Gretzky vs. Jordan

[Bluesguru]

Doesn't Barry Bonds deserve consideration as well?

One season he got on base 60% of the time and had an OPS of 1.422

Runner-up in those categories were 47% and 1.088

True, but he was juiced. I wouldn’t count him because of that. Numbers wise yes, but it’s obvious his performance was enhanced.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i might be talking out of school because i don't follow baseball at all but weren't they all juiced when barry bonds was killing everybody?

 

[brachyrynchos]

The Sosa vs McGwire Home run race in '98 was credited to juicing. I think it was andro, which was under the radar at the time and wasn't banned until later, much like Ephedrine which was popular at the time.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Doesn't Barry Bonds deserve consideration as well?

One season he got on base 60% of the time and had an OPS of 1.422

Runner-up in those categories were 47% and 1.088

Correct.

When he was 39.

Does that tell you anything?

 

[bobbyking]

Another thing, gretzky had guys like messier and kurri. It was proven that without jordan, scottie pippen isnt much at all. Jordan's bulls were much weaker in depth than gretzky's oilers, yet they still won 6 championships.

Oilers won a cup after Wayne left and the Bulls only lost 2less regular season games the year Jordan left

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

It's so difficult to compare players from different eras who played in the same league, how do we compare athletes from different sports?

By any metric you look at, Gretzky dominated the NHL to a greater degree than Jordan dominated the NBA. And Gretzky isn't even the best hockey player who ever played (that honour belongs to a defenseman from Parry Sound).

Gretzky dominated offensively. He barely played defense.

Jordan was a great defensive player. And dominate offensively.

 

[Babe Ruth]

Ruth some season had more homerun than some team I think, it was some crazy separation for the homerun..

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Yeah.. in 1920, Ruth actually hit more homers than every team in the American League. A feat that will probably never be duplicated. Understood, there were fewer franchises back then, but it's sick.

Ruth was also a dominant pitcher, but was taken off the mound in order to hit in every game. Dominant hitter & dominant pitcher, also probably not capable of duplication in modern baseball. peace

 

[DannyGallivan]

Gretzky dominated offensively. He barely played defense.

Jordan was a great defensive player. And dominate offensively.

So Jordan was more like Bobby Orr... only not as dominant. I get it.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Gretzky's records have not even come close to being broken. MJs numbers are at least approachable.

The only reason that's true is because Gretzky played almost his entire career in the highest scoring era.

If he played in Gordie Howe's day or in the 2000s and 2010s Gretzky's career totals would not be so untouchable:

NHL & WHA Career Leaders and Records for Adjusted Goals | Hockey-Reference.com

NHL & WHA Career Leaders and Records for Adjusted Points | Hockey-Reference.com

 

[SML2]

If you want to base it on one thing, it's goalie equipment.
He had his 200 PT seasons before Reggie Lemelin's airlite pads went league wide. That's significant because prior to airlites, pads were leather and soaked up water. This is why standup goalies were a thing. The airlites were foam, allowing them to be both bigger and lighter. Without these, butterfly style goalies don't happen. Goalies don't become 6'5"and better. Gretzky came along at the perfect time to dominate. If He were ten years earlier or later, it's a different career.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Gretzky dominated offensively. He barely played defense.

Jordan was a great defensive player. And dominate offensively.

but basketball and hockey are fundamentally different sports. gretzky dominated offensively to unfathomable degrees but didn't play particularly good defense. jordan dominated offensively, but not to unfathomably degrees though for various reasons he is the highest per-game scorer ever, and dominated defensively.

but i can think of only one hockey player ever who was the best offensive player and a year-in, year-out top three defensive player. that's bobby orr. he is a total unapproachable unicorn. the inverse, the one single year of fedorov's 20 year career where he was the best defensive player and a top three offensive player, is endlessly ridiculously mythologized.

in basketball, you have kobe bryant, probably not even a top ten player all time, who at his peak was 90% of jordan on offense, 90% of jordan on defense, and yes both at the same time. he wasn't as smart as jordan, or quite as clutch as jordan, and even with the same coach he didn't know how to keep teammates in the right headspace the way jordan did, and so at his peak his teams weren't as successful as jordan's nor was he as great as jordan, but if we break it down to just how good he was at putting the ball in the basket, that's 9/10 of jordan. ditto just as a defensive player.

