Giroux/Panthers Continuous GDT

[Hollywood Cannon]

Still not sure resigning Risto was Fletcher's call, the Dino advisors want the Flyers to be "hard to play against" and think Risto fits the bill.

Why suddenly jump from 4/4 to 5/5 when you were just talking about trading him at the TDL, Fletcher had the leverage, could have gotten a 1st and assets, so he was under no pressure to resign him. Just smells like a Dino move.

In order to rebuild in the 1990s, Snider had to fire Holmgren and Clarke - they both consider "rebuild" a dirty word.

You’re talking completely out of your ass. In case you haven’t noticed, Chuck is a Dino.

 

[deadhead]

You’re talking completely out of your ass. In case you haven’t noticed, Chuck is a Dino.

Chuck drafted York, Andrae and traded for Atkinson and Ellis. Traded away Myers and Hagg.
And he keeps saying the Flyers need more youth and skill.
Bunch of smurfs - that doesn't fit the Clarke/Holmgren template.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Chuck drafted York, Andrae and traded for Atkinson and Ellis. Traded away Myers and Hagg.
And he keeps saying the Flyers need more youth and skill.
Bunch of smurfs - that doesn't fit the Clarke/Holmgren template.

Keep telling yourself that. Anything to justify your fantasies in your head.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Still not sure resigning Risto was Fletcher's call, the Dino advisors want the Flyers to be "hard to play against" and think Risto fits the bill.

Why suddenly jump from 4/4 to 5/5 when you were just talking about trading him at the TDL, Fletcher had the leverage, could have gotten a 1st and assets, so he was under no pressure to resign him. Just smells like a Dino move.

In order to rebuild in the 1990s, Snider had to fire Holmgren and Clarke - they both consider "rebuild" a dirty word.

Of course it was Fletcher's call. He has the real power, and a huge chunk of it.

He is the one who had been obsessed with bringing in Risto for years, by his own admission. He is the one who grotesquely overpaid to make it happen. Of course it makes sense he misjudged him more later. He misjudged him for years. Misjudging more is in character.

Believe it: Fletcher has agency. He makes decisions. He isn't a feeble helpless puppet who would flourish if set free, his time with the Wild shows that. He makes a ton of mistakes. He doesn't deserve your undying loyalty.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Chuck drafted York, Andrae and traded for Atkinson and Ellis. Traded away Myers and Hagg.
And he keeps saying the Flyers need more youth and skill.
Bunch of smurfs - that doesn't fit the Clarke/Holmgren template.

You forgot about acquisitions like Ristolainen, Thompson, and Yandle. And his need to fulfill obsolete roles. Very selective.

 

[kudymen]

I just believe that all good moves were done by Fletcher

And its just a shame that all his good moves were nulified by bad moves by other people. Yes these moves were also part of a general manager's job but no they were NOT done by him

 

[renberg]

Fletcher looks like a guy that wants to get along with others and work towards a consensus decision. The issue with that style is if the decision proves to be a poor one, the stink is still on you even if you opposed it. Better to fight the decision and walk away if it isn’t what you support in order to maintain your name and integrity.
Clarke might have been the force behind the Ristolainen decisions but Fletcher signed off on them so they’re his now. The same goes with the AV ones; NAK; Ghost; etc. That’s a bad losing streak for a decision maker.

 

[Beef Invictus]

And if he is yielding that much power, then it's still his fault for yielding it and following that style

 

[Pet Charles]

Lol

A full year of no Giroux and whatever other replacement level players Fletch brings in. All he's done is get farther and farther away from the best correlation to winning games (strong offensive and defensive transition metrics) and will double (quadruple?) down this year.

65 points max

You’ll have to explain with more details of what you mean if you’re expecting a response. Be colorful in your argument but specific vis-a-vis the subject.

Chuck drafted York, Andrae and traded for Atkinson and Ellis. Traded away Myers and Hagg.
And he keeps saying the Flyers need more youth and skill.
Bunch of smurfs - that doesn't fit the Clarke/Holmgren template.

Not a night has passed where I awoke concerned Myers was no longer on the roster. Even Ellis never appearing for the Flyers beyond the four or five game he has already played would make that a bad trade when it was made. Normally, that same deep sleep would apply to Hagg but for the reason he was shipped out. Size is not unimportant but please, no more big players with few other redeeming characteristics. This isn’t 1977.

 

[DancingPanther]

You’ll have to explain with more details of what you mean if you’re expecting a response. Be colorful in your argument but specific vis-a-vis the subject.

Not a night has passed where I awoke concerned Myers was no longer on the roster. Even Ellis never appearing for the Flyers beyond the four or five game he has already played would make that a bad trade when it was made. Normally, that same deep sleep would apply to Hagg but for the reason he was shipped out. Size is not unimportant but please, no more big players with few other redeeming characteristics. This isn’t 1977.

