Olympics: game thread - China vs USA

[Pasha71]

Well, I suppose China is not the first country to recruit foreigners in order to achieve more Olympic success at home. Eight years ago, Russia got some gold medals from Victor An (a South Korean) and Vic Wild (an American). Heck, Wild just got another bronze for Russia this week.

Yes, it is a bit ridiculous, especially the Chinese names. At least when Eileen Gu, a Chinese-American, represents China, it makes some sense, even though some Americans call her a "traitor", too.

 

[Elvs]

Well, to start with, Kazakhstan and Belarus were a part of the Soviet hockey program. Boris Alexandrov played for Torpedo Ust Kamenogorsk for years, Sergei Fedorov played for Dynamo Minsk in the beginning of his career. I bet that if Kazakhstan and Belarus mostly attracted players from Russia (who are not good enough to be picked for Team Russia), no one would have even noticed.

And if France decides to attract some French Canadians, just like Great Britain used to do with English Canadians, that will be fine with me, really. In baseball, by the way, quite a few Israeli and Italian national team players are Jewish-American and Italian-American...

Oh, and what about Brett Hull? Born and raised in Canada, yet in 1986, he was deemed good enough for Team USA but not for Team Canada... and the rest is history. And yes, he was called a "traitor" by some Canadians.

You are comparing apples and oranges. Fedorov was born in Russia and played for Russia. Alexandrov was born in Kazakstan and played for Kazakstan. Yes, I'm well aware that there have been others who was born in Belarus/Kazakstan/Ukraine/Lithuania that ended up playing for Russia, and vice versa, but most of those players was born in the 60's and 70's, in what was then the Soviet Union.

I'm not entirely sure of Brett Hull's backstory, but his mother is american. Did he not have an american citizenship since birth? Either way, he is 50% Canadian and 50% American. So him deciding to switch makes perfect sense to me.

Again, apples and oranges. What you are suggesting, is that every failed NHL'er/AHL'er/ECHL'er could (in theory) go play in Norway, Italy, Slovenia, France, Austria, Great Britain, Spain or whatever, and then make up 75% of those countries national teams. You don't see a problem with this?

Imo, the point of international tournaments, is for nations to compare and measure their programs against eachother. The different world junior levels is where most of the development happens. The men's tournaments are supposed to be the final measurment, the end result, of how good different countries are at developing players.

You are talking about America is a country of immigrants. Well, 99,9% of them are still raised through the american youth hockey system, so it makes perfect sense that shey should also represent USA internationally. They are, after all, americans. Do you seriously believe Henrik Karlsson is kazak? Or that Geoff Platt is belarussian? Or that Jeremy Smith is chinese? It's not the same thing at all. They are players who are temporarely playing hockey in a foreign league, and will most certainly return home when their careers are over, if not sooner.

That's not all the same thing as Zibanejad being born and raised in Sweden, albeit with parents from Iran and Finland, nor is it the same as Dany Heatley being born in Germany simply because his father played there at the moment he was born, and then returning to Canada where he grew up. It's also not the same as american born and raised players being distant descendants of Germans, Swedes, Italians or whatever.

Now, I'm not blaming the likes of Karlsson, Platt or Smith for taking the chance to play in international tournaments. I am blaming the IIHF, who should make the requirements for switching national teams harder.

 

[Czechboy]

Fun facts.



Petr Nedved won silver with Canada at Olympics and is now Czech GM.

Peter Stastny played for Canada at Canada cup and then suited up with his brothers to get Slovakia into Olympics.

 

[pabst blue ribbon]

People do realize that countries like Belarus/Kazakhstan at this point have big enough domestic talent pools that they don't really need imports to play at the top level competitions. China wether you agree or not with the inclusion of them at this tournament just don't have the talent pool to ice a 25 man roster of exclusively domestic Chinese players. Anyone expecting them to not have a significant portion of their roster made up of imports was being unrealistic in the first place.

 

[Jacob]

People do realize that countries like Belarus/Kazakhstan at this point have big enough domestic talent pools that they don't really need imports to play at the top level competitions. China wether you agree or not with the inclusion of them at this tournament just don't have the talent pool to ice a 25 man roster of exclusively domestic Chinese players. Anyone expecting them to not have a significant portion of their roster made up of imports was being unrealistic in the first place.

I think if a country can’t find 25 domestic hockey players they just shouldn’t compete. No hard feelings but that should be a bare-minimum requirement.

 

[Pasha71]

I am blaming the IIHF, who should make the requirements for switching national teams harder.

"Switching" is the key word here. And switching is indeed tough. When Peter Stastny defected to Canada, he couldn't play for Team Canada in any IIHF competitions, since he'd already played for Czechoslovakia. He did manage to play for Canada in Canada Cup 1984, which I think was awesome (naturally, he couldn't have played for Team Czechoslovakia in 1984). Eventually, he did get to play for Slovakia when she became independent.

But if you haven't played for any national team in your life, why can't you play for a country of which you are a citizen? I understand it does look ridiculous that Jeremy Smith is playing for China, but... if he is a Chinese citizen, he is a Chinese citizen.

The only way IIHF can change the rules to prevent "hockey naturalizations" is require that a player should have been physically present in the country he/she represents for, say, five years. Now, that could possibly work.

