HHOF 2019

vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
28,850
16,337
Why the actual **** would we want Tikkanen or Lemieux in the HOF?

Hey let’s toss Justin Williams in there too. And Matt Cooke played a niche role on a Cup winner. Chris Nilan?

idk, did justin williams ever shadow and successfully shut down gretzky or jagr or cam neely while scoring all those GWGs? i have a lot of time for those three guys. carbonneau scored 20% of the habs' OT goals in 1993.

(but don't worry bud, brind'amour's nose will poke its way in there one of these years.)
 

tjcurrie

Registered User
Aug 4, 2010
3,930
143
Gibbons, Alberta
The comments saying Sergei Zubov is not worthy are laughable

Reg Season PPG:
Lidstrom 0.73
Zubov 0.72
Blake 0.61
Pronger 0.60
Niedermayer 0.59

Playoffs PPG:
Zubov 0.71
Lidstrom 0.70
Pronger 0.70
Blake 0.50
Niedermayer 0.49

Reg Season +/-
Lidstrom +450
Pronger +183
Niedermayer +167
Zubov +148
Blake -4

Playoffs +/-
Lidstrom +61
Pronger +40
Zubov +28
Niedermayer +20
Blake 0

Total Points Playoffs+Reg
Lidstrom 1,325
Zubov 888
Blake 850
Niedermayer 838
Pronger 819

Stanley Cups
Lidstrom 4
Niedermayer 4
Zubov 2
Pronger 1
Blake 1

Olympic Gold
Niedermayer 2
Pronger 2
Zubov 1
Lidstrom 1
Blake 1

Only defenseman in NHL history to lead Cup Winner/Pres Winner in points

Only defenseman in NHL history to QB 3 different teams to the top ranked power play

2nd highest single season point total by a defenseman spanning the last 25 years

But yeah, "doesn't belong"

Ridiculous
 
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vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
28,850
16,337
i maintain that zubov is larry murphy without the freakish longevity. if that's a low rung hall of famer, then so be it. i think at their best i'd rather have desjardins and if i had to kick one guy off that dallas blueline it wouldn't be hatcher, but i'm not crying about this.

more than doug wilson though, i think the door zubov opens is to cujo. zubov lowers the floor on defensemen in the hall, as a guy clearly in the tier below lidstrom, blake, niedermayer, pronger, and chara. ditto cujo, vis à vis roy, hasek, belfour, and brodeur.
 

The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
19,249
15,846
Tokyo, Japan
The comments saying Sergei Zubov is not worthy are laughable

Reg Season PPG:
Lidstrom 0.73
Zubov 0.72
Blake 0.61
Pronger 0.60
Niedermayer 0.59

Playoffs PPG:
Zubov 0.71
Lidstrom 0.70
Pronger 0.70
Blake 0.50
Niedermayer 0.49

Reg Season +/-
Lidstrom +450
Pronger +183
Niedermayer +167
Zubov +148
Blake -4

Playoffs +/-
Lidstrom +61
Pronger +40
Zubov +28
Niedermayer +20
Blake 0

Total Points Playoffs+Reg
Lidstrom 1,325
Zubov 888
Blake 850
Niedermayer 838
Pronger 819

Stanley Cups
Lidstrom 4
Niedermayer 4
Zubov 2
Pronger 1
Blake 1

Olympic Gold
Niedermayer 2
Pronger 2
Zubov 1
Lidstrom 1
Blake 1

Only defenseman in NHL history to lead Cup Winner/Pres Winner in points

Only defenseman in NHL history to QB 3 different teams to the top ranked power play

2nd highest single season point total by a defenseman spanning the last 25 years

But yeah, "doesn't belong"

Ridiculous
Check Zubov's Norris voting record vs. his peers. It's pathetic.

People need to decide that not every single player in history who was above-average should be a Hall of Famer. Unfortunately, the current Hall committee has, evidently, decided exactly that every such player gets in.
 

tjcurrie

Registered User
Aug 4, 2010
3,930
143
Gibbons, Alberta
i maintain that zubov is larry murphy without the freakish longevity. if that's a low rung hall of famer, then so be it. i think at their best i'd rather have desjardins and if i had to kick one guy off that dallas blueline it wouldn't be hatcher, but i'm not crying about this.

more than doug wilson though, i think the door zubov opens is to cujo. zubov lowers the floor on defensemen in the hall, as a guy clearly in the tier below lidstrom, blake, niedermayer, pronger, and chara. ditto cujo, vis à vis roy, hasek, belfour, and brodeur.

Zubov > Desjardins

Not one thing points to Desjardins being better, because he wasn't

And as far as the longevity, you should re-check where Zubov's level of play was still at age 35+. Many say that's when he had his best season, and the only reason he didn't play until 40 was injury. Both he and Murphy played until 38/39, but I'll give Murphy played more career games - starting in his teens compared to Zubov at 22
 

tjcurrie

Registered User
Aug 4, 2010
3,930
143
Gibbons, Alberta
Check Zubov's Norris voting record vs. his peers. It's pathetic.

