German teams in KHL?

[vorky]

The most popular misconception is that, as someone said here, "European league would work, Russia plus a few European clubs won't".

Not that this statement is wrong, but it's completely taken out of context of trend.

Rome wasn't built in a day. You can't get 16, 18 or 20 European clubs to the league right away. However, if you look at the trend, KHL adds 1-2 European teams per year which is a positive sign. It has to begin somewhere - it did begin with Latvia and Belarus. Then Slovakia, Ukraine, Czech Republic, Croatia, Finland. Then most likely Poland, Italy and Austria.

Disagree with Poland. If I look at Olivia Gransk today, it seems that KHL leadership turned it down because Jokerit was almost done. You know, KHL has a few spots now, as you said, you can not send 3-5 russian clubs to KHL in one offseason and replaced them by euro clubs. It must be a proces during years. Club by club. So, KHL had 6 spots in march 2013, Medvescak and Admiral as done projects, Milan on radar (who knows?) and Jokerit as possible done deal, maybe some german club/s in negotiating process (?), talks with Red Bulls. Poland is not priority for KHL, Germany and Finland is/was. So, KHL turned down Olivia. If Olivia appeared in 2010, KHL would maybe accept the club, but not now. I dont say Olivia is failed project forever, I dont know, but I am sure there are other priorities - Germany, Sweden, Red Bulls and I am not sure about Milan anymore.

KHL is very likely to start sending poor Russian clubs out in two or three years. No one wants more European clubs than KHL bosees themselves - that's the only way they may come ever close to profitability.

So before saying "it won't work", think of what KHL is gonna be in three or four years.

Agree

 

[fedfed]

Disagree with Poland. If I look at Olivia Gransk today, it seems that KHL leadership turned it down because Jokerit was almost done. You know, KHL has a few spots now, as you said, you can not send 3-5 russian clubs to KHL in one offseason and replaced them by euro clubs. It must be a proces during years. Club by club. So, KHL had 6 spots in march 2013, Medvescak and Admiral as done projects, Milan on radar (who knows?) and Jokerit as possible done deal, maybe some german club/s in negotiating process (?), talks with Red Bulls. Poland is not priority for KHL, Germany and Finland is/was. So, KHL turned down Olivia. If Olivia appeared in 2010, KHL would maybe accept the club, but not now. I dont say Olivia is failed project forever, I dont know, but I am sure there are other priorities - Germany, Sweden, Red Bulls and I am not sure about Milan anymore.




Agree

And I think Novokuznetsk is gone in two years. Avto too maybe.

 

[vorky]

The DEL signed a 4-Year-Contract with ServusTV in 2012. This pays each team around 250.000€ per season. And it is free tv.

Prior to that, the DEL had a contract with Sky (Pay-tv) where each team received 200.000€.

here

If that is true and all DEL clubs get only 250.000€ for tv rights, it will not be so difficult for bigest clubs like Eisbaren etc to leave DEL and join KHL. I understand why top SHL clubs does not want to join KHL, one of reasons is huge tv-deal of SHL. It seems that DEL does not have such lucrative tv deals and it is questionable if DEL is able to sign similar tv deal. Richest clubs will not lose big DEL tv-contract (opposite of SHL), so they can join KHL. Yes, KHL does not share tv revenues with clubs now, but will in future and clubs get more than 250.000€, I am sure.

 

[Bon Esprit]

I think you underestimate the loyalty of German fans to their traditions. Germans care more about their team, their identity and history than for the level of competitiveness.

Look at Hannover, they got a DEL team (which has just sold its license to Schwenningen) but they already had a team in the 2nd tier league. (Hannover Indians).

Attendance in the las couple of years:

2009/10: Scorpions: 5.074 Indians: 3.040
2010/11: Scorpions: 4.353 Indians: 3.033
2011/12: Scorpions: 3.847 Indians: 3.015
2012/13: Scorpions: 3.114 Indians: 2.831

Sure, the Scorpions had more people to their games, but the difference isn't as big as it should be, if you're arguing that a better league draws a better crowd, too.

I don't think that any fanebase in the DEL would accept playing against teams far away which they have no history/rivalries with and would accept the fact that it's unreasonable expensive to go to away games.

You are bang on, sir. Hannover is ECH town suited for 3,000 fans at the "Pferdeturm".

 

[Bon Esprit]

They said the same about Prague... Bratislava... and now Helsinki.

In a few years there will be a European conference in the KHL. At least 16 or 18 Euro cities, I'm sure.

