[Friedman] Kraken fire head coach Dave Hakstol

gstommylee

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From game 1 in 23/24 to the puck drop for 24/25, we so far have 8 HC changes. In season moves from Edm, Stl, Ott, NYI, NJ, to end of season with Buf, SJ, and Sea changing HC after the season with Columbus pending a new GM and likely making a HC change there as well. And who knows if any HC get relieved based on PO performances.

So, likely to be 9 and possibly 10 HC changes. So, question is then what about the GMs. Columbus and Ottawa let their GMs during the season. Figure everyone else who let their HC go, has a target that they need to hit in the next year or two to keep their job. Be it making the PO or getting further in the PO.

So, for Francis and the Kraken, what is the expectations they need to achieve over the next 2 seasons? Otherwise, is it time for a GM change as well. All of these HC changes, can't all just be on the HC. GM plays a big role especially in a hard cap league with so many players have some form of trade protection.

What do people want francis to do rush things give up our good/better prospects and badly over pay FA's to the point it hurts the team more than it helps. It take a while to get things in place and i don't think we should be throwing away our future just for the sake of doing so. Having some great top 6 elite talent with no depth nor the prospect pool to really supported it isn't going to get us anywhere.

Look at the leafs, they have 4 guys taking up half the cap with not so great depth and isn't getting anywhere closer to the cup and yet the media has the nerves to point all the blame on marner, its not his fault the team is struggled and if he ends up going to another team, the leafs are not going to be any better than they are now.
 

StreetHawk

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What do people want francis to do rush things give up our good/better prospects and badly over pay FA's to the point it hurts the team more than it helps. It take a while to get things in place and i don't think we should be throwing away our future just for the sake of doing so. Having some great top 6 elite talent with no depth nor the prospect pool to really supported it isn't going to get us anywhere.

Look at the leafs, they have 4 guys taking up half the cap with not so great depth and isn't getting anywhere closer to the cup and yet the media has the nerves to point all the blame on marner, its not his fault the team is struggled and if he ends up going to another team, the leafs are not going to be any better than they are now.
I agree that you don't rush things. I'm just saying that GMs shouldn't have impunity if they hire the wrong HC or don't have the right expectations for their HC. If the HC and players are not in sync, easier to move off the HC. But, should consider whether you brought in the right kind of players if that's the case as well.

Could very well be that next HC main job is to develop some of the younger players. That's more important than making the PO. So, long as HC and GM are on the same page and that's the expectations. Something is just not right when only 5 HC in the NHL currently, have 3 full years with their current team.
 

Fistfullofbeer

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What do people want francis to do rush things give up our good/better prospects and badly over pay FA's to the point it hurts the team more than it helps. It take a while to get things in place and i don't think we should be throwing away our future just for the sake of doing so. Having some great top 6 elite talent with no depth nor the prospect pool to really supported it isn't going to get us anywhere.

Look at the leafs, they have 4 guys taking up half the cap with not so great depth and isn't getting anywhere closer to the cup and yet the media has the nerves to point all the blame on marner, its not his fault the team is struggled and if he ends up going to another team, the leafs are not going to be any better than they are now.
It doesn't matter what we want. It is more to do with ownership expectations.

I don't think ownership expects (or wants) Francis to mortgage the entire future away. But if you are spending to the cap, you want more than a team finishing bottom-10 in the league. If the intention is to solely depend on the draft to do that, load up on picks by moving assets you don't think are part of the future. Getting more middle-6 players is not going to help this team.

We can not be competitive today with the team and players you have so if Francis wants that to change, he will need to get out of his comfort zone and either throw money at FA's or trade for players which will cost some assets.
 

Scomerica

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What do people want francis to do rush things give up our good/better prospects and badly over pay FA's to the point it hurts the team more than it helps. It take a while to get things in place and i don't think we should be throwing away our future just for the sake of doing so. Having some great top 6 elite talent with no depth nor the prospect pool to really supported it isn't going to get us anywhere.

Look at the leafs, they have 4 guys taking up half the cap with not so great depth and isn't getting anywhere closer to the cup and yet the media has the nerves to point all the blame on marner, its not his fault the team is struggled and if he ends up going to another team, the leafs are not going to be any better than they are now.
I think the sentiment in Carolina was Francis loved accumulating prospects but seemed scared/risk averse to deal any of them at trade deadlines to balance it with quality starters to take the next steps. He did leave them with a full cupboard though

Is Francis on the hot seat next year if we don't make the play offs or would he likely get another year after this to see through whatever plan he has?
 