by the same token, clyde drexler, jordan's exact contemporary, was 80% of jordan on both ends at his peak. these are great players, all time hall of fame players, but they are not unicorns.

now imagine a player that's 80% of orr on both ends, year-in, year-out. that player would be potvin's absolute best day stretched out over years. that player would be the second greatest defenseman of all time, and depending on longevity would probably be the #4 or 5 player all time.

so i don't think in the context of their respective sports it makes sense to hold gretzky to jordan's simultaneous best defensive/best offensive player accomplishment. in basketball, it's simply much less unfathomable. hakeem olajuwon, imo a top ten player all time but closer to patrick roy than he is to bobby orr, has a four year peak where he finished 3, 3, 4, 4 in total points, 4, 3, 2, 2 in points/game, two defensive player of the years, an MVP, two championships, and two finals MVPs. who in hockey has a run like that? nobody ever except orr.

 

[psycat]

but basketball and hockey are fundamentally different sports. gretzky dominated offensively to unfathomable degrees but didn't play particularly good defense. jordan dominated offensively, but not to unfathomably degrees though for various reasons he is the highest per-game scorer ever, and dominated defensively.

but i can think of only one hockey player ever who was the best offensive player and a year-in, year-out top three defensive player. that's bobby orr. he is a total unapproachable unicorn. the inverse, the one single year of fedorov's 20 year career where he was the best defensive player and a top three offensive player, is endlessly ridiculously mythologized.

in basketball, you have kobe bryant, probably not even a top ten player all time, who at his peak was 90% of jordan on offense, 90% of jordan on defense, and yes both at the same time. he wasn't as smart as jordan, or quite as clutch as jordan, and even with the same coach he didn't know how to keep teammates in the right headspace the way jordan did, and so at his peak his teams weren't as successful as jordan's nor was he as great as jordan, but if we break it down to just how good he was at putting the ball in the basket, that's 9/10 of jordan. ditto just as a defensive player.

by the same token, clyde drexler, jordan's exact contemporary, was 80% of jordan on both ends at his peak. these are great players, all time hall of fame players, but they are not unicorns.

now imagine a player that's 80% of orr on both ends, year-in, year-out. that player would be potvin's absolute best day stretched out over years. that player would be the second greatest defenseman of all time, and depending on longevity would probably be the #4 or 5 player all time.

so i don't think in the context of their respective sports it makes sense to hold gretzky to jordan's simultaneous best defensive/best offensive player accomplishment. in basketball, it's simply much less unfathomable. hakeem olajuwon, imo a top ten player all time but closer to patrick roy than he is to bobby orr, has a four year peak where he finished 3, 3, 4, 4 in total points, 4, 3, 2, 2 in points/game, two defensive player of the years, an MVP, two championships, and two finals MVPs. who in hockey has a run like that? nobody ever except orr.

I have no problem ranking Orr as the second greatest hockey player of all time but he is simply not close to Gretzky(noone is- Orr, Howe and Lemieux are all closer to the pack than they are to Gretzky, in Orr's case who knows if he would be in the same stratosphere as Gretzky with a full career since he didn't have one)

 

[VanIslander]

Gretzky dominated offensively. He barely played defense.

Jordan was a great defensive player. And dominate offensively.

Gretzky leads the NHL in career shorthanded goals, including five individual seasons, so he was great on the penalty kill.

His playoff penalty kill shorthanded goal total only trails Messier.

You do NOT have to be a physical player to be effective defensively in the NHL.

Top 5 in career plus-minus:

1. Robinson, D
2. Orr, D
3. Bourque, D
4. Gretzky, C
5. Clarke, C

When Gretzky is on the ice, whether even strength, powerplay or shorthanded, the likelihood of his team scoring is unparalleled for a forward.

If you were there, you'd understand.

The greatest hockey mind knows where to be when to make a checkmate when others think it's checkers.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Gretzky leads the NHL in career shorthanded goals, including five individual seasons, so he was great on the penalty kill.