There are already 7:
Helsinki
Riga
Minsk
Donetsk
Prague
Bratislava
Zagreb

Milano is close. And that's not counting Moscow and St. Petersburg as European cities.

As Sucrologist pointed out, nobody will ever ask fans. Just like no one asks consumers when businessmen sell other companies. They'll just make the deal.

And in Germany, there's climate, and attendance #s back it up, to basically let fans know that if they won't be filling the arena, someone else will.

As one Russian blogger pointed out, the Jokerit move to KHL didn't look good for an outside observer. "Two or three more years and they would beg KHL to let them in".

I said it in the other thread and here's no offence intended. No way a major DEL team like Cologne, Mannheim or Düsseldorf will jump leagues as long as a major league in Germany exists. Smaller markets (Bavaria or BW) have their rivalries. They don't care about Moscow or Kazan.The money part aside.
Markets with less tradition like Hamburg, Munich etc might try but fail.
Hockey in Germany is a niche sports. It's not like anyone outside a very small group even knows who Kovalchuck even is.

 

[Vicente]

I said it in the other thread and here's no offence intended. No way a major DEL team like Cologne, Mannheim or Düsseldorf will jump leagues as long as a major league in Germany exists. Smaller markets (Bavaria or BW) have their rivalries. They don't care about Moscow or Kazan.The money part aside.
Markets with less tradition like Hamburg, Munich etc might try but fail.
Hockey in Germany is a niche sports. It's not like anyone outside a very small group even knows who Kovalchuck even is.

Although hockey is far away from football's popularity, DEL has very good spectator numbers and the league is actually among the ones with best attandance in all of Europe + ice hockey is the second biggest sports by attendance in Germany.

I am sure if a team from Munich would try KHL they would get a lot of attention. If they failed then not because nobody cared but because of bad management.

 

[Vicente]

I don't think that any fanebase in the DEL would accept playing against teams far away which they have no history/rivalries with and would accept the fact that it's unreasonable expensive to go to away games.

I am sure in places like Cologne or Berlin on any time more people would show up against teams like SKA St. Petersburg, Dynamo Moscow or Ak Bars Kazan than against Wolfsburg, Nürnberg or Ingolstadt.

 

[Joey Banana]

I guess many Russians look at german hockey and see this:

1) a league that gets solid attendance for a european hockey league
2) the 2010 World Cup
3) a national team that can hold its own every year at the WC
4) big population, big cities, big arenas
5) a few successful nhl players

They see potential and they're right, there is A LOT of raw potential. But there are many, many reasons why german hockey hasn't evolved from a niche sport and has actually gotten less popular since the 80s/early 90s.

I hate to be a debby downer at your european hockey party but i don't see the benefit for either side and there are other things that actually need to be addressed in german hockey such as youth development or tv coverage.

 

[Vicente]

I guess many Russians look at german hockey and see this:

1) a league that gets solid attendance for a european hockey league
2) the 2010 World Cup
3) a national team that can hold its own every year at the WC
4) big population, big cities, big arenas
5) a few successful nhl players

They see potential and they're right, there is A LOT of raw potential. But there are many, many reasons why german hockey hasn't evolved from a niche sport and has actually gotten less popular since the 80s/early 90s.

I hate to be a debby downer at your european hockey party but i don't see the benefit for either side and there are other things that actually need to be addressed in german hockey such as youth development or tv coverage.

Well, current expansions plans by the KHL mean that there would be only 1 German KHL team - either Munich or a complete newcomer like Leipzig or Dresden.

I am pretty sure there is enough hockey interest in this country for DEL + 1 KHL team.

 

[Sanderson]

I am sure in places like Cologne or Berlin on any time more people would show up against teams like SKA St. Petersburg, Dynamo Moscow or Ak Bars Kazan than against Wolfsburg, Nürnberg or Ingolstadt.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Maybe once or twice for the novelty factor, but overall the attendance for games against European teams seems to be lower than the ones against german competition, and with that I mean preseason games, not compared with league-games.

 

[BalticWarrior]

I am willing to bet on this,that there will be a german team KHL at some point,im not even here to argue with someone,just stating the obvious.

 

[Burgs]

Well, current expansions plans by the KHL mean that there would be only 1 German KHL team - either Munich or a complete newcomer like Leipzig or Dresden.

Red Bull just announced plans to build a new multi-purpose arena in Munich for hockey and handball, replacing the aging Olympiahalle. No mention of the KHL - yet. And who knows if that arena ever gets built since they want public land for free to build it on.

