3
Duff Dick -- 1954-55 -- 1971-72 -- 18 -- LW -- 871
Gilbert Rod -- 1960-61 -- 1977-78 -- 18 -- RW -- 872,5
Burch Billy -- 1922-23 -- 1932-33 -- 11 -- C -- 878
Mcdonald Lanny -- 1973-74 -- 1988-89 -- 16 -- RW -- 881,75
Bailey Ace I. -- 1926-27 -- 1933-34 -- 8 -- RW -- 883,5

O'Connor Buddy -- 1941-42 -- 1950-51 -- 10 -- C -- 900
Stastny Peter -- 1980-81 -- 1994-95 -- 15 -- C -- 900
Johnson Ching -- 1926-27 -- 1937-38 -- 12 -- D -- 905,55
Savard Serge -- 1966-67 -- 1982-83 -- 17 -- D -- 915,8
Savard Denis -- 1980-81 -- 1996-97 -- 17 -- C -- 924
Barber Bill -- 1972-73 -- 1983-84 -- 12 -- LW -- 928
Salming Borje -- 1973-74 -- 1989-90 -- 17 -- D -- 957,4
Weiland Cooney -- 1928-29 -- 1938-39 -- 11 -- C -- 962
Armstrong George -- 1949-50 -- 1970-71 -- 21 -- RW -- 973
Shutt Steve -- 1972-73 -- 1984-85 -- 13 -- LW -- 984
Murphy Larry -- 1980-81 -- 2000-01 -- 21 -- D -- 985,25
Bauer Bobby -- 1935-36 -- 1951-52 -- 10 -- RW -- 1001,5

 

[Bluesfan1981]

very interesting stuff

 

[Bluesfan1981]

Worst players in the Hall of Fame?



Player Name -- YEAR1 -- YEAR2 -- NHL Seasons -- POS -- HHOF Monitor PTS
===================================================================
Smith Tommy -- 1919-20 -- 1919-20 -- 1 -- C -- 1,5 (Played 13 professional seasons from 1905 to 1920)
Ross Art -- 1917-18 -- 1917-18 -- 1 -- D -- 2,3 (Played 13 professional seasons from 1904 to 1918)
Patrick Lester -- 1926-27 -- 1927-28 -- 2 -- D -- 12,4 (Played 18 professional seasons from 1903 to 1926)
Lehman Hugh -- 1926-27 -- 1927-28 -- 2 -- G -- 17 (Played 20 professional seasons from 1908 to 1928)
Laviolette Jack -- 1917-18 -- 1917-18 -- 1 -- D -- 18 (Played 12 professional seasons from 1903 to 1918)
Walker Jack -- 1926-27 -- 1927-28 -- 2 -- C -- 26,5 (Played 18 professional seasons from 1912 to 1928 )
Foyston Frank -- 1926-27 -- 1927-28 -- 2 -- LW -- 34 (Played 16 professional seasons from 1912 to 1928)
Hyland Harry -- 1917-18 -- 1917-18 -- 1 -- RW -- 36 (Played 10 professional seasons from 1908 to 1918 )
Crawford Rusty -- 1917-18 -- 1918-19 -- 2 -- LW -- 82 (Played 12 professional seasons from 1912 to 1926)
Simpson Joe -- 1925-26 -- 1930-31 -- 6 -- D -- 100,7 (Played 10 professional seasons from 1921 to 1931)
Keats Duke -- 1926-27 -- 1928-29 -- 3 -- C -- 109 (Played 10 professional seasons from 1915 to 1929)

