GDT: Game 43: Avs @ Ducks | 8 PM MT | Ah, The Hell With It

[henchman21]

Coaching is key. I mean Bednar had no chance from the start basically with this roster and situation but a guy like Q would have never allowed this team to fall apart the way they did. Terrible roster or not.
He would atleast have gotten 10-15 extra points out of this group till now.

At the risk of starting a firestorm... Roy would have this team 10-15 points higher right now. After 43 games last year, the Avs had 45 points... this roster isn't that different. A great coach would probably be 20+ more.

 

[cgf]

Zadorov makes a lot of risky plays, but to say he doesn't make intelligent plays is silly. He comes up with some very creative & intelligent plays. Had he said Zads would never make the safe play that'd be one thing, but never making the intelligent play is a different story. Zads' still has plenty to learn, but his natural hockey IQ is higher than someone like Buff's.

 

[henchman21]

Zadorov makes a lot of risky plays, but to say he doesn't make intelligent plays is silly. He comes up with some very creative & intelligent plays. Had he said Zads would never make the safe play that'd be one thing, but never making the intelligent play is a different story. Zads' still has plenty to learn, but his natural hockey IQ is higher than someone like Buff's.

Not playing good situational hockey is a sign he doesn't think the game incredibly well. In the case of this goal, there was a simple, easy play that involved no risk. That was the play to make. He just needs to learn through these things. IMO he will be fine, but that was not a smart play.

 

[cgf]

Not playing good situational hockey is a sign he doesn't think the game incredibly well. In the case of this goal, there was a simple, easy play that involved no risk. That was the play to make. He just needs to learn through these things. IMO he will be fine, but that was not a smart play.

No argument from me with you on this. That was not the smart play and zads will have to learn to play it safe in crucial moments, but that's more a question of mentality than intelligence.

 

[Ivan13]

No argument from me with you on this. That was not the smart play and zads will have to learn to play it safe in crucial moments, but that's more a question of mentality than intelligence.

No, it's a sure fire sign of hockey IQ, he failed to read the play correctly and it isn't an isolated time he did something like that. He played a great game and then made a big blunder, he is and always will be a high event player.

 

[tigervixxxen]

At the risk of starting a firestorm... Roy would have this team 10-15 points higher right now. After 43 games last year, the Avs had 45 points... this roster isn't that different. A great coach would probably be 20+ more.

10-15 points higher is still not good. Breaking the cycle of mediocrity might be a long term blessing in disguise provided they don't make things worse with whatever it is they are going to do.

 

[JoemAvs]

At the risk of starting a firestorm... Roy would have this team 10-15 points higher right now. After 43 games last year, the Avs had 45 points... this roster isn't that different. A great coach would probably be 20+ more.

I give you 10 points maybe. 15 is too much.

Roy is a pretty good motivator so I doubt that the mental state of this team would be as bad under him as under Bednar right now. That alone is probably worth an extra 5-10 points.

I completely disagree with the roster though. Last years defense was terrible. Probably bottom 5 in the league. Right now we are missing the #1 and #4 of said defense while last years #2 has turned into a #7.

Bednar is to blame for the epic level of suck.

But IMO any non-top5 coach in this league would battle with Arizona for the last spot right now with EJ and Varly having the injury plagued season they are having...

 

[Freudian]

I actually nodded off for the 2-1 goal. I was awake when there were 4 minutes left and woke up with a minute to go. Game just dragged on so long.

 

[henchman21]

10-15 points higher is still not good. Breaking the cycle of mediocrity might be a long term blessing in disguise provided they don't make things worse with whatever it is they are going to do.

I never claimed it was good. It just isn't the clownshow we see now.

I give you 10 points maybe. 15 is too much.

Roy is a pretty good motivator so I doubt that the mental state of this team would be as bad under him as under Bednar right now. That alone is probably worth an extra 5-10 points.

I completely disagree with the roster though. Last years defense was terrible. Probably bottom 5 in the league. Right now we are missing the #1 and #4 of said defense while last years #2 has turned into a #7.

Bednar is to blame for the epic level of suck.

But IMO any non-top5 coach in this league would battle with Arizona for the last spot right now with EJ and Varly having the injury plagued season they are having...

So Holden isn't terrible?

Z is playing decently well this year, Rants is on the team, Colby would have been Grigo+ under Roy, Grigo would have been better, Beauch wouldn't be amazing but I think Roy would have gotten more out of him, Bigras would be in the NHL... I understand the depth has played like crap, I believe a lot of that has to do with Bednar more than the players.

This is all for nothing though... Roy wasn't going to coach this roster. The changes the wanted were not made, and he had no faith in what was still here.

FTR on this coaching bit... I really think there are only 5-6 coaches who can really elevate a team. After that, as long as the coaching is average, a team will perform about how their roster should. Bad coaching though... that can cause everything to fall apart.