People need to decide that not every single player in history who was above-average should be a Hall of Famer. Unfortunately, the current Hall committee has, evidently, decided exactly that every such player gets in.

It's funny how you would value some people's opinions at the time over facts, as if there's never bias involved in opinions

"The sky is blue."

"But it says here some guys voted that it's red, so I'll go with red."

It's not a debate. The facts were laid out. Your opinion is secondary. If you believe Sergei Zubov was just, "above average", nothing else to say other than enjoy your red sky world

/End
 

The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
19,249
15,846
Tokyo, Japan
It's funny how you would value some people's opinions at the time over facts, as if there's never bias involved in opinions

"The sky is blue."

"But it says here some guys voted that it's red, so I'll go with red."

It's not a debate. The facts were laid out. Your opinion is secondary. If you believe Sergei Zubov was just, "above average", nothing else to say other than enjoy your red sky world

/End
You seem to be having an emotional reaction.

There is a lot of space between "average" and (my personal) "Hall of Fame" level. Zubov, who was a very good player overall, certainly falls in the upper half of that space. But for me, he's not a Hall of Famer based on his NHL career (I am totally ignorant of his international or other exploits, so if there's a case there, I'm all ears).

As @Hockey Outsider said, 4 years (?) ago in his breakdown of the history of Norris voting: "Some people say that Sergei Zubov deserves a spot in the Hall of Fame. He was great in the playoffs but his voting record is comparable to Pat Stapleton and Dan Boyle."

Just so. Zubov's top-10 results in Norris voting:
3, 4, 8, 8, 9, 9, 9

That means that contemporary voters considered him one of the top-7 defencemen in the NHL twice during his 15-or 16-season career.

Now, consider that Mark Howe had to wait 16 years after retirement to enter the Hall of Fame. Here is his top-10 Norris record (didn't start NHL until age 24):
2, 2, 2, 5, 6, 9, 10, 10


Now, Mark Howe was a fabulous player but I agree with the Hall that he is a "borderline" Hall of Famer. That is the correct standard. Zubov, then, in my own personal vision of what a Hall of Fame should be, should be on the outside.

(NOTE: This is not meant to offend you.)
 

Member 308457

Guest
I keep reading that Vaclav Nedomansky ("Big Ned") is being inducted into the HHOF this year. Is this true? Besides being the first player to defect to North America, I am scratching my head why? Plus/Minus -92 on some bad Red Wings teams. Not HHOF worthy!

Vaclav Nedomansky Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

SUMMARY

Career
GP

420
G

121
A

156
PTS

277
+/-

-92
PS

17.4
PIM

88
SH

927
GWG

12
 

MaxV

Registered User
Nov 6, 2006
4,890
590
New York, NY
Nedomansky is probably not the best Czechoslovakian player pre 1990, but he belongs. I'm glad that European hockey is getting attention.

Political circumstances shouldn't prevent great players from being recognized as such.
 

MaxV

Registered User
Nov 6, 2006
4,890
590
New York, NY
I keep reading that Vaclav Nedomansky ("Big Ned") is being inducted into the HHOF this year. Is this true? Besides being the first player to defect to North America, I am scratching my head why? Plus/Minus -92 on some bad Red Wings teams. Not HHOF worthy!

Vaclav Nedomansky Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

SUMMARY

Career
GP

420
G

121
A

156
PTS

277
+/-

-92
PS

17.4
PIM

88
SH

927
GWG

12

He defected at 30 and was already 33 at the time of his first NHL game. He still ended up with a couple of solid seasons in Detroit.
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,319
6,498
South Korea
When he entered the NHL:

Nedomansky was two years older than Crosby or Kopitar are now!!

And in his sophomore season he led his woefully bad Red Wings in goals and points, registering back-to-back 30+ goal seasons with no great skaters on his team.
 

DN28

Registered User
Jan 2, 2014
629
576
Prague
I keep reading that Vaclav Nedomansky ("Big Ned") is being inducted into the HHOF this year. Is this true? Besides being the first player to defect to North America, I am scratching my head why? Plus/Minus -92 on some bad Red Wings teams. Not HHOF worthy!

Vaclav Nedomansky Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

SUMMARY

Career
GP

420
G

121
A

156
PTS

277
+/-

-92
PS

17.4
PIM

88
SH

927
GWG

12

Nedomansky is not being inducted because of his NHL resumé. Core of his career happened behind the Iron Curtain in between 1965-1974 timespan, when he was one of the best players not playing in the NHL thanks to Cold War politics. There was little doubt among NHL scouts of that era that Nedomansky wouldn´t have become an NHL star if he had been allowed to emigrate.
 
