Olympics: game thread - China vs USA

[Albatros]

LOL

You're free to deduce how a Chinese public official ostensibly making less than $100 per month sends her kid to Stanford.

 

[Atas2000]

You're free to deduce how a Chinese public official ostensibly making less than $100 per month sends her kid to Stanford.

You are free to invest some time into educating yourself first about how chinese elites work, then how american elites work and then maybe how elites work in general.

And maybe you would not come up with the hilarious BS about "living in freeedom".

Also I don't care about uneducated western making sound waves about "ostensibly making". Every society works differently. And the western model is by far not the best nor the most efficient one.

So again, learn at least about how the chinese elites are comprised, what the factions are, what their respective ties and ideologies are, then we might have a healthy discussion about someone's daughter in the US.

 

[Urbanskog]

There is no Chinese hockey project beyond this tournament, at the World Championships they will again rely on the usual roster of Chinese-born players which is simply nowhere near good enough to establish itself at a higher level.

That is conjecture.

 

[Albatros]

That is conjecture.

China's regular national team has not ceased to exist during this project.

 

[Urbanskog]

China's regular national team has not ceased to exist during this project.

The imported KRS players have not been able to play for the national team because of eligibility issues. Now this issue appears to be fixed as these players are partaking in the Olympics.

 

[Albatros]

Some of these import players would have been eligible to represent China already at the 2019 World Championships, yet none played a single game for China before this tournament. The actual national team has been completely separate until shortly before the tournament and nothing suggests that these Olympics are only the beginning of something larger.

 

[Urbanskog]

Some of these import players would have been eligible to represent China already at the 2019 World Championships, yet none played a single game for China before this tournament.

Unless they were citizens, they were not.

 

[Albatros]

Unless they were citizens, they were not.

Come on now, they were going to be issued passports whenever convenient.

 

[Urbanskog]

Come on now, they were going to be issued passports whenever convenient.

And now they have them, rendering them eligible to represent China in future tournaments.

 

[Albatros]

And now they have them, rendering them eligible to represent China in future tournaments.

...which does not equal any intention to do so, neither from the side of the players nor from the side of the Chinese national team.

 

[Urbanskog]

...which does not equal any intention to do so, neither from the side of the players nor from the side of the Chinese national team.

Which also does not mean that none of these players would represent China in the future.

 

[Albatros]

One or two Han Chinese players might, but already that would be surprising.

 

[metalan2]

Cyrus has a good video on Americans choosing to represent another nation.

These athletes had a choice, they have different journeys, and in a previous video he mentioned that over 180 olympics have represented a country they were not born in.

Yea..still doesn't change anything about how I'd feel. I guess I can see where they were coming from, but representing China and playing against the US? I'd feel ill.

 

[Jacob]

How common is dual citizenship in China? They seem to officially disallow it but it also seems like they’re making exceptions for Gu + the hockey team imports so I was just curious if that’s typical or a new thing and how that’s viewed over there by regular folks.

 

[Pasha71]

I hate to rain on your bigoted parade, but quite a few American Olympians were born in other countries. Hell, we are a country of immigrants. I am a foreign-born American. If I play sports and represent the US, will it be OK or not?

 

[Rabid Ranger]

How common is dual citizenship in China? They seem to officially disallow it but it also seems like they’re making exceptions for Gu + the hockey team imports so I was just curious if that’s typical or a new thing and how that’s viewed over there by regular folks.

You have it exactly right. Officially it isn't allowed but they make exceptions which they clearly did for Gu (she comes across as the ultimate opportunist here), several of the foreign born members of the hockey teams, etc. It seems to depend on 1) how much they are needed by China 2) how big a stink they make about not giving up their citizenship.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Yea..still doesn't change anything about how I'd feel. I guess I can see where they were coming from, but representing China and playing against the US? I'd feel ill.

I doubt an 18 year old like Gu has very strong political opinions. To her this is likely a win all the way around. She gets to keep her American citizenship and all the benefits that comes with it (including a number of freedoms not afforded regular Chinese), is a hero in China, and has $30,000,000 in the bank.

 

[Albatros]

How common is dual citizenship in China? They seem to officially disallow it but it also seems like they’re making exceptions for Gu + the hockey team imports so I was just curious if that’s typical or a new thing and how that’s viewed over there by regular folks.

Mostly something that the elites commonly have and that remains illegal so that it may be used against you if you happen to fall out of favor. In 99.99 percent of cases that's a PRC citizen acquiring another (or multiple other) citizenship though.

Naturalization of foreigners is not really a thing beyond these athletes, and there's a strong possibility that at least non-Han guys like Smith and Osipov will not be able to renew their Chinese passports even if they for whatever reason wished to do so.

Whether for example overseas-born Chinese are regarded as PRC citizens is oftentimes intentionally ambiguous and depends on context rather than on whether they hold another citizenship or not.

Likewise if the authorities want to make someone a nonperson in China the household registration (hukou) system generally provides a more useful avenue for administrative punishment.

