Hart Trophy: Who has better claim?

Romang67

BitterSwede
Jan 2, 2011
29,820
22,088
Evanston, IL
Less bottom feeders and more teams with 110 plus points. Makes a deeper conference top to bottom.
Does it? You're really misrepresenting the data as if the East has some massive advantage at the top. The West will finish with 2 or 3 teams with 110+ points, to the East's 3. They will most likely have 8 of the top 13 teams.

They have more mediocre teams. If you think that makes the conference deep, you're free to believe that. I disagree.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wings4Life

Outl4w

Registered User
Dec 16, 2011
3,572
2,051
FL
Does it? You're really misrepresenting the data as if the East has some massive advantage at the top. The West will finish with 2 or 3 teams with 110+ points, to the East's 3. They will most likely have 8 of the top 13 teams.

They have more mediocre teams. If you think that makes the conference deep, you're free to believe that. I disagree.
It is easier to score against the worst of the worst teams in the West. The East has more top teams and less worse teams. The west has all four of the worse teams in the nhl. The east has a higher average in points than the west. They have less terrible teams and don't have any bottom feeders. All the bottom feeders are in the west. Kuch got 3 straight games of 3 or more points against the bottom feeders. He only got 1 chance to play them. Mack and mcdavid get that chance more times . Kucherov had back to back 5 point nights against the sharks and ducks. I haven't seen Mack pick apart the bottom feeders In his conference like that and he gets more chances. I haven't seen Mack carry his team to back to back cups or go one win away from a 3peat. If kucherov played in the west he would have equal opportunities to light up the bottom feeders and would widen the gap. There is a big difference is the bottom of the west and the east.
 
Last edited:

Soul Assumption

Registered User
Jul 18, 2022
117
160
Why does Kucherov have more goals allowed against 5v5 than any other forward in the Atlantic Division, Eastern Conference, and the league?

I don't think this argument holds up to scrutiny in the slightest.
GKApRVUWoAAZ4U4.jpg
 

splot

Registered User
Jun 12, 2014
181
4
The mediocre group of teams (teams in the "playoff race" in the East, 84-94pts) I was talking about had the following point percentage against the West:

.547
.469
.531
.531
.515
.656

And against the East:

.56
.54
.60
.57
.55
.47

Philly is the outlier. All other teams in that group had a better point percentage against the East than against the West.

Not sure why you'd assume I hadn't looked up if that group of teams were just hard done by having to play in the East, or why you think it's blatantly false that the East had a large group of teams that were utterly mediocre, even though they didn't have the bottom feeders that the West did.
True enough, the teams in that bracket mostly bucks the overall trend of the league as a whole. Quoting you when I was trying to counter all the posts recently who were claiming the east or west were "more competitive" wasn't the smartest.

The overall record is 0.567 PTS% for the the Eastern teams vs West and 0.537% PTS% for the Western teams vs East and as my previous post showed Colorado really struggled vs the East which I'd say is more relevant for the Hart trophy discussion.
 

Romang67

BitterSwede
Jan 2, 2011
29,820
22,088
Evanston, IL
It is easier to score against the worst of the worst teams in the West. The East has more top teams and less worse teams. The west has all four of the worse teams in the nhl.
The East has 5 of the top 13 teams assuming the Kings win tonight. If you think their advantage in the 110+ club (assuming they actually finish with more teams in the 110+ club, which remains to be seen) is a huge boon when the Presidents' Trophy winner finished with 114 points, you are also free to believe that. I disagree.

I don't think mediocrity implies depth.
 

nbwingsfan

Registered User
Dec 13, 2009
21,321
15,231
Hart Trophy: Who has better claim?


Nikita Kucherov:
- Art Ross Trophy
- 100 Assists. First ever winger to do it. Previous record was 87.
- 54 Points clear of closest teammate
- 1'st in PPG


Nathan Mackinnon:
- 2'd in Art Ross Trophy
- 3'd in PPG
- +34
- 35 Points more than the closest teammate


Connor McDavid:
- 100 Assists
- 3'd in Art Ross Trophy
- 2'd in PPG
- +35
- 26 Points more than the closest teammate
It’s Kuch, McDavid Mackinnon in that order and I don’t see any argument for it being any other way really.
 

Romang67

BitterSwede
Jan 2, 2011
29,820
22,088
Evanston, IL
True enough, the teams in that bracket mostly bucks the overall trend of the league as a whole. Quoting you when I was trying to counter all the posts recently who were claiming the east or west were "more competitive" wasn't the smartest.

The overall record is 0.567 PTS% for the the Eastern teams vs West and 0.537% PTS% for the Western teams vs East and as my previous post showed Colorado really struggled vs the East which I'd say is more relevant for the Hart trophy discussion.
Genuine question: why?
 