What? Did I not just say 65 points max agreeing with you? What are you on about

 

[mja]

Clarke is Holmgren is Fletcher. They're the same dude.

 

[deadhead]

And if he is yielding that much power, then it's still his fault for yielding it and following that style

He didn't yield that power, he was never granted that power in the first place.
Remember why they fired Hextall.

The whole problem with this organization has been the dependence on "senior advisors."

 

[Beef Invictus]

He didn't yield that power, he was never granted that power in the first place.
Remember why they fired Hextall.

The whole problem with this organization has been the dependence on "senior advisors."

He was granted MORE power than Hextall. Your statement is factually incorrect from the start. Advisors are not presidents or vice presidents. Fletcher outranks them all.

He's just incompetent. His time in Minnesota supports that.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

The reason I made such a big deal out of NAK is because those useful non-traditional depth players are one of the most consistent ways we have to eyeball organizational competence. More of a GM’s time is taken up by managing the back ends of the roster. That’s where they largely show you who they are.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Because I know it's coming and people will deliberately misread that post: NAK as an individual is far less important than what he represents in terms of process and values.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Because I know it's coming and people will deliberately misread that post: NAK is far less important than what he represents in terms of process and values.

Yep. NAK is just the flip side of Nate Thompson. Neither equates to doom. They just portend it after enough time has passed for the bad decisions to reach critical mass.

 

[DancingPanther]

The reason I made such a big deal out of NAK is because those useful non-traditional depth players are one of the most consistent ways we have to eyeball organizational competence. More of a GM’s time is taken up by managing the back ends of the roster. That’s where they largely show you who they are.

Exactly. It's not that NAK is some all star, it's that he's actually useful, but was not deemed useful by the org. He is the manifestation a huge problem

 

[Beef Invictus]

Yep. NAK is just the flip side of Nate Thompson. Neither equates to doom. They just portend it after enough time has passed for the bad decisions to reach critical mass.

And this is also why the "but TB whiffed on a move" style arguments are invalid too. They are very good because they generally get things right. They obviously have followed a good process overall. The Flyers generally get things wrong. It's a bad process overall.

It all matters.

 

[renberg]

There is no doubt that NAK had more hockey value than Brown, Thompson, MacEwen and maybe Brassard at the time that he was put on waivers-11/13/21. That being the case, why did it happen? The sensible answer is that he was not seen by Vigneault as being someone that he wanted on the club. As we know, this wasn't the first time that AV wanted to remove a player-Ghost and Jake come quickly to mind. There may have been others that we don't know about. AV didn't get canned until three weeks later-12/6/21. Could/should Fletcher have told AV that NAk was staying? Sure but that then sets management for a power struggle that they weren't ready for at that time.

 

[deadhead]

NAK had a horrid start, got in AV's doghouse after a below par 2020-21 season.

And his performance in Colorado has a lot to do with the players around him (primarily the D-men).
Switch NAK and MacEwen, NAK would be far worse here, and MacEwen better in Colorado, NAK would still be the better player, but not by some huge margin.
Regular season:
NAK w/o Maker or Toews, xGF 47.96%, xGFrel -5.38
Playoffs
NAK w/o Maker or Toews, xGF 44.27%, xGFrel -18.99

 

[renberg]

I don’t think that any of the guys added here after the 20-21 season had anything to offer than NAK did. Somewhere along the line he crossed wires with the HC and he was finished in town. NAK can skate better, shoot, pass and defend better than the guys that replaced him. It didn’t matter since AV didn’t want him around. Granted, NAK did have a penchant for taking bad penalties from time to time. However Vigneault wanted him gone.

 

[prototypical4thliner]

NAK had a horrid start, got in AV's doghouse after a below par 2020-21 season.

And his performance in Colorado has a lot to do with the players around him (primarily the D-men).
Switch NAK and MacEwen, NAK would be far worse here, and MacEwen better in Colorado, NAK would still be the better player, but not by some huge margin.
Regular season:
NAK w/o Maker or Toews, xGF 47.96%, xGFrel -5.38
Playoffs
NAK w/o Maker or Toews, xGF 44.27%, xGFrel -18.99

Getting rid of the better player is the right move? It all adds up.

 

[Pet Charles]

What? Did I not just say 65 points max agreeing with you? What are you on about

Easy, man. I suppose what I wrote sounds sarcastic, but it wasn’t meant that way. I didn’t know what part exactly of my (admittedly long) post you were commenting on and what you meant. That’s all.

 

[DancingPanther]

Easy, man. I suppose what I wrote sounds sarcastic, but it wasn’t meant that way. I didn’t know what part exactly of my (admittedly long) post you were commenting on and what you meant. That’s all.

Whatever you say chuckie

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Florida beat.