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Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,166
14,499
As @Hockey Outsider said, 4 years (?) ago in his breakdown of the history of Norris voting: "Some people say that Sergei Zubov deserves a spot in the Hall of Fame. He was great in the playoffs but his voting record is comparable to Pat Stapleton and Dan Boyle."

Not to belabour the point on Zubov, but here's another way of looking at it. By my count, there are 30 HOF defensemen who have played at least 1 NHL game post-expansion (that is, from the 1967-68 onwards). Here's the number of times they were Norris trophy finalists:

Ray Bourque*15
Nicklas Lidstrom*11
Bobby Orr*9
Doug Harvey*8
Brad Park*7
Paul Coffey*6
Al MacInnis*6
Denis Potvin*6
Larry Robinson*6
Chris Chelios*6
Pierre Pilote*6
Chris Pronger*4
Borje Salming*4
Tim Horton*4
Brian Leetch*3
Rob Blake*3
Scott Stevens*3
Mark Howe*3
Scott Niedermayer*3
Rod Langway*3
Marcel Pronovost*3
Larry Murphy*2
Guy Lapointe*2
Jacques Laperriere*2
Allan Stanley*2
Phil Housley*1
Sergei Zubov*1
Harry Howell*1
Serge Savard*0
Leo Boivin*0
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The average HOF defenseman was a Norris trophy finalist more than 4 times. Let's look at the players with fewer than two years as a finalist:
  • Serge Savard - zero selections, but he won a Conn Smythe, was a key contributor to a dynasty, and was one of the best defensive defensemen of his era (among one-way defensemen, offensive blueliners tend to get far more Norris consideration than defensive ones).
  • Leo Boivin - routinely considered (on the History board) one of the weakest players in the Hall. Almost certainly the weakest post-expansion defenseman.
  • Phil Housley - generally considered (on the History board) one of the weakest players in the Hall. Unlike Savard, Housley was all about offense, so he's not the type of player likely to be ignored in Norris voting. Impressive career numbers because he had a long career starting in the 1980's, but a poor playoff track record, poor defensively, and his PK usage numbers were atrocious.
  • Harry Howell - also considered a pretty weak pick, but unlike all of the other players here, he actually won a Norris trophy (as opposed to "just" being a finalist). Still, he was lucky (and has admitted so) to have his career year just before Bobby Orr destroyed the NHL.
Unless you're Serge Savard (who, again, is a Smythe winner, key contributor to a dynasty, and was likely underrated in Norris voting due to his defensive focus), the post-expansion defenseman who got so little Norris consideartion are generally considered among the weakest blueliners in Hall.

The data is pretty clear, so my question to those supporting his induction - was Zubov under-rated when it came to Norris voting? If so, which specific years did he deserve a nomination and why? (Serious question - the awards voters certainly aren't perfect, so if his Norris record under-rates him, let's try to figure out why).
 
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VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,319
6,498
South Korea
Leo Boivin has been called the hardest-hitting defenseman ever by some respected hockey greats.

He played on one of the worst teams of his era.

He seems unjustly dismissed around here.
 

sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
11,920
6,348
A bit surprised by all the emotional outbursts regarding Carbonneau, and to a lesser degree Zubov. This is what the HHOF is, like it or not. We should know this at this point. If the HHOF inducts defensemen based on their offense only (Housley), then why shouldn't it induct forwards based on their defense only? At least Carbo wasn't buried/sheltered on his teams when they won Cups or went somewhere. Housley when his teams went somewhere (1996 World Cup, 1998 SCFs) was seriously sheltered. In 98 with Washington they didn't even use him for his specialty (PP, offense).
 

vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
28,850
16,337
And as far as the longevity, you should re-check where Zubov's level of play was still at age 35+. Many say that's when he had his best season, and the only reason he didn't play until 40 was injury. Both he and Murphy played until 38/39, but I'll give Murphy played more career games - starting in his teens compared to Zubov at 22

where did i say zubov didn’t have good longevity? i was just comparing him to his closest HHOF defenseman comparable and noted that the only real difference btw those two guys is murphy had freakish bourque-level longevity (and bonkers durability—he missed 28 games over his first twenty years) while zubov has denis potvin-level longevity.

When he entered the NHL:

Nedomansky was two years older than Crosby or Kopitar are now!!

And in his sophomore season he led his woefully bad Red Wings in goals and points, registering back-to-back 30+ goal seasons with no great skaters on his team.

another way of looking at it: when he started his NHL career, nedomansky was the same age corey perry was this season. both had 33 year old years where they looked done. then nedo bounced back to have two good seasons to lead and almost lead detroit in scoring. perry was just bought out; now imagine if he comes back next year to score 75 points in back to back seasons on another team.
 

