Hard Caps prevent dynasties?

[SENSible1*]

We've all heard this mantra repeated by the PA mouthpeices on this board. According to their theory under a hard cap:
-Top teams won't be able to add top free agents.
-Top teams won't be able to maintain their corps.
-Therefore a hard cap means mediocrity for all and that dynasties are a thing of the past.

Just thought they'd like to comment on the Patriot's resiging of Corey Dillon. (You remember him; the free agent star they added the year before who helped lead them to their 3rd Superbowl in the last 4 years.)

Looks like well managed teams can find and maintain success under a hard cap system.

Reward brains, not bucks.

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[Morbo]

Reward brains, not bucks.

Speaking of tiresome, clicheed and meaningless mantras....

Any other examples other than the Patriots? One exception doesn't prove anything.

 

[chiavsfan]

The NBA is a capped world...granted its a softer cap, but the same eams seem to be there every year there too

San Antonio, LA (until this year), New Jersey

 

[Isles72]

it all depends on the situation ...

What happens to the Thrashers 3-4 years from now when they have to make a decision on who to give the big bucks to .

Kovalchuk,Heatly,Lehtonen are 3 franchise type guys who will want their coin one way or the other during their careers .Do all three take less than market value so they can try to win a cup or two ? Do the Thrashers trade one of them for more all round depth at half the price ?

it sure will be interesting to see some gm's who have havent really had to follow a budget build a team

 

[Patman]

Any other examples other than the Patriots? One exception doesn't prove anything.

Why is it an exception? How long has the hard cap been in the NFL? 8-9 years? The Pats have won 3 superbowls in the last 4 years. Just because the team doesn't have players that ESPN drools over doesn't make it less of an actual dynasty in a capped world.

 

[Isles72]

The NBA is a capped world...granted its a softer cap, but the same eams seem to be there every year there too

San Antonio, LA (until this year), New Jersey

meh , get yourself a dominent Center in basketball and you will be a contender for the length of his ''prime'' years .

 

[Morbo]

The NBA is a capped world...granted its a softer cap, but the same eams seem to be there every year there too

San Antonio, LA (until this year), New Jersey

It's a lot softer. Look at the salary spread between the Knicks and the Raptors, for instance. This is precisely what Bettman wants to avoid. They want a very tight spread between floor and ceiling for hockey.

Only half a dozen or so different teams have won the NBA title since the cap was put in in 1984-5. Now, that speaks to Thunderstruck's misapplied Patriots argument in a sense, because there were indeed dynasty teams in the last 20 years in the capped NBA...but this is precisely the OPPOSITE of what Bettman wants in the NHL.

He wants it like the current NFL, where you have different teams in there all the time.

 

[Bruwinz37]

Dynasties can still happen, but they will be more rare which makes them more special. Who cares about dynasties though? I didnt get any particular thrill out of seeing Detroit win a bunch of Cups....ditto NJ. Actually I found it quite frustrating. Are we to believe that fans from other cities sat back in awe and admiration as this happened? No way!

Teams that learn to manage the cap will always be in the running. I think one of the best effects of the cap is that all teams will always have some hope to compete. This is what will help the NHL survive in this generation where people in non hockey hotbeds dont have time to get interested in a perrenial loser.

Is a hard cap perfect? No, but it is better than the alternatives.

 

[chiavsfan]

I did preceed my statements with "soft"...and I agree, get a good center, win forever...another reason I find basketball unwatchable now

 

[Morbo]

Just thought they'd like to comment on the Patriot's resiging of Corey Dillon. (You remember him; the free agent star they added the year before who helped lead them to their 3rd Superbowl in the last 4 years.)

Sure.

Would you like to comment on Ty Law, Troy Brown, Roman Phifer, or David Patten, who have all been turfed to make room for Dillon?

 

[SENSible1*]

Speaking of tiresome, clicheed and meaningless mantras....

Meaningless???...perhaps to the fan of a team with far more money than brains.

Any other examples other than the Patriots? One exception doesn't prove anything.

Hmmm....who did the Pats play in this years superbowl?

Oh ya, that NFC franchise that has been consistently excellent over the last 5 years.

 

[mooseOAK*]

I don't see the big problem, there hasn't been a dynasty in the NHL since the '80's.