Green Wilf Shorty -- 1923-24 -- 1926-27 -- 4 -- RW -- 109

Mackay Mickey -- 1926-27 -- 1929-30 -- 4 -- C -- 160 (Played 15 professional seasons from 1914 to 1930)
Frederickson Frank -- 1926-27 -- 1930-31 -- 5 -- C -- 191,5 (Played 11 professional seasons from 1920 to 1931)
Holmes Harry Hap -- 1917-18 -- 1927-28 -- 4 -- G -- 233 (Played 16 professional seasons from 1912 to 1928)
Irvin Dick -- 1926-27 -- 1928-29 -- 3 -- C -- 252,5 (Played 9 professional seasons from 1916 to 1929)
Hay George -- 1926-27 -- 1933-34 -- 7 -- C -- 254 (Played 12 professional seasons from 1921 to 1934)
Hall Joe -- 1917-18 -- 1918-19 -- 2 -- D -- 300,5 (Played 16 professional seasons from 1903 to 1919)
Pitre Didier -- 1917-18 -- 1922-23 -- 6 -- RW -- 333,5 (Played 19 professional seasons from 1903 to 1923)
Fetisov Viacheslav -- 1989-90 -- 1997-98 -- 9 -- D -- 335,25 (Played 21 professional seasons from 1976 to 1997)

That's a bit unfair to include some of those guys in a "Worst players in the Hall of Fame" list because that's based solely on their NHL accomplishments, and some of those players didn't play long enough in the NHL, or didn't begin playing in the NHL until they were too old, yet most of those guys were great players in other pro leagues and deserving of the Hall of Fame.

 

[pnep]

those guys were great players in other pro leagues

Green , Laprade , Boivin , Horner and Lewis dont play in other pro leagues....

 

[Bluesfan1981]

Green , Laprade , Boivin , Horner and Lewis dont play in other pro leagues....

I know, I didn't include them, except for Green, who must have been a great player in an amateur league, because if he wasn't, then he must be the least deserving NHLer in the Hall of Fame. I don't know why Green is in, and I agree with Laprade, Boivin, Horner, and Herbie Lewis, I don't understand why they got in.

 

[Know Your Enemy]

Pierre Pilote doesn't have a Conn Smythe and King Clancy has 2 first and 2nd all stars not 5 and 5

 

[BM67]

Projected Awards Winners used for:

1 and 2 ALL STAR TEAMS (Seasons 1917-18/1929-30)
CALDER and CALDER Runner Up (Seasons 1921-22/1931-32)
CONN SMYTHE (Seasons 1917-18/1963-64)
HART and HART Runner Up (Seasons 1917-18/1922-23)
BYNG (Seasons 1917-18/1923-24)
NORRIS and NORRIS Runner Up (Seasons 1917-18/1952-53)
VEZINA and VEZINA Runner Up (Seasons 1917-18/1925-26)

Pierre Pilote doesn't have a Conn Smythe and King Clancy has 2 first and 2nd all stars not 5 and 5

If you read everything, things might make more sense.

 

[Know Your Enemy]

If you read everything, things might make more sense.

My bad

 

[pappyline]

This is very interesting & well thought out. The only drawback as someone else pointed out is the exclusion of other major leagues. If the WHA was included, Hull would easily pass Richard & maybe Lemieux. Howe would gain ground on Gretzy. Curious as to why some players don't show up. For instance--Litzenberger (a fav of mine), had a comparable career to Don Mckenny & better than Laprade. what are Litz's points based on this formula.

 

[pnep]

This is very interesting & well thought out. The only drawback as someone else pointed out is the exclusion of other major leagues. If the WHA was included, Hull would easily pass Richard & maybe Lemieux. Howe would gain ground on Gretzy. Curious as to why some players don't show up. For instance--Litzenberger (a fav of mine), had a comparable career to Don Mckenny & better than Laprade. what are Litz's points based on this formula.

#-Car.-Seas.-POS-#1-#2-#3-#4-#5-#6-#7-#8-#9-#10-#11-#12-#13-#14-#15-#16-#17-#18-#19-#20 -HHOF?-"HHOF Mon. PTS"- Player
==================================================
0272 - 1952-1964 - 12 - R - 0724 - 0473 - 080 - 035 - 03 - 0 - 0 - 00 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 00 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 04 - 0 - 0 - 0664,5 - Litzenberger Ed

 

[MS]

I know, I didn't include them, except for Green, who must have been a great player in an amateur league, because if he wasn't, then he must be the least deserving NHLer in the Hall of Fame.

Indeed.

