Proposal: Free agency edition Trade Rumours/Proposals [MOD - Stay on Topic] 5

[The Devilish Buffoon]

Stutzle would have to be like Anthony DeAngelo levels of alleged toxicity before it makes sense to trade him in 99 percent of situations.

Based on his production so far in the league, he projects to have a good chance at being a future top 5-10 scorer type. The drop this year was due to injuries.

If he is immature, it's easier to bring in veterans to mentor him and hope he grows out of it than it is to trade him and find another Stutzle.

With that said, people talking about Tage Thompson as the return aren't exactly suggesting we liquidate Stutzle. That's another star player coming back. Not saying I would do it, but it's not the same as dealing Stutzle for a package deal or even the kind of return Eichel got.

Tage Thompson has had one star level season, one bonafide 1st line season, and one borderline 1st line season by the age of 27, Stützle has matched that by age 22 and has a better 4th best season as well.

It's not giving him away for nothing, but it's not so different from the Zibanejad-Brassard dynamic.

I see Timmy playing a similar style to Mackinnon. Problem with Timmy is his hands aren't able to catch up to his brain whereas Mackinnons can. Not to mention the lack of physicality and size which should get better as he matures.

Trading Timmy would be as dumb as rehiring Dorion.

This is true currently but these exact same things were said about Mackinnon during his early-20s plateau leading into 2017-2018.

I don't think Stützle will be on Mackinnon's level but compare them at the same age and they had similar warts (although Mackinnon was definitely stronger).

 

[LuckyPierre]

Your Staios quote doesnt suggest anything you are insinuating.

You asked me to show my work when I mentioned that 'Timmy has been singled out by Steve Staios as lacking maturity.'

Steve Staios referenced Tim's maturity level multiple times, indicating the organization needed to support him and help expedite his development in that area. It's not really up for further discussion - Staios knows he lacks maturity and made it a point to address it at season's end.

And we all know it by watching him game in, game out. It's really not a controversial take in and of itself - check the GDTs if you want to and there will be frequent posts about it as the year went on. The Meths and Bobbys keyed in on it often when on air. Tim pouted on the record when his loser coach was canned. He had sullen body language often when facing adversity this year, and often showed up refs with gestures of disbelief or through yapping at non calls.

Is suggesting a trade the controversial part of what I brought forward? For sure. I enjoy watching Tim play, and could see scenarios where he becomes more stoic, leads by example, and where the concept of responsible, team oriented play clicks with him. Am I saying he must be shipped out? Not at all.

What I am saying, though, is that the type of play that is conducive to playoff advancement and success is a far cry from the play style I see out of our number one centre with now four years under his belt. In almost every way. He does need to change a lot about him for me to be convinced that apart from exciting play, he can also lead this organization to success. Those are discrete outcomes, and he certainly has the excitement part nailed down, I'll give him that. But talking composure level and attention to team play, I am beginning to become concerned. I don't have those same concerns about Jake Sanderson, as he's the antithesis of Timmy in almost every way. It's not to be dismissed as a universal struggle all young players go through.

And hey, if it means tossing out a scenario where a return for Timmy is explored, I don't think a package around Tage Thompson is such a travesty. There's a smaller age gap than the Zib-Brass deal, and Tage has far fewer miles on him than Brass did, not to mention he's an offensive superstar in this league with an imposing frame.

 

[Loach]

Do not feed the animal.

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

If we win the draft lottery do you think Vancouver would give us Silovs for the 1st?

 

[LuckyPierre]

I'm very curious what about Thompson's game makes you think he'd do well in the playoffs. He's 6'6 but he's not some player that plays a gritty game or makes his bacon in the high traffic areas. He tends to use his unbelievable release to score from the perimeter more than he crashes the net. And he doesn't exactly play the game with tonnes of pace.

I see Stützle being able to adapt his game to postseason play much more easily than Thompson could. Not in small part because at age 20-21 Tim was scoring 90 points in the NHL while at the same age Thompson couldn't figure out how to stick with an NHL team.

Thompson is really nice player but he's not worth Tim Stützle.

Let’s hope you’re right. Stutzle’s pace and ingenuity could break playoff games wide open.

To answer your question, I think Tage’s shooting mentality, and his ability to park in front and score garbage goals would bode well for us in the playoffs.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

If we win the draft lottery do you think Vancouver would give us Silovs for the 1st?