 

[Mess]

Speaking of tiresome, clicheed and meaningless mantras....

Any other examples other than the Patriots? One exception doesn't prove anything.

Agreed

On top of that the Patriots are not even a good example anyways .. Because they do not have a lot of Star Power to start with .. Brady is not an Elway or Marino type but certainly gets the job done and a whole NO NAME cast of Receivers and often the system that makes Antwain Smith or whatever cast off running back in this last case Dillion who fleed to bottom feeding Cincy Bengals for a chance at the playoffs, better then they are .

They have a great coach that adapts to the opponent and outplay, outwit and outlast most opponents ..

They are almost like the Calgary Flames of last years performance 3 out of 4 years , with a twist in that they win ..IMO

I will give the Pats their due and the one thing I admire most , and that is often its players take less money to stay with the team and put the team success first in front of their own Financial gain .. You hear it over and over .. even from Brady .. He wins 3 Super Bowls and half the league would pay him a fortune but he tells his agent just get me a fair deal with NE .. That kind of loyalty is lost in sports today ..

 

[SENSible1*]

Sure.

We're waiting.

Would you like to comment on Ty Law, Troy Brown, Roman Phifer, or David Patten, who have all been turfed to make room for Dillon?

I'd love to.

I'm expecting they'll have about the same effect on the Patriots as their cast-offs for the past 3 years. (see that is how you comment on a question, not by posting another question)

 

[Charge_Seven]

Meaningless???...perhaps to the fan of a team with far more money than brains.


Hmmm....who did the Pats play in this years superbowl?

Oh ya, that NFC franchise that has been consistently excellent over the last 5 years.

The Eagles are not a dynasty, and if you believe so I think it's time you move to the kids board.

 

[ACC1224]

Football is a game of set plays where the Coaches have a huge impact on the outcome. Does the Coach count against the cap?

 

[Bruwinz37]

Agreed

On top of that the Patriots are not even a good example anyways .. Because they do not have a lot of Star Power to start with .. Brady is not an Elway or Marino type but certainly gets the job done and a whole NO NAME cast of Receivers and often the system that makes Antwain Smith or whatever cast off running back in this last case Dillion who fleed to bottom feeding Cincy Bengals for a chance at the playoffs, better then they are .

They have a great coach that adapts to the opponent and outplay, outwit and outlast most opponents ..

They are almost like the Calgary Flames of last years performance 3 out of 4 years , with a twist in that they win ..IMO

Nonsense. The Pats lineup is filled with stars and anyone who watches them play on a weekly basis would know this. Perhaps Tom Brady does not put up the same stats as some of the supposed all time greats, but he does whatever it takes to win. He is the best QB in the NFL right now and has a good chance at being the best ever. Ty Law (who was injured a lot of last year) is arguably in the top 3 CBs in the league. Richard Seymour is an All Pro defensive tackle, Corey Dillon ran for 1500 yards, Deion Branch will prove to be one of the top 10 WRs in the league if healthy next year, and their safeties are probably the best group in all of football.

To credit all of the Pats success to a "system" is just wrong. They have quality at almost every position and stars at many positions.

 

[SENSible1*]

The Eagles are not a dynasty, and if you believe so I think it's time you move to the kids board.

No, the Eagles are not a "dynasty", but they have been consistently excellent while working under a hard cap that many have claimed promotes mediocrity.

As for your rellocation suggestion, I prefer to post here instead of the Leafs board. (although I do make the occasional exception)

 

[Charge_Seven]

Nonsense. The Pats lineup is filled with stars and anyone who watches them play on a weekly basis would know this. Perhaps Tom Brady does not put up the same stats as some of the supposed all time greats, but he does whatever it takes to win. He is the best QB in the NFL right now and has a good chance at being the best ever. Ty Law (who was injured a lot of last year) is arguably in the top 3 CBs in the league. Richard Seymour is an All Pro defensive tackle, Corey Dillon ran for 1500 yards, Deion Branch will prove to be one of the top 10 WRs in the league if healthy next year, and their safeties are probably the best group in all of football.

To credit all of the Pats success to a "system" is just wrong. They have quality at almost every position and stars at many positions.

Best QB in th eleague right now and good chance at being the best ever? That's one of the most disgusting things I've ever heard in my life.