Green isn't a name I'd ever paid much attention before, but he certainly does appear to be - by far - the weakest selection ever into the HHOF.

Played 4 seasons in the NHL with the Hamilton/NY Americans franchise between the ages of 27-31 (what should be his prime years). One season was decent, and the other three were completely forgettable with no more than 10 points in any of them. Even in his best year, he wasn't top-10 in NHL scoring.

In each of his NHL seasons, he was outscored by teammates Billy Burch (a legitimate HHOFer) and his brother Red Green (!), who is not in the HHOF. It's almost like they elected the wrong brother. Amazingly, despite the fact that Burch won the Hart in 1925 and Lady Byng in 1927 and blew away Green statistically, it took him an extra 12 years to get to the HHOF.

Green played several seasons of amateur hockey in the NOHA before that, but again it seems that his brother out-produced him. And succeeding in an amateur league in the 1920s shouldn't carry much weight if you can't transfer it to pro. NHL, PCHA, or whatever.

Sounds like he spearheaded the first NHL player strike in 1925, and maybe that's why he's in. Would be a very weak reason for induction.

Maybe I'm missing something because I'm not very familiar with the era. But it definitely seems like a very oddball choice. He definitely doesn't appear to be a 'great' of the 1920s by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[pnep]

Peak Performance (Total HHOF Monitor PTS, 3 consecutive seasons)

Player -- POS -- TEAM -- Last Seas. -- Total HHOF PTS (3 seas.)
==========================================================
Gretzky Wayne -- C -- EDM -- 1984-85 -- 2057

Orr Bobby -- D -- BOS -- 1971-72 -- 1937,8

Lafleur Guy -- RW -- MTL -- 1977-78 -- 1727,5

Howe Gordie -- RW -- DET -- 1953-54 -- 1580
Esposito Phil -- C -- BOS -- 1973-74 -- 1553,5
Hasek Dominik -- G -- BUF -- 1998-99 -- 1511

Hull Bobby -- LW -- CHI -- 1965-66 -- 1464,5
Mikita Stan -- C -- CHI -- 1967-68 -- 1400

Jagr Jaromir -- RW -- PIT -- 1999-00 -- 1388,5
Beliveau Jean -- C -- MTL -- 1956-57 -- 1307,5

Lalonde Newsy -- C -- MTL -- 1920-21 -- 1235
Lemieux Mario -- C -- PIT -- 1988-89 -- 1225

Sawchuk Terry -- G -- DET -- 1953-54 -- 1194
Plante Jacques -- G -- MTL -- 1959-60 -- 1168,5
Dryden Ken -- G -- MTL -- 1977-78 -- 1167
Conacher Charlie -- RW -- TOR -- 1935-36 -- 1165,5
Richard Maurice -- RW -- MTL -- 1946-47 -- 1135,5
Dye Babe -- RW -- TOR -- 1922-23 -- 1126,5
Parent Bernie -- G -- PHI -- 1975-76 -- 1119,5

Durnan Bill -- G -- MTL -- 1945-46 -- 1098,5
Bossy Mike -- RW -- NYI -- 1982-83 -- 1084,5
Hull Brett -- RW -- STL -- 1991-92 -- 1079,5
Malone Joe -- C -- HAM -- 1919-20 -- 1059
Benedict Clint -- G -- OTT1 -- 1920-21 -- 1058
Cook Bill -- RW -- NYR -- 1932-33 -- 1056,5
Trottier Bryan -- C -- NYI -- 1979-80 -- 1039,5
Shore Eddie -- D -- BOS -- 1932-33 -- 1016,65
Denneny Cy -- LW -- OTT1 -- 1924-25 -- 1015
Moore Dickie -- LW -- MTL -- 1958-59 -- 1012