Why would you give up Celebrini for Silov?

 

[Ice-Tray]

Let’s hope you’re right. Stutzle’s pace and ingenuity could break playoff games wide open.

To answer your question, I think Tage’s shooting mentality, and his ability to park in front and score garbage goals would bode well for us in the playoffs.

We already have a premier forward to do that.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

We already have a premier forward to do that.

Not to mention that isn't really Thompson's game. he uses his shot and his reach to score from the perimeter or from the goal line/ weak post. I don't find he's that much of a presence in front of the net.

 

[bert]

You asked me to show my work when I mentioned that 'Timmy has been singled out by Steve Staios as lacking maturity.'

Steve Staios referenced Tim's maturity level multiple times, indicating the organization needed to support him and help expedite his development in that area. It's not really up for further discussion - Staios knows he lacks maturity and made it a point to address it at season's end.

And we all know it by watching him game in, game out. It's really not a controversial take in and of itself - check the GDTs if you want to and there will be frequent posts about it as the year went on. The Meths and Bobbys keyed in on it often when on air. Tim pouted on the record when his loser coach was canned. He had sullen body language often when facing adversity this year, and often showed up refs with gestures of disbelief or through yapping at non calls.

Is suggesting a trade the controversial part of what I brought forward? For sure. I enjoy watching Tim play, and could see scenarios where he becomes more stoic, leads by example, and where the concept of responsible, team oriented play clicks with him. Am I saying he must be shipped out? Not at all.

What I am saying, though, is that the type of play that is conducive to playoff advancement and success is a far cry from the play style I see out of our number one centre with now four years under his belt. In almost every way. He does need to change a lot about him for me to be convinced that apart from exciting play, he can also lead this organization to success. Those are discrete outcomes, and he certainly has the excitement part nailed down, I'll give him that. But talking composure level and attention to team play, I am beginning to become concerned. I don't have those same concerns about Jake Sanderson, as he's the antithesis of Timmy in almost every way. It's not to be dismissed as a universal struggle all young players go through.

And hey, if it means tossing out a scenario where a return for Timmy is explored, I don't think a package around Tage Thompson is such a travesty. There's a smaller age gap than the Zib-Brass deal, and Tage has far fewer miles on him than Brass did, not to mention he's an offensive superstar in this league with an imposing frame.

Zibanejad for Brassard is one of the worst trades in franchise history and that's your bench mark. Think about that for a second.

What you said was that Staios suggested was that Stutzle has a massive maturity problem and that it's bad for the culture. So that's a reason to trade him. Which isn't what happened at all. You're either not paying attention to the message or hearing what you want to. Ever since Staios has taken over he has talked about sustainable success. Do you think trading a top 3 point producer from. 18 to 21 in the cap era when the player is 22 years old falls in line with that plan. He's preaching patience and you're suggesting the opposite. Stutzle is TWENTY TWO. Yet you're expecting a fully developed player. Most guys from his draft year just finished their first or 2nd year pro some just graduated from college... Kleven is the same age and was an AHL rookie.

Not to mention that isn't really Thompson's game. he uses his shot and his reach to score from the perimeter or from the goal line/ weak post. I don't find he's that much of a presence in front of the net.

He's not a net front presence at all.

 

[Silky Johnson]

I guess ... I would not put them on the same tier.. Mackinnon is bigger, faster, more powerful, more explosive... He is right there near the top of all NHL players.

McKinnon is currently listed as 6' 200lbs to Stützle's 6' 197lbs.

Stützle is still gaining his man muscle and will become more powerful in coming years.

The Stützle we saw at the World Juniors was a powerful, high pace, high intensity performer against his peer group on a huge stage. That gives me hope for his playoff potential.

He clearly has another gear or two but needs to put it all together. He and MacKinnon are not bad comparables at all - and he is well ahead of Mac at the same points in their careers. They are also similar in that you could really see the potencial for so much more early in their careers.

Will he be able to take the couple big steps Mac did? Maybe. He certainly has the tools and potential.

You do not trade this type of player when you have them locked up to a team friendly deal, especially for Tage Thompson... Power and Thompson, well then I'd have to think about it.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

McKinnon is currently listed as 6' 200lbs to Stützle's 6' 197lbs.

Stützle is still gaining his man muscle and will become more powerful in coming years.