Dresden (smallish arena) and Leipzig (no arena at all) have zero chance. Two years ago some St. Petersburg-based German businessman wanted to start a KHL club 'Torpedo Leipzig'... it was obvious he had no own money and just blew a lot of hot air to attract sponsors. He never did so the plan never moved forward. Despite claims that "the future foreign minister of Thailand" was going to be involved and that they would sue the German federation through to the highest court if they didn't give Torpedo their blessings. That's the amount of professionalism you can expect in German hockey.

I am pretty sure there is enough hockey interest in this country for DEL + 1 KHL team.

But not in the same market. For the club to be accepted and work out you'd have to find a city with no or weak DEL support yet at the same time a big enough arena and enough hockey fans. Good luck with that.

 

[vorky]

My opinion is that KHL will not try to create new clubs, so no Lev´s anymore.

It was said many times that KHL is/was in touch with german clubs.

Jokerit Helsinki is on its way to KHL. What does Finland a Germany have in common? Simple, KHL has tried to lure many clubs for years, but all failed - only Jokerit´s case was sucessful for KHL. The same in Germany, many attempts, all failed. DEB is against KHL, DEB and DEL/DEL-II had issues this offseason. Who knows? Maybe DEB will change mind soon...

I am sure there is something behind scenes and of course, nobody will comment it until it is done (therefore Red Bull say nothing about KHL).

 

[Vicente]

Red Bull just announced plans to build a new multi-purpose arena in Munich for hockey and handball, replacing the aging Olympiahalle. No mention of the KHL - yet. And who knows if that arena ever gets built since they want public land for free to build it on.

But not in the same market. For the club to be accepted and work out you'd have to find a city with no or weak DEL support yet at the same time a big enough arena and enough hockey fans. Good luck with that.

Do you think Red Bull has an MHL team now to get prospects for the Austrian league or DEL? 100% no! They are somehow preparing the next step but can't yet join KHL due to arena issues. As you mentioned there were some talks in the past about a new multipurpose arena for Red Bull Munich and maybe as a joint project with Bayern Munich's basketball team.

What also could be a big plus for Munich is that they have almost no DEL history and the interest in DEL by fans in Munich is only laughable. Where else if not in Munich should KHL get a German franchise?

Two traditional DEL teams (Frankfurt and Kassel) only wait for a chance to get back into the league asap!

 

[ForumNamePending]

I am sure in places like Cologne or Berlin on any time more people would show up against teams like SKA St. Petersburg, Dynamo Moscow or Ak Bars Kazan than against Wolfsburg, Nürnberg or Ingolstadt.

By the looks of it Berlin pretty much sells out every game so the only way SKA, Dynamo and Ak Bars are pulling in more fans is if they move to a bigger arena.

As for Cologne... Perhaps games against SKA, Dynamo & AK Bars would draw more fans than Wolfsburg, Nürnberg or Ingolstadt but games against Dusseldorf, Krefeld & Mannheim would probably draw better than games against Spartak, Amur & Avto.

 

[Vicente]

By the looks of it Berlin pretty much sells out every game so the only way SKA, Dynamo and Ak Bars are pulling in more fans is if they move to a bigger arena.

As for Cologne... Perhaps games against SKA, Dynamo & AK Bars would draw more fans than Wolfsburg, Nürnberg or Ingolstadt but games against Dusseldorf, Krefeld & Mannheim would probably draw better than games against Spartak, Amur & Avto.

You got that point absolutely correct. So thats why Munich is the only realistic option. KHL needs a market for further growth while DEL and German hockey also want to grow and not lose market potential. A KHL team in Munich would draw bigger crowds than the 3,400 currently I am more than sure. And Munich has no "natural" rivalries with other DEL clubs.

As you mentioned: Cologne has derbies with Düsseldorf and Krefeld and always nice top matches against Berlin and Mannheim. All these games are more or less sold out.

 

[Sanderson]

What also could be a big plus for Munich is that they have almost no DEL history and the interest in DEL by fans in Munich is only laughable. Where else if not in Munich should KHL get a German franchise?

I wouldn't be so sure about that either. Munich's hockey fans as a whole can be a bit fickle. They didn't really accept the Barons back in the days, with many preferring to go to the EHC (similar to how Hanover had two teams with similar attendance in different leagues). Many fans were very much against the sugar-daddy approach under Anschütz and wanted to have a team that had it's routs in Munich hockey history, not some artificial product that was handed from above. A KHL-team would be even worse in that regard.

