Prospect Info: Has prospect development improved significantly since this season?

[Agalloch]

The 4 most disappointing ones are probably McCarron, Thrower, Fucale and Lernout
Some made the jump right away and avoided going to the AHL
Lehkonen was in Europe
Scherback and Juulseen really didn't play much under SL
Come on, please don't tell me you think SL is doing a good job with our prospects and team down there

Scherbak didn't play much? I mean 3 seasons?

 

[Habs Halifax]

The 4 most disappointing ones are probably McCarron, Thrower, Fucale and Lernout
Some made the jump right away and avoided going to the AHL
Lehkonen was in Europe
Scherback and Juulseen really didn't play much under SL
Come on, please don't tell me you think SL is doing a good job with our prospects and team down there

Sly is not a good coach as our AHL record indicates. He is not able to get the best team results and Lindgren is why we made the playoffs last year. However, Sly is not responsible for this lack of development. The responsibility goes to the GM and trading picks away.

Scherbak didn't really play much under Sly?

The organization is responsible for facilitating training centers and programs for them to follow but at the end of the day, the development in on the players. Gallagher is a fitness freak and that's how he made the NHL. He was committed. McCarron is also committed but the talent is just not there. Expecting Sly to develop him into a top 6F is ridiculous

 

[Andrei79]

I don't care about Sly, you can't develop something that's not there! Sly or not Sly...

If you have it in you, you will make it no matter how bad your coach is and if you don't have it in you you wont make it no matter how good your coach is!

Coaches don't ruin players or generate elite skill/talent. They're there to guide/motivate you and that's it.

Obviously you think like this, as then no one in management has to take responsibility. You have a wealth of players who regularly come out and mention who helped them get to the NHL and how.

The Knights are an example of what a great development program can do. These players don't stop needing development the moment they get to the AHL. Another example would be Doug Jarvis and the work he did with Andrei Kostitsyn, who likely would've been a bigger bust under Lefebvre.

It's not normal players like Leblanc, McCarron and De La Rose look better their first season than any other time. That's development. No one is talking about turning these guys into superstars, because people aren't stupid. Only you are suggesting this.

But, they should have been good NHLers at this point.

 

[Belial]

Obviously you think like this, as then no one in management has to take responsibility. You have a wealth of players who regularly come out and mention who helped them get to the NHL and how.

The Knights are an example of what a great development program can do. These players don't stop needing development the moment they get to the AHL. Another example would be Doug Jarvis and the work he did with Andrei Kostitsyn, who likely would've been a bigger bust under Lefebvre.

It's not normal players like Leblanc, McCarron and De La Rose look better their first season than any other time. That's development. No one is talking about turning these guys into superstars, because people aren't stupid. Only you are suggesting this.

But, they should have been good NHLers at this point.

Kostitsyn was a top 10 pick I sure hope Jarvis was able to help him reach the league!

McCarron lacks speed and skill, DLR lacks skill, you can't coach those things!

You have it or you don't.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Obviously you think like this, as then no one in management has to take responsibility. You have a wealth of players who regularly come out and mention who helped them get to the NHL and how.

The Knights are an example of what a great development program can do. These players don't stop needing development the moment they get to the AHL. Another example would be Doug Jarvis and the work he did with Andrei Kostitsyn, who likely would've been a bigger bust under Lefebvre.

It's not normal players like Leblanc, McCarron and De La Rose look better their first season than any other time. That's development. No one is talking about turning these guys into superstars, because people aren't stupid. Only you are suggesting this.

But, they should have been good NHLers at this point.

BS! A coach and an organization can only do so much. A very large % of development in on the player and is his Skill / Commitment factor.

- Gallagher has skill and committed to fitness. That's why he is who he is today.

- McCarron does not have high end skill but does have commitment to fitness. He is a fringe NHL player. It was a bad 1st round pick

- DLR has limited skill and is committed to fitness. We have to see what he can do in a full season to figure out if he is a 3rd line player or a 4th line player.

- Kostitsyn had skill but was a bit lazy and lacked consistency. He was who he was.

- Scherbak has skill but has dealt with injuries. He is finally starting to show potential this year. Did Sly destroy him?

Sly needs to be fired but that is about his coaching ability and team results. Not because he can't develop McCarron into a top 6F!

 

[Habs 4 Life]

I don't care about Sly, you can't develop something that's not there! Sly or not Sly...

If you have it in you, you will make it no matter how bad your coach is and if you don't have it in you you wont make it no matter how good your coach is!

Coaches don't ruin players or generate elite skill/talent. They're there to guide/motivate you and that's it.

And SL has pretty much proved that he can't do it.
This organization needs changes, if Molson isn't going to make one as of right now with Bergevin, Marc better wake up and start changing things that haven't worked out for him before he get's the boot.

 

[Andrei79]

Kostitsyn was a top 10 pick I sure hope Jarvis was able to help him reach the league!

