HFBoards Top 32 Defensemen - #2

[LT]

Rank	Player	Votes	Team	GP	G	A	P
1	Cale Makar	85/111 (77%)	Colorado Avalanche	77	28	58	86
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[stl76]

Very nice of Mattias Ekholm to eat all the tough minutes in Nashville so that Josi can rack up points and get votes here.

Hedman, and he should’ve gone first IMO.

 

[bsu]

Hedman

 

[Gurglesons]

McAvoy IMO.

 

[amnesiac]

add Carlson, Chabot

 

[Lavar Ball]

Hedman

 

[wetcoast]

Very nice of Mattias Ekholm to eat all the tough minutes in Nashville so that Josi can rack up points and get votes here.

Hedman, and he should’ve gone first IMO.

Even so Josi had an incredible season offensively for a Dman and he isn't exactly Phil Housley bad on the back end out there either.

That being said took Hedman this round and no Makar has up seated Hedman and it's not even really all that close really.

For me it's Makar then the field.

 

[wetcoast]

add Carlson, Chabot

Carlson, seriously?

I know that he still produces points but going into next season just for next season and salaries not mattering do you honestly think that NHL GMs would draft him in the top 10 (or even 15 or 20 really) of all Dmen just for a single year everyone in the pool exercise?

This is how I view these questions when they are asked because that's kind of the exact question they were asking.

Even adding Chabot at this point seems early.

 

[Paul4587]

Hedman then McAvoy/Fox/Ekblad all have a case for 3rd.

 

[Dion TheFluff]

Hedman
add Devon Toews

 

[amnesiac]

Carlson, seriously?

I know that he still produces points but going into next season just for next season and salaries not mattering do you honestly think that NHL GMs would draft him in the top 10 (or even 15 or 20 really) of all Dmen just for a single year everyone in the pool exercise?

This is how I view these questions when they are asked because that's kind of the exact question they were asking.

Even adding Chabot at this point seems early.

Pietrangelo, Rielly, and Theodore then.... All in the same tier

 

[teravaineSAROS]

Very nice of Mattias Ekholm to eat all the tough minutes in Nashville so that Josi can rack up points and get votes here.

Hedman, and he should’ve gone first IMO.

I voted Hedman aswell but the disrespect towards Josi is ridicolous.

 

[Vakarte]

Very nice of Mattias Ekholm to eat all the tough minutes in Nashville so that Josi can rack up points and get votes here.

Hedman, and he should’ve gone first IMO.

I thought Josi plays lots of tough minutes though?

 

[Regal]

I thought Josi plays lots of tough minutes though?

Yea, Ekholm certainly played tougher minutes overall according to puckIQ (38.5% against elite competition vs 28.6%), but their actual minutes against top competition wasn’t far off (506.5 for Ekholm vs 460.2 for Josi), and Josi did really well in those minutes, and better than Ekholm

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

Josi will be the auto #3. #4 will get interesting - Fox and Charlie.

Then it opens up at #6 with the Slavin's of the world.

 

[stl76]

I voted Hedman aswell but the disrespect towards Josi is ridicolous.

And I find the disrespect towards Ekholm and overrating of Josi because points ridiculous. Props to Josi for actually scoring them, but he owes Ekholm and ENORMOUS “thank you” for shouldering the tough defensive load and freeing up Josi to rack up points.

Yea, Ekholm certainly played tougher minutes overall according to puckIQ (38.5% against elite competition vs 28.6%), but their actual minutes against top competition wasn’t far off (506.5 for Ekholm vs 460.2 for Josi), and Josi did really well in those minutes, and better than Ekholm

Now look at their shTOI and zone start %s. Ekholm lead his team in short handed minutes and was among the top players in the entire league in PK time, Josi was 6th on the predators in total shTOI and 9th in shTOI per game. Ekholm started in the ozone 36.6% vs 67.2% ozone starts for Josi. For all the accolades Josi gets after a big offensive season, he would not be able to score like he did without Ekholm doing the dirty work for him.

 

[stl76]

Even so Josi had an incredible season offensively for a Dman and he isn't exactly Phil Housley bad on the back end out there either.

That being said took Hedman this round and no Makar has up seated Hedman and it's not even really all that close really.

For me it's Makar then the field.

Fair enough, clearly Josi had an incredible offensive season and he deserves credit for putting the puck in the net. However I cannot in good faith say a dman who is 9th on his own team in average shTOI per game is a top 2-3 dman in the league. He is being overrated because points, while the guy on his team doing all the actual tough defensive work (Ekholm) gets completely passed over.