On those 5-6 coaches, they can also afford to play the mindgames that Bednar does. Babcock is notoriously a terrible coach to play for, but he is so above most tactically that players will put up with it. If you are not above the rest of the league tactically, players will check out.

 

[InjuredChoker]

You and me seem to be the only Tippett supporters around here. A lot of people think he's an average, offensively-suffocating coach, but I find him to be an excellent x's and o's guy, his teams give unreal effort, and he really is a stud at developing solid D. Always found it weird he stuck around in Arizona with the ownership and relocation problems, felt he could have gotten a top gig. Still do.

i'm a tippett fan. i remember being hopeful that we'd get him back in the days (before roy and sakic came in) when there were rumors that he wouldn't want to extend his contract withthe coyotes.

I really think there are only 5-6 coaches who can really elevate a team. After that, as long as the coaching is average, a team will perform about how their roster should. Bad coaching though... that can cause everything to fall apart.

On those 5-6 coaches, they can also afford to play the mindgames that Bednar does. Babcock is notoriously a terrible coach to play for, but he is so above most tactically that players will put up with it. If you are not above the rest of the league tactically, players will check out.

i 100% agree with the first part; select few coaches, maybe about half a dozen as you said, can elevate roster to overperform (or is just perform the better word?) their capabilities. then there are few who will have the team performing below their capabilities. and the largest group, medicore/average coaches that are more or less interchangable. some get better results with rosters suited more for their style but mostly.

however, don't think babcock is a notoriously terrible coach for everyone. he loves his hard-working, defensively aware players that have size. i'm pretty sure he is terrible coach to play for if you are

- rookie. or younger player
- like to freelance, not stay within babcocks tight structure
- more offensive oriented (whether dman or forward)
- don't give full effort, especially when it comes to playing on the defensive side of the puck

the more of those 4 qualities you have, the more awful babcock is to play for if you don't change your ways.

 

[JoemAvs]

I never claimed it was good. It just isn't the clownshow we see now.



So Holden isn't terrible?

Z is playing decently well this year, Rants is on the team, Colby would have been Grigo+ under Roy, Grigo would have been better, Beauch wouldn't be amazing but I think Roy would have gotten more out of him, Bigras would be in the NHL... I understand the depth has played like crap, I believe a lot of that has to do with Bednar more than the players.

This is all for nothing though... Roy wasn't going to coach this roster. The changes the wanted were not made, and he had no faith in what was still here.

In comparison to Gelinas or Golobeuf or Beauch this season?

No. In comparison to that he is pretty good.

Zads is net neutral for me. He has atleast had as many bad plays as he has had good plays. Probably more bad plays. But that is okay considering the circumstances.

I think Bigras would have been up under Bednar as well if he hadn't got injured and if this season wouldn't have been toast after 25 games basically.


I agree on the last part. I am glad that Roy is gone. It sucks that we have to be that bad right now and I hope this franchise won't take longterm damage from it but in the longrun it might be better for us than another 3 or 4 years of 80-90 point seasons under Roy (which is still on the high side. Doubt he would have reached that with Picks in net and EJ out).

It also puts a spotlight on the many flaws this organisation has as a whole and on the things that have to change.

Sometimes things have to get worse before they can get better.

Avs were going nowhere under RoyKic over the last few seasons. Lets hope that this season will serve as a wake up call..

 

[henchman21]

IMO Tippett is the coach you want after you get most of your young players established (some D clawing in would be okay)... not the one you want breaking in all the young players. In the former situation, you are getting a coach who will elevate the team.

In comparison to Gelinas or Golobeuf or Beauch this season?

No. In comparison to that he is pretty good.

Zads is net neutral for me. He has atleast had as many bad plays as he has had good plays. Probably more bad plays. But that is okay considering the circumstances.

I think Bigras would have been up under Bednar as well if he hadn't got injured and if this season wouldn't have been toast after 25 games basically.


I agree on the last part. I am glad that Roy is gone. It sucks that we have to be that bad right now and I hope this franchise won't take longterm damage from it but in the longrun it might be better for us than another 3 or 4 years of 80-90 point seasons under Roy (which is still on the high side. Doubt he would have reached that with Picks in net and EJ out).

It also puts a spotlight on the many flaws this organisation has as a whole and on the things that have to change.

Sometimes things have to get worse before they can get better.

Avs were going nowhere under RoyKic over the last few seasons. Lets hope that this season will serve as a wake up call..

I'll stand firm on the changes that would have been made if Roy had his way would have made the Avs better now, and going forward. It is pointless to debate though as they are not happening now.

 

[Ceremony]

I would do a better job of coaching this team than Dave Tippett. Absolutely not.

 

[dahrougem2]

i'm a tippett fan. i remember being hopeful that we'd get him back in the days (before roy and sakic came in) when there were rumors that he wouldn't want to extend his contract withthe coyotes.



i 100% agree with the first part; select few coaches, maybe about half a dozen as you said, can elevate roster to overperform (or is just perform the better word?) their capabilities. then there are few who will have the team performing below their capabilities. and the largest group, medicore/average coaches that are more or less interchangable. some get better results with rosters suited more for their style but mostly.

however, don't think babcock is a notoriously terrible coach for everyone. he loves his hard-working, defensively aware players that have size. i'm pretty sure he is terrible coach to play for if you are

- rookie. or younger player
- like to freelance, not stay within babcocks tight structure
- more offensive oriented (whether dman or forward)
- don't give full effort, especially when it comes to playing on the defensive side of the puck

the more of those 4 qualities you have, the more awful babcock is to play for if you don't change your ways.

Wasn't there a rift between Babcock and the Red Wings' vets prior to him leaving?

 

[The Kingslayer]

Wasn't there a rift between Babcock and the Red Wings' vets prior to him leaving?

Didn't Zetterberg not like Babcock or something?

 

[InjuredChoker]

Wasn't there a rift between Babcock and the Red Wings' vets prior to him leaving?

well yeah but he had been there for a decade. and they still played hard and extremely well in the final year against tampa in playoffs.

wings had basically the same core there for the whole babcocks tenure, very little turnover. it would be more surprising if there wasn't any rifts with so long coach-player relationships.

i have had rifts with my bosses in less than a week.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Not having EJ is a big downgrade even if Wier and Goloubef are better than Guenin and Chuck.

 

[henchman21]

When EJ was out long-term the last time under Roy, the Avs didn't completely fall apart.

 

[Freudian]

When EJ was out long-term the last time under Roy, the Avs didn't completely fall apart.

Roy always had better teams than this. He had a 59 point Iginla. This Iginla would be lucky to get 30 points with heavy PP time. This Beachemin might be the worst defender in the league playing 20 minutes a game and it's not even close. He had a Mitchell that actually could be useful in a bottom role.

I don't think EJ getting injured is the main reason for what's happening. It might expose the problems a bit more but this team was solidly off the rails before and would have crashed either way. There is no way to win in the NHL with more than half the team being non- or marginal NHLers. Only thing that could save this is Vezina goaltending.

 

[JoemAvs]

When EJ was out long-term the last time under Roy, the Avs didn't completely fall apart.

Team was way better in 2015. Especially Varlagod...

.921 instead of .898


It is not impossible to compensate for the loss of your #1 D even on a bad D.

But it is pretty damn hard when the rest of the roster is one huge mess as well.

As Freudian said:

Roy always had better rosters than this one.

 

[Avs_19]

When EJ was out long-term the last time under Roy, the Avs didn't completely fall apart.

Last time he was out long-term was 14-15. So you're going back two years to when the Avs were a better team and Varly had a SV% of .921

 

[henchman21]

Roy always had better teams than this. He had a 59 point Iginla. This Iginla would be lucky to get 30 points with heavy PP time. This Beachemin might be the worst defender in the league playing 20 minutes a game and it's not even close. He had a Mitchell that actually could be useful in a bottom role.

I don't think EJ getting injured is the main reason for what's happening. It might expose the problems a bit more but this team was solidly off the rails before and would have crashed either way. There is no way to win in the NHL with more than half the team being non- or marginal NHLers. Only thing that could save this is Vezina goaltending.

I find it AWFULLY convenient that every vet just crashed and burned this year. It would be one thing if it was just Iggy and Beauch. Or Iggy, Beauch, and McLeod... but it isn't. It is/was Iggy, Beauch, McLeod, Mitchell, Soda, and Comeau. Every player 30 and over is playing worse under Bednar. Going past that... the only players not playing worse under Bednar are probably MacK, Duchene, and Z. Every other player on the roster is new, or playing worse.

Team was way better in 2015. Especially Varlagod...

.921 instead of .898


It is not impossible to compensate for the loss of your #1 D even on a bad D.

But it is pretty damn hard when the rest of the roster is one huge mess as well.

As Freudian said:

Roy always had better rosters than this one.

The 2014-15 had a top pairing of Holden-Stuart while EJ was gone. Either people are saying that those two players were not nearly as bad as people said, or Roy coached the hell out of that team. It can't go both ways where Roys sucks and those two sucked.

I'd say the 14-15 team's biggest difference was ROR. And he is probably an added 4-5 point player over the course of a season.

Last time he was out long-term was 14-15. So you're going back two years to when the Avs were a better team and Varly had a SV% of .921

I remember a debate earlier this season where I argued that Roy's system inflated goalie's save percentage... that is turning out to be true.

 

[MonsterMack]

To be fair Hench, of those vets, at least Beauch and Iginla burned out in the 2nd half of last year

 

[henchman21]

To be fair Hench, of those vets, at least Beauch and Iginla burned in the 2nd half of last year

As I said... it would be one thing if it was just those two. It isn't though... it is pretty much every player on the team.

 

[InjuredChoker]

avs are giving less shots from high-danger areas this year compared to last, they are actually quite a bit better than the league average (and vice versa when it comes to creating them). poor sv% this year is on goalies sucking.