Irie

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Part of the reason the expansion draft went differently was that Francis was an open book before the expansion draft. I know for a fact that GMs knew who he was interested in—younger guys on their less expensive second contracts—and made their protection lists to protect those guys. They left guys on big contracts exposed knowing Francis was not going to take them. Francis telegraphed he wasn't taking older veterans, big contracts, or damaged goods. Furthermore he was going to continue to be cautious in free agency. Vegas has clearly had a much different approach.

At the same time, the rules for the expansion draft were the same. Every team was able to protect its young talent on their first contracts. So the spigot closest to "building through the draft" was shut off completely by rule. Francis wasn't responsible for that rule, but it is his core philosophy that you build the core of your team via the draft—by bringing in young kids early, doing your own development, and having the pieces come up together in the same systems through the organization.
I really don't think any of the GMs that exposed a big contract in the expansion draft were happy that Francis passed on taking those players.

Fletcher and Poile came out in the media complaining about that very thing.

I don't believe there is anything Francis could have telegraphed that would have changed other GMs strategies. No GM wanted to lose a good asset for nothing the way some teams did in the Vegas draft, everyone had learned from the mistakes of those unfortunate GMs and made moves accordingly.

Had Francis used misdirection and telegraphed that he was going to take high AAV vets, Those GMs would have happily still exposed the Voraceks, Johansen, and Johnsons of the league. Maybe a guy like Skinner would have refused to waive, and Seattle ends up with Anders Bjork or Rasmus Asplund instead of Borgen, (which would have been so much worse), but there are not many hypotheticals where Francis cleans up in that draft.

Go back and look at the exposed player lists. Those lists are a grim read. Two expansion drafts in four years really diluted what Seattle was going to have available to them.

Off the top of my head, Appleton over DeMelo was a big miss, but at the time it felt appropriate. What other picks did he blow now that we have perfect hindsight?
 

Irie

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Is Francis on the hot seat next year if we don't make the play offs or would he likely get another year after this to see through whatever plan he has?
I think it will depend on the team's performance. If the team ices a lot of young guys that show promise, I have to think Francis is safe, even if they miss the postseason. If the kids play like crap and his vets and whatever he adds this offseason look like a tire fire on the ice, I absolutely think he is replaced.
 
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StreetHawk

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SEA wasn't going to do as well as LV simply due to timing. When LV was announced and the ED rules came out there was a boatload of NMC around the NHL. Fast forward 4 years later, a lot of the players who had NMC their deals expired and new NMC deals signed after were either for guys who deserved one or their NMC would expire before the ED or not include ED protection.

And any remaining NMC for guys teams didn't want to use a protection spot on, they'd look to buy them out with little term remaining.

After 3 seasons, what's the plan? Not doing a LV and going after bigger names. If it's draft and develop, then that should be the priority for the next HC over PO. Turning Beniers around and getting Wright to be a productive regular NHLer.
 

majormajor

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What do people want francis to do rush things give up our good/better prospects and badly over pay FA's to the point it hurts the team more than it helps.

It's not just about whether we pile up or spend down our picks/prospects. There's also the matter of indentifying undervalued players. We've done well with Tolvanen and Bjorkstrand, but I think there's a lot more room to grow that way. Our FO doesn't seem to have much confidence in their pro scouting ability. They didn't add anyone in the last year who wasn't earmarked for the 4th line.
 
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Kat Predator

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I really don't think any of the GMs that exposed a big contract in the expansion draft were happy that Francis passed on taking those players.

Fletcher and Poile came out in the media complaining about that very thing.

I don't believe there is anything Francis could have telegraphed that would have changed other GMs strategies. No GM wanted to lose a good asset for nothing the way some teams did in the Vegas draft, everyone had learned from the mistakes of those unfortunate GMs and made moves accordingly.

Had Francis used misdirection and telegraphed that he was going to take high AAV vets, Those GMs would have happily still exposed the Voraceks, Johansen, and Johnsons of the league. Maybe a guy like Skinner would have refused to waive, and Seattle ends up with Anders Bjork or Rasmus Asplund instead of Borgen, (which would have been so much worse), but there are not many hypotheticals where Francis cleans up in that draft.

Go back and look at the exposed player lists. Those lists are a grim read. Two expansion drafts in four years really diluted what Seattle was going to have available to them.

Off the top of my head, Appleton over DeMelo was a big miss, but at the time it felt appropriate. What other picks did he blow now that we have perfect hindsight?
It's not a hypothetical. Off the top of my head, there was Mark Giordano as the lone exception taken who didn't fit the general mold of younger veteran on a team-friendly contract. Giordano was an older player with a cap hit of not quite $7M per year. He came in and was quickly made Captain. So he was taken and paid for his perceived leadership intangibles. And he didn't finish the first season and got traded away.