Clarke Bobby -- C -- PHI -- 1975-76 -- 997
Kurri Jari -- RW -- EDM -- 1986-87 -- 989,5
Coffey Paul -- D -- EDM -- 1985-86 -- 989,05
Kelly Red -- D -- DET -- 1953-54 -- 979,1
Clapper Dit -- D -- BOS -- 1940-41 -- 971,2
Brimsek Frank -- G -- BOS -- 1940-41 -- 965,5
Dionne Marcel -- C -- LA -- 1980-81 -- 963
Thompson Tiny -- G -- BOS -- 1930-31 -- 953,5
Boucher George -- D -- OTT1 -- 1923-24 -- 951,3
Harvey Doug -- D -- MTL -- 1957-58 -- 945,7
Bourque Ray -- D -- BOS -- 1991-92 -- 940,6
Lidstrom Nicklas -- D -- DET -- 2002-03 -- 934,3
Hextall Bryan Sr. -- RW -- NYR -- 1941-42 -- 928,5
Sakic Joe -- C -- COL -- 2001-02 -- 927
Morenz Howie -- C -- MTL -- 1931-32 -- 920,5
Boucher Frank -- C -- NYR -- 1929-30 -- 919
Cleghorn Sprague -- D -- BOS -- 1925-26 -- 913,05
Esposito Tony -- G -- CHI -- 1971-72 -- 909

Iginla Jarome -- RW -- CGY -- 2003-04 -- 893,5
Lach Elmer -- C -- MTL -- 1945-46 -- 884,5
Stewart Nels -- C -- MTM -- 1927-28 -- 884,5

 

[Bluesfan1981]

Indeed.

Green isn't a name I'd ever paid much attention before, but he certainly does appear to be - by far - the weakest selection ever into the HHOF.

Played 4 seasons in the NHL with the Hamilton/NY Americans franchise between the ages of 27-31 (what should be his prime years). One season was decent, and the other three were completely forgettable with no more than 10 points in any of them. Even in his best year, he wasn't top-10 in NHL scoring.

In each of his NHL seasons, he was outscored by teammates Billy Burch (a legitimate HHOFer) and his brother Red Green (!), who is not in the HHOF. It's almost like they elected the wrong brother. Amazingly, despite the fact that Burch won the Hart in 1925 and Lady Byng in 1927 and blew away Green statistically, it took him an extra 12 years to get to the HHOF.

Green played several seasons of amateur hockey in the NOHA before that, but again it seems that his brother out-produced him. And succeeding in an amateur league in the 1920s shouldn't carry much weight if you can't transfer it to pro. NHL, PCHA, or whatever.

Sounds like he spearheaded the first NHL player strike in 1925, and maybe that's why he's in. Would be a very weak reason for induction.

Maybe I'm missing something because I'm not very familiar with the era. But it definitely seems like a very oddball choice. He definitely doesn't appear to be a 'great' of the 1920s by any stretch of the imagination.

Yeah him and Burch were responsible for the first strike. I don't know if that's why he got in, because I've searched for information about him but there's very little available.

 

[BM67]

A few things about Shorty Green, I don't know what got him into the HoF either, but..

He was the captain of Hamilton at the time of the strike.

He never played Jr. hockey, he played Sr. and pro only.

His career was cut short by injury.

In the reworking of the historical point totals, Green went from 18-1-19 to 18-9-27 for the 24-25 season which should put him in the top 10 for that season, but he is missing from that list most times. He is listed in Total NHL, but not Total Hockey or the NHL Guide & Record Book.

 

[Snap Wilson]

In each of his NHL seasons, he was outscored by teammates Billy Burch (a legitimate HHOFer) and his brother Red Green (!), who is not in the HHOF. It's almost like they elected the wrong brother. Amazingly, despite the fact that Burch won the Hart in 1925 and Lady Byng in 1927 and blew away Green statistically, it took him an extra 12 years to get to the HHOF.

He died a year before the vote took place. That probably helped.