 

[Albatros]

But if you haven't played for any national team in your life, why can't you play for a country of which you are a citizen? I understand it does look ridiculous that Jeremy Smith is playing for China, but... if he is a Chinese citizen, he is a Chinese citizen.

You mean this Jeremy Smith?

 

[Elvs]

"Switching" is the key word here. And switching is indeed tough. When Peter Stastny defected to Canada, he couldn't play for Team Canada in any IIHF competitions, since he'd already played for Czechoslovakia. He did manage to play for Canada in Canada Cup 1984, which I think was awesome (naturally, he couldn't have played for Team Czechoslovakia in 1984). Eventually, he did get to play for Slovakia when she became independent.

But if you haven't played for any national team in your life, why can't you play for a country of which you are a citizen? I understand it does look ridiculous that Jeremy Smith is playing for China, but... if he is a Chinese citizen, he is a Chinese citizen.

The only way IIHF can change the rules to prevent "hockey naturalizations" is require that a player should have been physically present in the country he/she represents for, say, five years. Now, that could possibly work.

Because they are citizens with the sole purpose of playing in big international tournaments, and nothing else.

Think about this for a second. In 2026, we might not see Draisaitl, Seider and Stutzle in the Olympics, because if Germany doesn't have them available for Olympic qualification, they can easily be beaten by the likes of Belarus or Kazakstan, which without their import players would be at Italy's level.

This tournament nearly saw Belarus instead of Slovakia, which (if not for the pandemic) would've featured a half roster consisting of NHL players. And that's the same Belarussian team which lost to Poland. Thank god for Poland stepping up.

 

[Pasha71]

You mean this Jeremy Smith?

Thanks for the info, I had no idea. So he played for Team USA in World Juniors 2008. I suppose IIHF is lenient enough in case of a large enough gap.

 

[Pasha71]

Because they are citizens with the sole purpose of playing in big international tournaments, and nothing else.

Think about this for a second. In 2026, we might not see Draisaitl, Seider and Stutzle in the Olympics, because if Germany doesn't have them available for Olympic qualification, they can easily be beaten by the likes of Belarus or Kazakstan, which without their import players would be at Italy's level.

This tournament nearly saw Belarus instead of Slovakia, which (if not for the pandemic) would've featured a half roster consisting of NHL players. And that's the same Belarussian team which lost to Poland. Thank god for Poland stepping up.

I do disagree about Belarus and Kazakhstan, they both played in Division I Group A in the last World Juniors, and Belarus even qualified for the Top Division. So their junior programs don't suck as much as one of Italy (who won Division II Group A and got promoted into Division I Group B).

Oh, and how about Kallie Humphries, who just won a bobsleigh gold medal for USA after winning many medals in Canada previously? She switched to USA because she had issues with Canadian bobsleigh federation. Is that legit? Do we need to give that medal back?

People immigrate for many reasons, including a better opportunity to practice their craft, whatever it might be. For athletes, that includes playing in the Olympics and other international competitions.

Like I said, the only thing IIHF can maybe do is institute some sort of physical presence limit: unless you've been living in a country for five years or so, you can't represent it internationally.

 

[Elvs]

I do disagree about Belarus and Kazakhstan, they both played in Division I Group A in the last World Juniors, and Belarus even qualified for the Top Division. So their junior programs don't suck as much as one of Italy (who won Division II Group A and got promoted into Division I Group B).

Oh, and how about Kallie Humphries, who just won a bobsleigh gold medal for USA after winning many medals in Canada previously? She switched to USA because she had issues with Canadian bobsleigh federation. Is that legit? Do we need to give that medal back?

People immigrate for many reasons, including a better opportunity to practice their craft, whatever it might be. For athletes, that includes playing in the Olympics and other international competitions.

Like I said, the only thing IIHF can maybe do is institute some sort of physical presence limit: unless you've been living in a country for five years or so, you can't represent it internationally.

Again, apples and oranges. I don't know who Kallie Humphries is, but it doesn't sound like anything similar to Geoff Platt playing for Belarus or Brandon Bochenski playing for Kazakstan. They are essentially bought in. They are hardly immigrants. They are season workers.

I'm well aware that Belarus and Kazakstan are doing well at the junior level. But unless they stop acquiring foreign players, several of these kids are going to get their dreams shattered of ever playing for their country in the Olympics, and for unfair reasons.

Sweden has one of the best female leagues in the world. There's plenty of foreign players here that could represent Sweden. But we don't go that route, because it's not fair to young girls in Sweden who grow up dreaming about representing our national team.

 

[Pasha71]

Again, apples and oranges. I don't know who Kallie Humphries is, but it doesn't sound like anything similar to Geoff Platt playing for Belarus or Brandon Bochenski playing for Kazakstan. They are essentially bought in. They are hardly immigrants. They are season workers.

I'm well aware that Belarus and Kazakstan are doing well at the junior level. But unless they stop acquiring foreign players, several of these kids are going to get their dreams shattered of ever playing for their country in the Olympics, and for unfair reasons.

Sweden has one of the best female leagues in the world. There's plenty of foreign players here that could represent Sweden. But we don't go that route, because it's not fair to young girls in Sweden who grow up dreaming about representing our national team.

How would you codify the new eligibility rules, then? Not just "it doesn't feel right", but something more specific and quantifiable.