Sure, some fans wouldn't mind, and maybe you could get some new ones as well, but a Red Bull sponsered team that moves to the sugar-daddy league of Europe is very much what lots of fans can't stand at all.

Fans can be like that, just look at Düsseldorf and how fans reacted to the new arena. Even when they had a great team, the support wasn't as big as it was in the past, as the new arena just wasn't the Brehmstraße.

 

[Vicente]

Fans can be like that, just look at Düsseldorf and how fans reacted to the new arena. Even when they had a great team, the support wasn't as big as it was in the past, as the new arena just wasn't the Brehmstraße.

Just have a look at google maps where ISS Dome is. It's so far away from the city centre... compare it with Cologne where the arena is in the heart of the city, just 3 minutes by train away from the central station. Who ever planned the Düsseldorf arena at that spot must be a hockey hater.

Regarding EHC Red Bull München. Just imagine they would play in KHL. They might lose some fans but others would stay and a lot of hockey tourists from Germany and Austria would come + fans from Bavarian DEL teams wouldn't see them as competitors anymore and maybe would also watch some KHL games.

 

[vorky]

I dont want to created new thread so I put it here. There is a report that Arena Events is in talks with a few german arenas. Arena Events aquired Hartwall Arena, Helsinki, earlier and has a plan to buy more arenas in Europe.

Any idea what "arenas in Germany" are they talking about? We discussed the topic earlier, I just want to know if there are any new rumours in german press.

http://www.vedomosti.ru/sport/news/15832921/timchenko-hochet-igrat-na-sobstvennom-ldu

 

[Dfire]

Ahead of next Sundays Eisbären Berlin match against Straubing, an Eisbären Allstar team led by Sven Felski will play the "Gazprom Allstars" with Alexander Medvedev himself in the line-up: http://www.o2world-berlin.de/Event/1031/Eisbaeren-Allstars-vs.-Gazprom-Export-Hockey.html

Vorky, this is big news! It can only mean that Anschütz no longer tolerates the way this season is going and therefore will sell the team and the arena. The Russians are coming.

 

[vorky]

Ahead of next Sundays Eisbären Berlin match against Straubing, an Eisbären Allstar team led by Sven Felski will play the "Gazprom Allstars" with Alexander Medvedev himself in the line-up: http://www.o2world-berlin.de/Event/1031/Eisbaeren-Allstars-vs.-Gazprom-Export-Hockey.html

Vorky, this is big news! It can only mean that Anschütz no longer tolerates the way this season is going and therefore will sell the team and the arena. The Russians are coming.

Thank you for information. As I understand it will be 7th game among Eisbaren and Gazprom AllStars. Is it so important?? I dont know what has been happening in Eisbaren - I dont know what you mean by words "Anschütz no longer tolerates the way this season is going". Can you explain?

 

[PietB]

Thank you for information. As I understand it will be 7th game among Eisbaren and Gazprom AllStars. Is it so important?? I dont know what has been happening in Eisbaren - I dont know what you mean by words "Anschütz no longer tolerates the way this season is going". Can you explain?

I bet he meant the way both Berlin, but also Hamburg - both owned by Anschutz - are playing right now, being last and second-to-last in the standings.

Fun fact: Hamburg and Berlin are playing each other today. Regardless of the outcome, one of the teams will either remain or be last after tonight.

 

[Sanderson]

That comment wasn't supposed to be taken seriously, it was sarcasm.

 

[Sokil]

I said it in the other thread and here's no offence intended. No way a major DEL team like Cologne, Mannheim or Düsseldorf will jump leagues as long as a major league in Germany exists. Smaller markets (Bavaria or BW) have their rivalries. They don't care about Moscow or Kazan.The money part aside.
Markets with less tradition like Hamburg, Munich etc might try but fail.
Hockey in Germany is a niche sports. It's not like anyone outside a very small group even knows who Kovalchuck even is.

Rivalries can end and begin in a day, it doesn't matter if teams are rivals. They'll become rivals with new teams. All it takes is one dirty hit - this is hockey.

 

[Eisbaerenfan]

Rivalries can end and begin in a day, it doesn't matter if teams are rivals. They'll become rivals with new teams. All it takes is one dirty hit - this is hockey.

I partly agree, and I don't believe that it's so much an issue of the fan-side or even cultural elements. I think the success of a German KHL team would more depend on the strategy of the other side: the owner or organizer of such a franchise/club.

I think the only way it could be successful is to start it with something that creates buzz. Someone needs to build a new state of the art arena in a city with a market. The only city that comes to my mind is actually Frankfurt.