 

[Charge_Seven]

No, the Eagles are not a "dynasty", but they have been consistently excellent while working under a hard cap that many have claimed promotes mediocrity.

As for your rellocation suggestion, I prefer to post here instead of the Leafs board. (although I do make the occasional exception)

You first called them one when giving "another example of a dynasty". Now you're saying they're not, which is fair, because they definitely are not.

You can argue the Eagles have not been able to push themselves to a Super Bowl win becasue they lack the cap room to do so, can you not?

 

[ACC1224]

Best QB in th eleague right now and good chance at being the best ever? That's one of the most disgusting things I've ever heard in my life.

I'd take him on my Steelers in a heartbeat. I don't think he is the most athletic or talented but all he does is win which is the most important thing. Best ever, not a chance. He could be the winningest ever, though.

 

[SENSible1*]

You first called them one when giving "another example of a dynasty". Now you're saying they're not, which is fair, because they definitely are not.

"Dynasty" was used to counter the hard cap promotes mediocrity theory. We both know that a dynasty like the Patriots is extremely difficult to attain in any sport using any CBA.

Only one team can win every year, but the Eagles have maintained excellence in spite of working under a hard cap.

You can argue the Eagles have not been able to push themselves to a Super Bowl win becasue they lack the cap room to do so, can you not?

I'm sure a Leaf fan would be far more adept at arguing that a team is one big free agent signing away from winning. I leave it in your capable hands.

 

[Charge_Seven]

"Dynasty" was used to counter the hard cap promotes mediocrity theory. We both know that a dynasty like the Patriots is extremely difficult to attain in any sport using any CBA.

Only one team can win every year, but the Eagles have maintained excellence in spite of working under a hard cap.


I'm sure a Leaf fan would be far more adept at arguing that a team is one big free agent signing away from winning. I leave it in your capable hands.

Yes, it's virtually impossible to win 3 times in 4 years with any sort of a restrictive CBA in place. But as well all know (and us Leafs fans know better than many) making the playoffs, and going a considerable distance means nothing unless you win. The Leafs have been a fixture in the playoffs the last few years, but I don't remember anyone giving them a trophy for it. lol

As for your jab at the Leafs/Leafs fans, I'd say you want a Rangers, or Avalanche fan in here to discuss that, not a Leafs fan, we sign the mid-high end free agents, not the top of the line models.

 

[Charge_Seven]

I'd take him on my Steelers in a heartbeat. I don't think he is the most athletic or talented but all he does is win which is the most important thing. Best ever, not a chance. He could be the winningest ever, though.

I'd take him over Gannon (who's currently dead...or at least dying), and Collins, on my Raiders no problem, however in the case of your Steelers, I don't know that I'd take Brady over Roethlisberger (although it's entirely possible it's just because I hate Brady and the Patriots to the core, far more than I hate the Habs or the Sens). Roethlisberger was absolutely fantastic this season, and although was not too great in the playoffs, he needs more poise, that's it. He's a big guy, and he's reasonably mobile. He will be a top 5 in the league within another 2 seasons.

 

[Larionov]

Best QB in th eleague right now and good chance at being the best ever? That's one of the most disgusting things I've ever heard in my life.

Brady's numbers are currently better than Joe Montana's were at the same stage of their respective careers. Anyone care to argue that Montana wasn't one of the greatest QBs of all time?

The Pats have indeed proven that dynasties can be built in the cap era, but personally I think dynasties are overrated. If you constantly have a handful of franchises doing all the winning, there is a flipside to that, and that is a handful of franchises that are constant doormats. The greatest part about the NFL is the fact that every one of the 32 teams going to camp this summer have a realistic shot at getting to the playoffs, and most have a realistic shot of going to the Super Bowl if everything falls the right way. All you have to do is look at the way Carolina rebounded from the depths of 1-15 to go to the Super Bowl, and the way San Diego rebounded from being a joke to being a playoff team, to see that this is true.

The flip side of this is Major League Baseball. If you are a fan in Milwaukee, Kansas City, Tampa Bay, or any other number of small markets, you went into spring training this year knowing full well that your team didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of getting to the playoffs. The best you could hope for was that one of your better veterans had a good year, so that you could sent him to the Yankees for cash and prospects at the trade deadline.

If the choice is dynasties vs. competitive balance, I'm taking the balance every time.