Soul Assumption

Registered User
Jul 18, 2022
117
160
If you want to bring up expected rates, Kucherov also has significantly worse xGA/60 than MacKinnon.:dunno:

There are some 170 forwards in the league with worse xGA/60 5v5 than MacKinnon and better than Kucherov this season, counting players with 500+ minutes played.
I answered your question: why does Tampa allow goals when Kuch is on the ice. Because they have the worst goaltending in the league except for Ottawa.
Kuch +8
Point -16
Stamkos -21
Mackinnon +34
Rantanen +18
Drouin +12
as we can see, Kucherev is better than MacKinnon compared to linemates
 

splot

Registered User
Jun 12, 2014
181
4
Genuine question: why?
You can of course argue how important the quality of competition comparison is for the Hart race, but it should be fairly obvious why the overall trend of the league as a whole and the stats for the two teams the two front-runners plays for are more significant than those of some teams in an arbitrarily picked bracket.
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,155
14,477
The Art Ross winner consistently wins the Hart trophy if the Art Ross winner is Canadian. When a European player wins the Art Ross the Hart voting gets difficult to predict.
Canadian Art Ross winner
  • Wins the Hart: 1996, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2014, 2017, 2021, 2023
  • Loses the Hart to another Canadian: 2002, 2015, 2018
  • Loses the Hart to a non-Canadian: 1994, 1997, 2013, 2022

Non-Canadian Art Ross winner
  • Wins the Hart: 1999, 2003, 2008, 2012, 2016, 2019, 2022
  • Loses the Hart to another non-Canadian: 1998, 2009, 2010
  • Loses the Hart to a Canadian: 1995, 2000, 2001, 2011

I don't see much of a difference. Going back to 1994, a Canadian player won the Art Ross 15 times and won the Hart in 8 of those seasons (53%). A non-Canadian player won the Art Ross 15 times and won the Hart in 7 of those seasons (54%). Basically the same.

A Canadian player won the Art Ross, but lost the Hart to a non-Canadian four times (1994 - Gretzky AR, Fedorov Hart; 1997 - Lemieux AR, Hasek Hart; 2013 - St. Louis AR, Ovechkin Hart; 2022 - McDavid AR, Matthews Hart).

A non-Canadian player won the Art Ross, but lost the Hart to a Canadian four times (1995 - Jagr AR, Lindros Hart; 2000 - Jagr AR, Pronger Hart; 2001 - Jagr AR, Sakic Hart; and 2011 - Sedin AR, Perry). Same number of instances for both.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TatteredTornNFrayed

avsfan9

Registered User
Jul 28, 2011
4,064
2,895
Kuch and Mcdavids 100 assists cancel each other out . Mack had 50+ goals, he will win it.
 

ChaoticOrange

Registered User
Jun 29, 2008
50,579
29,244
Edmonton
IMO this is MacKinnon's year.

Particularly since it's voted on by hockey writers, MacKinnon hasn't gotten one, he's arguably gotten robbed of it in the past, and he's legitimately had an excellent season
 
  • Like
Reactions: GirardSpinorama

Canadienna

Registered User
Jan 27, 2015
11,945
16,356
Dew drops and rainforest
Mackinnon
Kucherov
McDavid
Matthews

No "bad" choice among the top 3 but that's how I would rank them.

Kuch has 6 extra points over MacKinnon. Stretched over 82 games that's one extra point every 14 games. Considering the difference in off puck play between the two, I think MacK deserves it more.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GirardSpinorama

Golden_Jet

Registered User
Sep 21, 2005
22,803
11,133
Another question, I wonder who the voters put in 5th place, probably a lot of differences on 5th.
Top 4 pretty easy.
 

NVious

Registered User
Dec 20, 2022
961
1,900
Matthews AINEC, 69 goals, yep 69....6...9

Nuff said to the rest of the bozos and their pathetic little round numbers
 
  • Like
Reactions: Danarqhy

Video Nasty

Registered User
Mar 12, 2017
4,742
8,309
Kuch deserves MVP.

The Art Ross winner consistently wins the Hart trophy if the Art Ross winner is Canadian. When a European player wins the Art Ross the Hart voting gets difficult to predict.

The only things that make me mildly want to see Kucherov not get the Hart are due to the pretend victim complex fabrications about playing on a team with little talent and nationality bias.

Draisaitl won the Art Ross and had the overwhelming majority of first place votes in 2019-2020.

Kucherov won the Art Ross and had all but 7 of the first place votes and won with 98.1% in 2018-2019.

Malkin won the Art Ross and collected 98.9% of the vote in 2011-2012.

Daniel Sedin won the Art Ross and lost a close vote to Perry, who had the hot streak storyline going on in a year where Crosby and Malkin each missed half a season, and Ovechkin was garbage. Henrik Sedin won both the year prior, with Ovechkin finishing a close second.

Malkin won the Art Ross and lost to fellow Russian Ovechkin in 2008-2009.

Forsberg won the Art Ross and had 80% of the Hart vote in 2002-2003.

That covers the past 20 or so seasons and doesn’t include examples like Fedorov winning the Hart over Gretzky in 1993-1994, Hasek winning Harts as a netminder, and Jagr winning one and finishing runner up to Hasek on season.

False narrative debunked.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GirardSpinorama

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad