God Bless Canada
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I find it ironic that in your list of players, you cite several players who are under-rated or even excellent defensively (Hossa, Sakic, St. Louis, Forsberg, Elias) or physical (Iginla, Bertuzzi, Doan). By the way, you left off Joe Thornton from your list.Ogopogo said:So, your case for defensive forwards being as valuable as offensive forwards is one player in the history of the Hart trophy finishing in the top 10 in voting based on his defensive play? That is hardly overwhelming evidence to support the notion that a defensive forward is as valuable as an offensive one. BTW, Peca also has 60 points that year - during a defensive era.
Yes, every team needs defensive players. Yes, they are valuable. But no, they are not as valuable as offensive players. A defensive forward has two defensemen and a goalie behind him to stop the opposing team.
Offensive players always receive more consideration for the Hart Trophy because they are more valuable to their team.
Would you honestly pick Jere Lehtinen or Mike Peca over :
Markus Naslund
Dany Heatley
Marian Hossa
Ilya Kovalchuk
Martin St. Louis
Vincent Lecavalier
Brad Richards
Sidney Crosby
Jarome Iginla
Joe Sakic
Peter Forsberg
Todd Bertuzzi
Alex Tanguay
Mats Sundin
Shane Doan
Rick Nash
Patrik Elias
Milan Hejduk
Nobody would. That, in combination with the Hart Trophy results over NHL history, tells us that offensive forwards are more valuable that defensive forwards.
Many times, probably most times, a player becomes great defensively because he is not a great scorer. It is out of necessity rather than choice because everyone knows that a great offensive player is more valuable than a great defensive player. GMs know it, fans know it and yes, the Hart trophy voters know it.
As was posted before, Gainey wasn't even the 3rd best player on his team, let alone 3rd best player ever.
He was a great player - probably about #150 or so, all time.
Most of the players you mentioned, I wouldn't take Peca ahead of them. Mike Peca circa 1999 or 2002 I would take ahead of Tanguay, Sundin, Nash, Crosby or Hejduk RIGHT NOW (certainly not Crosby or Nash in five years from now). But Peca right now? Not likely.
Just to prove, though, the value of a dominant defensive forward, pop in a video of the Sabres 1999 Cup run. The only time you really hear the names of Yashin, Allison or Sundin is in discussions of how these three dynamic offensive centres were categorically and emphatically shut down by Mike Peca.
Some players do become good checkers because they don't have the talent to be top six forwards. But the great defensive forwards have the anticipation, the hockey sense and the resolve that simply cannot be taught. Peca has that. Madden has that. McCauley has that. Lehtinen has that. Carbonneau, Tikannen, Otto and Gainey had that. It's not as simple as "I'm not an offensive player, so I'll be a checker." The great defensive forwards all had special, God-given gifts that enabled them to stand out.