 

[Ogopogo*]

Peak Performance (Total HHOF Monitor PTS, 3 consecutive seasons)

Player -- POS -- TEAM -- Last Seas. -- Total HHOF PTS (3 seas.)
==========================================================
Gretzky Wayne -- C -- EDM -- 1984-85 -- 2057

Orr Bobby -- D -- BOS -- 1971-72 -- 1937,8

Lafleur Guy -- RW -- MTL -- 1977-78 -- 1727,5

Howe Gordie -- RW -- DET -- 1953-54 -- 1580
Esposito Phil -- C -- BOS -- 1973-74 -- 1553,5
Hasek Dominik -- G -- BUF -- 1998-99 -- 1511

Hull Bobby -- LW -- CHI -- 1965-66 -- 1464,5
Mikita Stan -- C -- CHI -- 1967-68 -- 1400

Jagr Jaromir -- RW -- PIT -- 1999-00 -- 1388,5
Beliveau Jean -- C -- MTL -- 1956-57 -- 1307,5

Lalonde Newsy -- C -- MTL -- 1920-21 -- 1235
Lemieux Mario -- C -- PIT -- 1988-89 -- 1225

Sawchuk Terry -- G -- DET -- 1953-54 -- 1194
Plante Jacques -- G -- MTL -- 1959-60 -- 1168,5
Dryden Ken -- G -- MTL -- 1977-78 -- 1167
Conacher Charlie -- RW -- TOR -- 1935-36 -- 1165,5
Richard Maurice -- RW -- MTL -- 1946-47 -- 1135,5
Dye Babe -- RW -- TOR -- 1922-23 -- 1126,5
Parent Bernie -- G -- PHI -- 1975-76 -- 1119,5

Durnan Bill -- G -- MTL -- 1945-46 -- 1098,5
Bossy Mike -- RW -- NYI -- 1982-83 -- 1084,5
Hull Brett -- RW -- STL -- 1991-92 -- 1079,5
Malone Joe -- C -- HAM -- 1919-20 -- 1059
Benedict Clint -- G -- OTT1 -- 1920-21 -- 1058
Cook Bill -- RW -- NYR -- 1932-33 -- 1056,5
Trottier Bryan -- C -- NYI -- 1979-80 -- 1039,5
Shore Eddie -- D -- BOS -- 1932-33 -- 1016,65
Denneny Cy -- LW -- OTT1 -- 1924-25 -- 1015
Moore Dickie -- LW -- MTL -- 1958-59 -- 1012

Clarke Bobby -- C -- PHI -- 1975-76 -- 997
Kurri Jari -- RW -- EDM -- 1986-87 -- 989,5
Coffey Paul -- D -- EDM -- 1985-86 -- 989,05
Kelly Red -- D -- DET -- 1953-54 -- 979,1
Clapper Dit -- D -- BOS -- 1940-41 -- 971,2
Brimsek Frank -- G -- BOS -- 1940-41 -- 965,5
Dionne Marcel -- C -- LA -- 1980-81 -- 963
Thompson Tiny -- G -- BOS -- 1930-31 -- 953,5
Boucher George -- D -- OTT1 -- 1923-24 -- 951,3
Harvey Doug -- D -- MTL -- 1957-58 -- 945,7
Bourque Ray -- D -- BOS -- 1991-92 -- 940,6
Lidstrom Nicklas -- D -- DET -- 2002-03 -- 934,3
Hextall Bryan Sr. -- RW -- NYR -- 1941-42 -- 928,5
Sakic Joe -- C -- COL -- 2001-02 -- 927
Morenz Howie -- C -- MTL -- 1931-32 -- 920,5
Boucher Frank -- C -- NYR -- 1929-30 -- 919
Cleghorn Sprague -- D -- BOS -- 1925-26 -- 913,05
Esposito Tony -- G -- CHI -- 1971-72 -- 909

Iginla Jarome -- RW -- CGY -- 2003-04 -- 893,5
Lach Elmer -- C -- MTL -- 1945-46 -- 884,5
Stewart Nels -- C -- MTM -- 1927-28 -- 884,5

pnep, I appreciate your work. You have obviously spent a lot of time and I applaud you.

That being said, I disagree with Howe's being #4 on this list. IMO, the 4 season span from 50-51 until 53-54 were the most amazing 4 years by anyone other than Gretzky. He dominated the NHL and I think, he should be sitting at #2 or at the very least #3.

Other than that, good work.