McCarron lacks speed and skill, DLR lacks skill, you can't coach those things!

You have it or you don't.

lol.

Ok then.

An unsurprisingly simple minded way of looking at things.

 

[Habs Halifax]

And SL has pretty much proved that he can't do it.
This organization needs changes, if Molson isn't going to make one as of right now with Bergevin, Marc better wake up and start changing things that haven't worked out for him before he get's the boot.

Correct, Sly should of been let go last year. But development of our prospects is not on him. Our AHL team record is though. Two completely different things.

Habs need to stop drafting players like Tinordi, McCarron, DLR in the 1st 2 rounds. Draft these types in later rounds like we did with Lernout as the 73rd pick and Vejdemo with the 87th pick. This is our problem with development.

I like our scouting staff start to target players who can score goals in their draft year. Target these types and then measure their character and if you want to draft them. Don't target character first. Those types are a dime a dozen

 

[Chili]

If you look at teams that took a significant step forward in recent years, can often point to it starting in the AHL (Leafs, Tampa, Columbus, etc.)

They filled their AHL rosters with alot of good young talent from the draft and beyond.

When is the last time anyone could say that about the Habs AHL team? Don`t remember the last time. Seems like it is usually full of failed prospects of other teams, just to fill out the roster.

Not an endorsement of Lefebvre or the AHL coaches but expecting them to work miracles with the rosters they have been given seems beyond optimistic.

 

[optimus2861]

You didn't answer the question and you missed the point. Habs have Gallagher to show for the 2008-2011 terrible 4 years. What prospects did the Pens, Sharks, Flyers, and Canucks develop from those 4 years who also had similar picks that the Habs had.

It's hilarious how you don't see the coloration between your ability to develop players and how many picks you have... especially in the lower rounds of the draft.

For the Penguins, their 08-11 drafts DIDN'T ******* MATTER.

They already HAD Crosby & Malkin & Fleury & other key pieces in place. And whatever development failures they may or may not have had certainly didn't stop them from reeling off 8 straight playoff round victories in the last two seasons! Which is just one fewer than the Canadiens have mustered in twenty five years, if you need reminding.

So whatever nonsense you want to babble about how bad those drafts were, for them, for us, whatever, it didn't stop the Penguins from remaining highly competitive. And they certainly never trotted it out as an excuse, like you so often do.

 

[Andrei79]

BS! A coach and an organization can only do so much. A very large % of development in on the player and is his Skill / Commitment factor.

- Gallagher has skill and committed to fitness. That's why he is who he is today.

- McCarron does not have high end skill but does have commitment to fitness. He is a fringe NHL player. It was a bad 1st round pick

- DLR has limited skill and is committed to fitness. We have to see what he can do in a full season to figure out if he is a 3rd line player or a 4th line player.

- Kostitsyn had skill but was a bit lazy and lacked consistency. He was who he was.

- Scherbak has skill but has dealt with injuries. He is finally starting to show potential this year. Did Sly destroy him?

Sly needs to be fired but that is about his coaching ability and team results. Not because he can't develop McCarron into a top 6F!

Did I say he couldn't develop McCarron into a top 6 F? Seriously, what the f*** are you guys even reading ? He could have been a 3rd line RW or center and that's already very good for him.

McCarron looked good in his rookie season, he actually looked like he had a scoring touch and carried whatever the Knights were doing into his first season.

He's only looked worse since. That's development. Putting Scherbak at center, a position he's never played, after an injury, that's development. Intimidating players, that's development. Coaches at the AHL level need to manage confidence yet put responsibilities on the player, encourage growth, know the right way to help a player work on his skills, and on and on.

When Kostitsyn came to NA, he was a raw prospect who barely spoke english. Jarvis was working pretty much every day to teach him the NA game. Do you think Lefebvre does any of this ?

 

[Agalloch]

McCarron has regressed, he was mismanaged and recall too fast. He should have played 2 full season in the AHL before being call up. Our lack of depth makes us re-call prospects too soon.

They took their time with Hudon, it worked.

I think de la rose can still be a good 4th liner.

 

[Habs Halifax]

For the Penguins, their 08-11 drafts DIDN'T ******* MATTER.

They already HAD Crosby & Malkin & Fleury & other key pieces in place. And whatever development failures they may or may not have had certainly didn't stop them from reeling off 8 straight playoff round victories in the last two seasons! Which is just one fewer than the Canadiens have mustered in twenty five years, if you need reminding.

So whatever nonsense you want to babble about how bad those drafts were, for them, for us, whatever, it didn't stop the Penguins from remaining highly competitive. And they certainly never trotted it out as an excuse, like you so often do.

You continue to miss the point. The correlation between your ability to develop NHL players based on quantity of picks (especially lower round picks) matters.