His playoff penalty kill shorthanded goal total only trails Messier.

You do NOT have to be a physical player to be effective defensively in the NHL.

Top 5 in career plus-minus:

1. Robinson, D
2. Orr, D
3. Bourque, D
4. Gretzky, C
5. Clarke, C

When Gretzky is on the ice, whether even strength, powerplay or shorthanded, the likelihood of his team scoring is unparalleled for a forward.

If you were there, you'd understand.

The greatest hockey mind knows where to be when to make a checkmate when others think it's checkers.

Shorthanded goals has nothing to do with defensive play, especially in the 80's. Mario is 4th all-time and Bure 11th both with limited careers.

Once Gretzky left Edmonton, he was -33 for the rest of his career.

What do you mean by "if you were there"?

 

[VanIslander]

Every time Gretzky was on the ice, the play REVOLVED around him, even strength, pp and pk.

When i was in high school in 1987, I know he only scored 183 points, he having just having had five consecutive years of more, and yeah his 34 points in 21 games was his least total of the 6 times he led the NHL playoffs in scoring, ... but it was still the single greatest year I'd ever seen (beside Hasek, a very different position, much later).

 

[Nino33]

Once Gretzky left Edmonton, he was -33 for the rest of his career.

Well he was -34 over the last two years in New York. The first ten years after leaving Edmonton he was +1

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Well he was -34 over the last two years in New York. The first ten years after leaving Edmonton he was +1

8 years in LA, -5.

3 years in NY, -22.

18 games in St Louis, -6.

We are comparing Gretzky to Jordan, as all-time greats. If you feel being a +1 over 10 seasons is not a detriment, fine.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Every time Gretzky was on the ice, the play REVOLVED around him, even strength, pp and pk.

When i was in high school in 1987, I know he only scored 183 points, he having just having had five consecutive years of more, and yeah his 34 points in 21 games was his least total of the 6 times he led the NHL playoffs in scoring, ... but it was still the single greatest year I'd ever seen (beside Hasek, a very different position, much later).

Great.

But the point we were discussing was not Gretzky's offense (best ever), but his lack of defense.

Too bad you were too young to see Orr.

 

[Nino33]

If you feel being a +1 over 10 seasons is not a detriment, fine.

Actually, I don't feel plus/minus is a significant stat to point at to prove anything (I don't know any hockey fans that do)

We are comparing Gretzky to Jordan, as all-time greats.

I've been watching sports since 1976, and I'll take Gretzky as more dominant, for me it's not even remotely close.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Actually, I don't feel plus/minus is a significant stat to point at to prove anything (I don't know any hockey fans that do)




I've been watching sports since 1976, and I'll take Gretzky as more dominant, for me it's not even remotely close.

That's just being foolish.

Taken in context, its a valuable indicator, like most stats. Coaches have been using it for decades.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I have no problem ranking Orr as the second greatest hockey player of all time but he is simply not close to Gretzky(noone is- Orr, Howe and Lemieux are all closer to the pack than they are to Gretzky, in Orr's case who knows if he would be in the same stratosphere as Gretzky with a full career since he didn't have one)

That's a minority opinion.

As for Orr, I'm not comparing careers. Just who was the better player. That would be #4.

 

[Nino33]

That's just being foolish.

Taken in context, its a valuable indicator, like most stats. Coaches have been using it for decades.

You provided no context, you just pointed at plus/minus



As for foolish, this statement certainly is...

Shorthanded goals has nothing to do with defensive play

 

[CHIP72]

I'm not just saying this because I'm on a hockey-focused message board, but IMO Wayne Gretzky was more dominant in his sport than Michael Jordan was in his sport.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

You provided no context, you just pointed at plus/minus



As for foolish, this statement certainly is...

OK, so you feel goals scored short-handed is an indicator of defensive play.

So, how do you see Gretzky's defensive play. Because he has the most short-handed goals, is he the best defense forward ever? Or just above average? Or average?

 

[Nino33]

OK, so you feel goals scored short-handed is an indicator of defensive play.

I said saying "shorthanded goals has nothing to do with defensive play" is foolish, that's what I said

I've no interest in carrying on this discussion any further; have a nice weekend