GMR

Registered User
Jul 27, 2013
6,379
5,324
Parts Unknown
Zubov peaked offensively from 1994-1996. After that, his numbers took a nosedive until the high scoring 2006 season. Of course, that has to do with less league scoring in general. Also, he played for a more defensively sound team in Dallas.

For those talking about Gonchar, he played 233 more games than Zubov and scored 40 more points. I'd also argue that Zubov was better defensively. I don't see Gonchar ever getting in.

Gary Suter is still the highest scoring defenseman not in the HHOF. You have to think Zubov getting in opens the door for him. He's also an American born player who played in an era where there were much fewer Americans in the league. My guess is that he's the next defenseman who's on the bubble to make it. Doug Wilson is another guy who's not far behind.

Why Zubov had to wait a much shorter time than these two players is beyond me.
 

DannyGallivan

Your world frightens and confuses me
Aug 25, 2017
7,606
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Melonville
For those talking about Gonchar, he played 233 more games than Zubov and scored 40 more points. I'd also argue that Zubov was better defensively. I don't see Gonchar ever getting in.
Personally, I was being sarcastic when I mentioned Gonchar.
 

K Fleur

Sacrifice
Mar 28, 2014
15,411
25,588
No place has a higher opinion of Esa Tikkanen than this board. Save for maybe the Tikkanen household.
 

tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
85,297
138,892
Bojangles Parking Lot
Now, consider that Mark Howe had to wait 16 years after retirement to enter the Hall of Fame. Here is his top-10 Norris record (didn't start NHL until age 24):
2, 2, 2, 5, 6, 9, 10, 10

Now, Mark Howe was a fabulous player but I agree with the Hall that he is a "borderline" Hall of Famer. That is the correct standard.

I think this starts to zero in on what pisses me off so much about the direction the HHOF is going. Here you have an institution that keeps really great players on the outside for decades at a time... which is totally fine if the bar is just so high that few can get in quickly. But at the same time, you've got guys who weren't even considered stars while they were playing, jumping ahead of that line for induction.

Howe made it in the same year as Nieuwendyk, and a lot of the impact of Howe finally making it was taken up by an outcry that a player as weak as Nieuwendyk could make it. Karlamov was dead for 24 years before he got in, and they shoved Cam Neely in there with him. Those outrages seem almost naive in comparison with the past few years.

And the pattern seems to be getting worse. Just in the past 20 years we have Mullen, Gartner, Gillies, Neely, Duff, Anderson, Ciccarelli, Nieuwendyk, Housley, Andreychuk, Carbonneau. That's an entire tier of undistinguished players who are now the entry standard for whole future generations of Ryan O'Reillys and Kris Letangs. In some cases it's hard to distinguish whether the problem is "old boys" overfamiliarity with the candidates, or "I'm just here for the post-vote cocktails" lack of curiosity beyond what can be seen on a stat sheet.

I dunno, man. It's a sad thing to watch this happen year-over-year. I guess there's a point where the place simply stops becoming something magical like the Baseball HOF and you just accept that it's a museum in a food court and not much more.
 

Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
13,301
4,354
The Hall of Every Player Who Had a Somewhat Notable Career strikes again. Two more guys that are firmly in the bottom 10% of inductees. Could have left it at Wickenheiser and Nedomansky and been done with it.

I guess Zubov has a case as one of the best handful of defenseman not in the Hall. But I can't believe people are defending Carbonneau. He can play on my team any day, make no mistake. You need those players to win. But Hall of Famer? No. This is a Dick Duff level induction. It's almost beyond belief that a guy like Brind'Amour (who I consider very borderline as it is) would get passed over for Carbonneau.
 

Syckle78

Registered User
Nov 5, 2011
14,585
7,824
Redford, MI
I find it odd the history section of all sections values award voting. The voters are terrible in this day and age with every advantage available to educate themselves on player yet we're valuing the voting of guys that barely had access to out of town games? That's a head scratcher to me.
 
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Dog

Arf! Arf! Arf!
Feb 9, 2016
2,496
1,022
Wasteland
I call shenanigans where is the original Alexander the great? Alexander Mogilny deserves to be in the hall and what are the excuses? He won a cup with the Devils and had over a point a game. Shame on the HHOF!
 

cupcrazyman

Stupid Sexy Flanders
Aug 14, 2006
16,404
1,469
Leafland
If Guy won any other player trophy 3 times would there be an argument over his induction ?
He also won the Stanley Cup with 2 different teams.
 

Giotrapani91

Registered User
Oct 21, 2015
564
36
I have a question besides iginla are any other big names gonna go in my picks for 2020 are iggy, theoren fleury, mogilny, & a goalie maybe barrasso, iggy is the only first ballot imo. Hossa will go in the 2021 class along with JR, tkachuk, and cujo.
 

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