You are basically using the Pens as an example where they didn't need to develop more NHL players and didn't care if they did because they did well before the 2008 draft. Well so did the Habs in 2007 and we desperately needed to do well in the 2008-2011 draft years as well. It has created huge holes in our line-up today. We did well in 2007 with McDonagh, Patch, Subban but we traded McDonagh for Gomez and it don't compare to the Pens living on Crosby, Malkin, Letang. Not even close and it means nothing to each teams ability to develop prospects from 2008-2011

Still waiting for you to let us know who the Pens, Sharks, Flyers, and Canucks developed in the 2008-2011 draft years. All 4 of these teams had similar picks to the Habs.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Did I say he couldn't develop McCarron into a top 6 F? Seriously, what the **** are you guys even reading ? He could have been a 3rd line RW or center and that's already very good for him.

McCarron looked good in his rookie season, he actually looked like he had a scoring touch and carried whatever the Knights were doing into his first season.

He's only looked worse since. That's development. Putting Scherbak at center, a position he's never played, after an injury, that's development. Intimidating players, that's development. Coaches at the AHL level need to manage confidence yet put responsibilities on the player, encourage growth, know the right way to help a player work on his skills, and on and on.

When Kostitsyn came to NA, he was a raw prospect who barely spoke english. Jarvis was working pretty much every day to teach him the NA game. Do you think Lefebvre does any of this ?

- Fire Lefebvre due to our AHL team record and lack of sucess... YES!

- Fire Lefebvre due to our ability to develop NHL players... NO!

 

[Andrei79]

I've been saying this for a while now, our drafting isn't the issue. It's development. In general most of our prospects look fantastic until they hit the pros. Lefebvre has got to go

It's funny because even the Habs are putting a bunch of cash on development.

The NCAA sells its program on development: strength, coaching, in game experience and skill to players who around the age of prospects in the AHL. But somehow that's not important in the AHL.

How many alumni have told they owed their careers to Claude Ruel ?

 

[Andrei79]

- Fire Lefebvre due to our AHL team record and lack of sucess... YES!

- Fire Lefebvre due to our ability to develop NHL players... NO!

Do you realize how little sense you're making ?

If the record is better, then that means the players he's supposed to be developping are producing and playing better.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Do you realize how little sense you're making ?

If the record is better, then that means the players he's supposed to be developping are producing and playing better.

So I guess the whole AHL roster is all prospects right?

- 50% of our AHL roster is journey man type players
- 20% to 15% of our AHL roster is prospect drafted in the first 3 rounds

The coaching record and lack of success is on the coach. Development and commitment is on the players for the most part.

 

[Andrei79]

So I guess the whole AHL roster is all prospects right?

- 50% of our AHL roster is journey man type players
- 15% or less of our AHL roster is prospect drafted in the first 3 rounds

So you're saying the rest of the team would be playing better, but not those prospects ?

 

[Habs Halifax]

So you're saying the rest of the team would be playing better, but not those prospects ?

I'm saying the team record and lack of success is on the coach. Development is on the players for the most part. The organization has not created a winning environment at the AHL and there are many reasons for that. Bad Coach, Bad depth, with not many grade A type prospects. None of Hudon, McCarron, DLR, Lernout, are grade A type prospects. Scherbak and Juulsen are fringe Grade A prospects IMO.

Look at Kerby Rychel. Do you think the Leafs failed in his development? Or does that blame belong to the Blue Jackets? Rychel was drafted 19th while the Habs took McCarron in the same year.

 

[Andrei79]

I'm saying the team record and lack of success is on the coach. Development is on the players for the most part. The organization has not created a winning environment at the AHL and there are many reasons for that. Bad Coach, Bad depth, with not many grade A type prospects. None of Hudon, McCarron, DLR, Lernout, are grade A type prospects. Scherbak and Juulsen are fringe Grade A prospects IMO.

Look at Kerby Rychel. Do you think the Leafs failed in his development?

Why are you dodging the question ?

 

[Habs Halifax]

Why are you dodging the question ?

Not dodging the question... I answered it. You don't like the answer.

 

[WeThreeKings]

He's been terrible and the development hasn't gotten better.

 

[Andrei79]

Not dodging the question... I answered it. You don't like the answer.

I asked you a pretty simple question. If you fault Lefebvre for his team record, does that mean that with a better coach and a better record, guys like McCarron and De La Rose would not play and produce better ?

 

[Habs Halifax]

I asked you a pretty simple question. If you fault Lefebvre for his team record, does that mean that with a better coach and a better record, guys like McCarron and De La Rose would not play and produce better ?

No, it does not mean that. McCarron and DLR are who they are and how much better then get from this point in time is on them, not the coach.

 

[Andrei79]

No, it does not mean that. McCarron and DLR are who they are and how much better then get from this point in time is on them, not the coach.

Ok, so you want a better coach so that the Taormina's, Terry's and Cracknell's play better.

Why ?