 

[Elvs]

I hate to rain on your bigoted parade, but quite a few American Olympians were born in other countries. Hell, we are a country of immigrants. I am a foreign-born American. If I play sports and represent the US, will it be OK or not?

Sweden largely consists of immigrants, either 1st or 2nd generation. No one has a problem with Zibanejad or Oduya playing for team Sweden. But that's not the same as Jeremy Smith playing for China, or Henrik Karlsson playing for Kazakstan.

National teams should not be fluid like club teams. What China, Kazakstan and Belarus are doing (at the men's level), does nothing to help their own programs. These rosters spots being filled by import players, should have gone to others. Young players who actually grow up in these countries and in these programs, are getting robbed of oppurtunities because some random foreigners happened to play in their country for a couple of years.

And not only that, it also hurts other nations hockey development. There's no reason why Kazakhstan and Belarus, with most of their key players coming from North America, should play in the top World Championship division over the likes of France or Austria, or why they should steal points from Slovakia, Latvia or Germany who they'd never be competitve against otherwise.

This is the same thing as if Sweden, which has one of the best women's leagues in the world, would let import players take up half the national team roster. Even with Sweden being arguably the most liberal country in the world, this would never be accepted.

 

[Jacob]

I hate to rain on your bigoted parade, but quite a few American Olympians were born in other countries. Hell, we are a country of immigrants. I am a foreign-born American. If I play sports and represent the US, will it be OK or not?

Quite a few *Americans* were born in other countries. What % of China’s population is foreign-born?

 

[Pasha71]

Quite a few *Americans* were born in other countries. What % of China’s population is foreign-born?

I am not sure what your point is. Why can't other countries, let alone world superpowers, attract immigrants? And yes, including for athletic reasons. In World Cup 1998, US soccer team featured a guy named David Regis, who was naturalized very quickly specifically to help us on the soccer field. That stuff happens a lot.

 

[Pasha71]

And not only that, it also hurts other nations hockey development. There's no reason why Kazakhstan and Belarus, with most of their key players coming from North America, should play in the top World Championship division over the likes of France or Austria, or why they should steal points from Slovakia, Latvia or Germany who they'd never be competitve against otherwise.

Well, to start with, Kazakhstan and Belarus were a part of the Soviet hockey program. Boris Alexandrov played for Torpedo Ust Kamenogorsk for years, Sergei Fedorov played for Dynamo Minsk in the beginning of his career. I bet that if Kazakhstan and Belarus mostly attracted players from Russia (who are not good enough to be picked for Team Russia), no one would have even noticed.

And if France decides to attract some French Canadians, just like Great Britain used to do with English Canadians, that will be fine with me, really. In baseball, by the way, quite a few Israeli and Italian national team players are Jewish-American and Italian-American...

Oh, and what about Brett Hull? Born and raised in Canada, yet in 1986, he was deemed good enough for Team USA but not for Team Canada... and the rest is history. And yes, he was called a "traitor" by some Canadians.

 

[Jacob]

I am not sure what your point is. Why can't other countries, let alone world superpowers, attract immigrants?

My point is China isn’t attracting immigrants. Less than .1% of their population is foreign-born. There are 3x more Chinese expats in the US than there are expats of any origin in China.

And yes, including for athletic reasons. In World Cup 1998, US soccer team featured a guy named David Regis, who was naturalized very quickly specifically to help us on the soccer field. That stuff happens a lot.

If it happens a lot why is your only example 1 guy from 25 years ago. This isn’t one guy, it’s 11. Half their roster. Most (if not all?) have never represented China before.

 

[Pasha71]

My point is China isn’t attracting immigrants. Less than .1% of their population is foreign-born. There are 3x more Chinese expats in the US than there are expats of any origin in China.

If it happens a lot why is your only example 1 guy from 25 years ago. This isn’t one guy, it’s 11. Half their roster. Most (if not all?) have never represented China before.

Are you questioning the principle or the quantity? Is there an acceptable limit of foreign-born athletes on a national team?

You can't possibly fault an athlete for accepting an Olympic invitation from another country (especially the one where they're playing sports professionally) if their own country doesn't think they're good enough.

 

[Jacob]

Are you questioning the principle or the quantity? Is there an acceptable limit of foreign-born athletes on a national team?

I just think 50% of the team being foreigners seems a little farcical. Especially for a country that is .1% foreigners. I don’t even get caught up much in the patriotism or rooting for national teams just because. I do not follow or blindly root for team USA.

You can't possibly fault an athlete for accepting an Olympic invitation from another country (especially the one where they're playing sports professionally) if their own country doesn't think they're good enough.

I’m not faulting anyone for doing whatever they want to do. I don’t consider them “traitors” if that’s what you’re implying. At the same time I think it’s not something I’d do. Like I’d probably be good enough to represent some undeveloped tropical countries in ice hockey but if hypothetically I were asked I wouldn’t do that because it seems a little… ridiculous. Like what’s even the point of international tournaments if you can just play for whoever will let you?

Giving them Chinese names is just plain goofy though.