 

[David]

My oh my...! I can't believe the work you did...do you do this for living? I am in awe of this list.

However, the one thing that I noticed is how it doesn't take into account the comtemporaries when the players played.

What I mean is this. During Yzerman's prime years, he scored more than Joe Sakic. Throughout his career, he won more Stanely Cups and went to the finals more than Joe Sakic.

I love them both, but you gotta admit, because Gretzky and Lemieux in their primes (or close to ) were playing at the same time as Stevie Y, Stevie didn't get the awards even when scoring 150pts...unlike Burnaby Joe who didn't have that disavantage.

I would put Yzerman higher than Sakic and Yzerman much, much higher than Marcel Dionne on a list like this but yours is the other way...

Just something to consider...

]0028-1988/2006-17-C-1274-1555-162-192-14-1-0-03-0-0-1-00-2-0-0-0-0-1-02-0-F-2291,0-Sakic Joe[/B]0029-1980/2001-21-D-1458-1374-199-175-00-0-0-04-4-0-0-00-1-3-2-0-0-0-04-3-Y-2277,0-Coffey Paul
0030-1991/2006-14-D-1124-0870-174-127-00-0-0-07-0-0-0-00-0-4-3-0-0-1-03-1-F-2276,1-Lidstrom Nicklas
0031-1950/1968-16-R-1029-0949-261-236-00-1-0-01-2-2-0-02-0-0-0-0-0-1-06-4-Y-2251,5-Geoffrion Bernie
0032-1975/1994-18-C-1310-1189-240-163-00-1-2-02-2-0-0-01-1-0-0-0-0-1-06-1-Y-2232,5-Trottier Bryan
0033-1973/1988-15-D-1090-0881-210-153-08-0-1-05-2-0-0-00-0-3-2-0-0-0-04-1-Y-2189,4-Potvin Denis
0034-1926/1937-11-R-0845-0777-113-077-11-0-2-04-2-3-1-02-0-0-0-0-0-0-02-2-Y-2141,5-Cook Bill
0035-1956/1974-18-L-1330-1135-239-182-00-0-0-03-6-0-4-00-0-0-0-0-0-0-06-2-Y-2138,5-Mahovlich Frank
0036-1921/1937-16-D-1219-0733-150-049-02-0-0-05-5-0-0-00-0-2-4-0-0-0-03-3-Y-2134,4-Clancy King
0037-1921/1944-14-C-1026-1040-137-117-00-0-0-04-4-0-0-00-1-0-0-0-0-1-02-3-Y-2126,0-Boucher Frank
0038-1943/1950-07-G-0498-0277-090-054-01-0-1-06-0-0-0-00-0-0-0-6-0-0-02-1-Y-2124,5-Durnan Bill
0039-1985/2006-20-R-1308-1419-201-188-04-1-0-03-0-3-1-00-1-0-0-0-0-0-02-2-F-2089,5-Hull Brett
0040-1955/1969-14-D-1031-0545-162-111-07-0-0-05-3-0-0-00-0-3-3-0-0-1-01-2-Y-2074,7-Pilote Pierre
0041-1969/1984-15-C-1186-1062-170-125-09-3-1-02-2-0-0-00-2-0-0-0-0-0-02-2-Y-2073,0-Clarke Bobby
0042-1938/1950-10-G-0704-0358-136-064-00-0-1-02-6-0-0-00-0-0-0-2-3-0-02-2-Y-2070,0-Brimsek Frank
0043-1927/1947-20-R-1436-0823-179-066-14-0-1-04-3-0-1-00-0-2-1-0-0-0-03-3-Y-2054,8-Clapper Dit
0044-1971/1989-18-C-1389-1498-058-045-01-0-1-02-2-0-2-01-3-0-0-0-0-0-00-0-Y-2053,0-Dionne Marcel
0045-1983/2006-22-C-1561-1681-196-186-19-0-0-01-0-0-2-00-0-0-0-0-0-1-03-1-F-2027,5-Yzerman Steve

 

[Plato]

i cannot beleive u did this

wow...