From interviews of other GMs, it was clear that they talked to Francis, felt him out, and used their protections on players he expressed interest in. There is nothing the slightest bit odd about that, in fact. NHL GMs are part of an exclusive club. They all talk. They also aren't going to give away the store to their other GM buddies.

IIRC, some posters here thought he should've taken Tarasenko. I'm not going to argue whether that was a mistake or a great move. However, Tarasenko would've been a name player, older, and at $7.5M per year cap hit. That would've been 50% more than the highest players not named Giordano. So the facts line up. Francis reportedly telegraphed he wasn't going to take risks, take big contracts, etc. and he did not.

There is no question that Vegas went first here. But they've also taken huge swings. Anyone that thinks their approach has been cautious isn't paying attention. Not everything they've done has worked out, but they went for it right out of the gate. They continue to throw money around, make moves, take on big contracts, etc. At their expansion draft, they worked out a deal to take contracts from Florida before the draft and that turned into catching lightning in a bottle. It's also not true that when Seattle came along all 30 teams in the expansion draft were completely in the clear with the cap, etc. and were out to get Francis. Francis wasn't going to trade assets like draft picks, closing that door.

The knock on Francis in Raleigh was always that he was cautious and not a big gambler. Slow and steady. I see nothing that suggests he's changed his spots in Seattle.
 
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majormajor

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It's not just about whether we pile up or spend down our picks/prospects. There's also the matter of indentifying undervalued players. We've done well with Tolvanen and Bjorkstrand, but I think there's a lot more room to grow that way. Our FO doesn't seem to have much confidence in their pro scouting ability. They didn't add anyone in the last year who wasn't earmarked for the 4th line.

Watching the Avs right now reminds me of a couple great examples of pro scouting - Devon Toews and Valeri Nichushkin. You could draft in the top ten for many years and maybe not come away with the value that those two players have, and the Avs didn't give up much (or in Nichushkin's case, anything) to get them. I feel like we often see win now clubs land players like that, Vegas and Florida have certainly also done it.
 

Irie

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I am not disagreeing that Francis is an overly conservative GM, or that his plan was to save cap and build through the draft instead of trying to go with overpriced decling vets at the expansion draft. I am disagreeing that he did anything that gave those GMs a game plan to expose high priced players that they would otherwise have wanted to keep. Everyone was prepared. Francis' actions were totally irrelevant to the exposed lists. GMs exposed exactly what they didn't want to protect.

All the high priced players exposed were guys that those GMs wanted off their books, or were guys that were not as valuable to their organization as the players they protected - basically exactly how things always shake out in protection lists during expansion drafts.

I think what occured in a few islolated instances is that a few teams approached Francis and asked him to take their 8M dollar buy-out candidates and offered up 2nd round picks to do so, and he refused, and those GMs then traded a player that would likely have been the most desirable expansion pick on their roster that they knew they couldn't protect.

Bottom line is that after the Vegas expansion, every team spent the next three years making sure as many of their core guys that they knew would stick around were UFA that offseason, and then waited till after the expansion draft to re-sign them.

The Vegas draft screwed the Kraken. It wasn't really anything Francis did that created all the bare cupboard exposure lists.

But seriously, look at the exposed list now 3 years later. He actually did pretty damn good considering what he had to work with.

Exposed Players by team

And for the record, Dunn >>> Tarasenko as an expansion pick with 20/20 hindsight ;)
 

RainyCityHockey

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Yeah, I think people stilll critisizing Francis for the expansion draft gladly leave out a couple of things to try and make their argument.

Back then we were in the flat cap era and teams wanted to get rid off their high prized, older guys on longterm deals.
Francis didn't bite(rightfully so) cause no one was willing to offer anything worth taking on those contracts.

The problem for Francis was that he didn't really give any indications and left the field for those other GM's to go and whine about it to reporters.
And those reporters could only write those informations, cause they had nothing from Francis.
Because of that you end up with a one sided narrative that paints a picture of a guy(Francis) that supposedly asked for crazy things to take on those contracts.

I mean, just look at James van Riemsdyk for example.
People made fun of us taking Max McCormick instead of JVR and his 2x $7M AAV contract saying he would've been a great pickup.

One year after that the Flyers tried to trade JVR, who now only had one year left on his contract and came of a 25 goal season, and ended up not doing that.
Why?
Because we were still in the flat cap era and teams willing and able to take on that contract, without sending money back, told the Flyers it would cost them a 1st round pick.

So overall I don't have too many problems with the expansion draft, which was boring as hell, but rather with how Francis acted after that.