I stated my stance of Hedman vs Makar in the first thread if you want to see, but basically I think Hedman is better defensively than Makar is better offensively. Makar is a wizard with the puck but he needs to improve his play in his own zone when he/the team doesn’t have puck possession.

 

[stl76]

I thought Josi plays lots of tough minutes though?

He really doesn’t. Opponents will put out their top players against him in the ozone because he is great offensively, but he is generally not playing tough defensive and PK minutes.

 

[Regal]

And I find the disrespect towards Ekholm and overrating of Josi because points ridiculous. Props to Josi for actually scoring them, but he owes Ekholm and ENORMOUS “thank you” for shouldering the tough defensive load and freeing up Josi to rack up points.


Now look at their shTOI and zone start %s. Ekholm lead his team in short handed minutes and was among the top players in the entire league in PK time, Josi was 6th on the predators in total shTOI and 9th in shTOI per game. Ekholm started in the ozone 36.6% vs 67.2% ozone starts for Josi. For all the accolades Josi gets after a big offensive season, he would not be able to score like he did without Ekholm doing the dirty work for him.

Josi was played in minutes that maximize his effectiveness, just like Karlsson when he was at his best. That means higher zone starts and lower PK minutes. That doesn’t mean he can’t handle those minutes, or that he’s ineffective in them, as he did well when he played them. Sure, he probably doesn’t score 96 points if he had Ekholm’s deployment, but that doesn’t suddenly make him not an elite defenseman or Ekholm somehow more valuable. Hedman hasn’t taken the hardest matchups on the Bolts since they acquired McDonagh either, for the record.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

He really doesn’t. Opponents will put out their top players against him in the ozone because he is great offensively, but he is generally not playing tough defensive and PK minutes.

Personally, I don't hold that against him. Same as I don't really hold it against McDavid that he is deployed offensively. Ekholm will make his way onto this list for his own merits.

Not many defencemen have the skillset to put up 96 points on a team that was middle of the pack offensively.

 

[Machinehead]

Fox is going to end up with an average Norris finish the last two years higher than this poll ranks him. Just an observation.

 

[Regal]

Fox is going to end up with an average Norris finish the last two years higher than this poll ranks him. Just an observation.

Maybe, but Makar has a better average and Hedman has the same. And while Josi’s is worse, he also has a Norris and a runner up in the past 3 years. I don’t know if it means much

 

[stevo61]

Personally, I don't hold that against him. Same as I don't really hold it against McDavid that he is deployed offensively. Ekholm will make his way onto this list for his own merits.

Not many defencemen have the skillset to put up 96 points on a team that was middle of the pack offensively.

Not many forwards have the skillset to put up 96 points on any team

I hate that I agree with Ranger fans but I go Fox here. Hedman is almost overrated due to what hes done vs what hes doing. Still a top 5 guy but the sheer amount of hockey hes played has definitely slowed him down a bit

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Hedman then McAvoy/Fox/Ekblad all have a case for 3rd.

Not Ekblad. He’s a tier below those two.

 

[stl76]

Josi was played in minutes that maximize his effectiveness, just like Karlsson when he was at his best. That means higher zone starts and lower PK minutes. That doesn’t mean he can’t handle those minutes, or that he’s ineffective in them, as he did well when he played them. Sure, he probably doesn’t score 96 points if he had Ekholm’s deployment, but that doesn’t suddenly make him not an elite defenseman or Ekholm somehow more valuable. Hedman hasn’t taken the hardest matchups on the Bolts since they acquired McDonagh either, for the record.

Lot easier to do well in those minutes when not tired from PKing or playing against opponents top lines in the dzone.

I don't think comparing Hedman's usage to Josi's is a very good comparison. Unlike Josi and Ekholm, McDonagh and Hedman actually played similar TOI% against Elite QoC, Hedman actually played significant minutes on the PK, and had somewhat more reasonable zone start ratios (tho admittedly still slanted towards a more offensive usage).

If you want to argue that McDonagh is underrated, I've got time for that argument tho.

Personally, I don't hold that against him. Same as I don't really hold it against McDavid that he is deployed offensively. Ekholm will make his way onto this list for his own merits.

Not many defencemen have the skillset to put up 96 points on a team that was middle of the pack offensively.

I don't see the point in comparing the deployment of a forward like McDavid to a dman like Josi. Seems more reasonable to compare the deployment of players in the same position.

Regardless, bolded is a fair point. Josi deserves some credit for taking full advantage of his sheltered offensive usage and having a historic offensive season. I just don't think his accomplishments are deserving of being crowned a top 2-3 defenseman in the world.