Since then we've been doing an in between thing and it led to a roster full of good complimentary pieces that had a nice(unsustainable because of the shooting percentag) run last year but are just not talented enough to be able to expect the playoffs(or even more) every year.
 
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Fuhrious

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Someone posted a clip (possibly on the Main board) from a Brind’amour interview where he talks about how he was hired.

The vibe I got was that he didn’t particularly care for how Francis treated him?

Two things I did get…

1. Francis is turbo-loyal to his pals. BA specifically mentions asking for a shot in the AHL but being told no because Francis’ good friend Ulf Samuelsson was HC there.

2. Francis was not inclined to give the keys to a first-time HC, and it took Dundon buying the team and appointing B’A personally for it to happen.

Soooooooooo…Dean Evason then?
 
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majormajor

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1. Francis is turbo-loyal to his pals. BA specifically mentions asking for a shot in the AHL but being told no because Francis’ good friend Ulf Samuelsson was HC there.

Turbo-loyalty is not firing your friend when your other friend wants to take their job? Sounds normal to me.

2. Francis was not inclined to give the keys to a first-time HC, and it took Dundon buying the team and appointing him for it to happen.

Soooooooooo…Dean Evason then?

We could do worse. Evason had a great record with Minnesota.
 

sigma six

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I mean, just look at James van Riemsdyk for example.
People made fun of us taking Max McCormick instead of JVR and his 2x $7M AAV contract saying he would've been a great pickup.

It was career AHL'er Carsen Twarynski that we took from Philly, but your point stands. JVR wouldn't have moved the needle here, while being too damn expensive and it was smarter of Francis to keep the cap space.
 
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rsteen

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IIRC, some posters here thought he should've taken Tarasenko. I'm not going to argue whether that was a mistake or a great move. However, Tarasenko would've been a name player, older, and at $7.5M per year cap hit. That would've been 50% more than the highest players not named Giordano. So the facts line up. Francis reportedly telegraphed he wasn't going to take risks, take big contracts, etc. and he did not.
If he'd taken Tarasenko he couldn't have taken Dunn. Maybe he liked Dunn's upside more and the contract wasn't so much of a factor.
 

RainyCityHockey

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If he'd taken Tarasenko he couldn't have taken Dunn. Maybe he liked Dunn's upside more and the contract wasn't so much of a factor.

I think with Tarasenko it was the injuries/surgeries combined with the contract and Dunn being available.

It was pretty clear, early on, that the Kraken wouldn't have all those options Vegas had, in the expansion draft, and so he rather went with the younger guy and possible upside.

Before the expansion draft Tarasenko also had two season where he was either not looking like his former self or not playing at all thanks to those three shoulder surgeries on his shooting arm.
 

kihei

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If he'd taken Tarasenko he couldn't have taken Dunn. Maybe he liked Dunn's upside more and the contract wasn't so much of a factor.
I thought that was one of RF's smartest moves. Dunn had been developing nicely; I was surprised he was made available. He had way more upside than a declining Tarasenko.
 
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The Marquis

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Eberle denying the players gave an ultimatum. I don't buy it going by how checked out they seemed at the end

Well, I'd believe Eberle definitely wasn't one of those players since he re-signed before the deadline. Doesn't reek of a guy who hates the sitting head coach.

Where did you see that info on Eberle denying it?
 

Kat Predator

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I think with Tarasenko it was the injuries/surgeries combined with the contract and Dunn being available.

It was pretty clear, early on, that the Kraken wouldn't have all those options Vegas had, in the expansion draft, and so he rather went with the younger guy and possible upside.

Before the expansion draft Tarasenko also had two season where he was either not looking like his former self or not playing at all thanks to those three shoulder surgeries on his shooting arm.
There are no guarantees. Dunn had his own risks. And, without a doubt, in 20/20 hindsight Dunn was the better selection.

The thing is that if everyone in the fanbase knows Francis is very conservative in his approach, why would we swallow that the other GMs do NOT know that? They did know it and they left some guys on big contracts available and protected younger guys so as not to "lose them for nothing". An example? Matt Duchene was left unprotected. Is he worth $8M cap hit? No. Can he contribute in terms of offense? Yes. But the Predators protection list included: Kunin and Myers who were gone soon afterwards. It also had Jeannot, Ekholm, Carrier, and Fabbro who David Poile literally said Francis expressed interest in (age/contract). Half of those guys are gone and maybe all of them by next season.

So yeah, GMs had their chance to tune their protection lists, etc. to make things a bit harder on Francis than they did on Vegas. That's what they should've done. But it's unrealistic to think they didn't also factor in their knowledge of Francis and that they talked to him.
 

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