The Stützle we saw at the World Juniors was a powerful, high pace, high intensity performer against his peer group on a huge stage. That gives me hope for his playoff potential.

He clearly has another gear or two but needs to put it all together. He and MacKinnon are not bad comparables at all - and he is well ahead of Mac at the same points in their careers. They are also similar in that you could really see the potencial for so much more early in their careers.

Will he be able to take the couple big steps Mac did? Maybe. He certainly has the tools and potential.

You do not trade this type of player when you have them locked up to a team friendly deal, especially for Tage Thompson... Power and Thompson, well then I'd have to think about it.

Never looked up the height weight. so no so much bigger... He looks bigger to me. I don't think I am being overly critical of Stutzle what so ever...

Now ... who you picking for the Hart this year? MacKinnon or McDavid .. or is it Kucherov.

Maybe someday it will be Stutzle vying for it.

Players develop at different rates for a variety of reasons and they peak at different levels for a variety of reasons.

 

[Bileur]

Never looked up the height weight. so no so much bigger... He looks bigger to me. I don't think I am being overly critical of Stutzle what so ever...

Now ... who you picking for the Hart this year? MacKinnon or McDavid .. or is it Kucherov.

Maybe someday it will be Stutzle vying for it.

Players develop at different rates for a variety of reasons and they peak at different levels for a variety of reasons.

It’s not really fair to compare a finished, peak Mackinnon to a 22 year old Timmy.

In his D+4 Mackinnon had 53 points. I don’t think anyone was projecting Hart trophies for him either.

 

[Silky Johnson]

Never looked up the height weight. so no so much bigger... He looks bigger to me. I don't think I am being overly critical of Stutzle what so ever...

Now ... who you picking for the Hart this year? MacKinnon or McDavid .. or is it Kucherov.

Maybe someday it will be Stutzle vying for it.

Players develop at different rates for a variety of reasons and they peak at different levels for a variety of reasons.

You don't see Stützle having alot more runway?

Honestly I do. I see a player who is putting up ppg+ while looking like he has still more to figure out.

Stützle looks to have a great commitment to fitness and will only get more strong and powerful as he hits his mid-twenties.

McKinnon may indeed win the Hart this year, and it would be deserved. I also guarantee you that in his D+4 postseason people were questioning his development and level of play. They would have a better argument at that time then anyone would have against Stützle now.

Only time will tell.

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

It’s not really fair to compare a finished, peak Mackinnon to a 22 year old Timmy.

In his D+4 Mackinnon had 53 points. I don’t think anyone was projecting Hart trophies for him either.

I watched a lot of MacKinnon as a rookie. He reminds me of Stutzle just based on how explosive of a gamebreaker he was, even at 18. 60+ points as an 18 year old with how league scoring was at the time put him into very elite territory. Granted, he had the perfect setup on Colorado where they had Duchene, Stastny, and O'Reilly to help shelter him and take difficult matchups.

While he did have an extended sophomore slump, you have to keep in mind that 53 points in 16-17 isn't the same thing as 53 points now. He was first in scoring on a very bad Colorado team, in addition he finished tied for top 72 in scoring.

At that time in the league, a 50 points was very solid top 6 production, and 60 or more was something close to a star, with most of the superstars having 70-90 points. Stutzle at 70 points this season is still ahead of where MacKinnon was, but not by much.

The only thing I will say is that development isn't always linear. So you can argue that Stutzle projects to be better than x or y older player because he has done things that only players like MacKinnon have done, but I don't think you can argue that x or y player isn't more valuable than Stutzle because it took x or y player an extra 5 years to get to superstar or franchise status. While I wouldn't trade Stutzle for Tage Thompson, I don't think Tage Thompson's developmental timeline matters much.

I would not trade Stutzle because there is a possibility, while not massive, that he could be a franchise player offensively. He's someone who has potential to be a top 5 league scorer on a good team if he puts it all together. That's not easy to come by. He would have to be an absolute menace in the room and completely untenable for it to make sense, or the Senators would have to be offered a player they absolutely could not say no to. Of which, there are probably only a few in the league.

If they trade Stutzle, I will assume there is something really bad in terms of him contributing to the country club atmosphere, because I can't imagine any exec would be stupid enough to trade him without it being absolutely necessary.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Stutzle trade talk needs to end here.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

You don't see Stützle having alot more runway?

Honestly I do. I see a player who is putting up ppg+ while looking like he has still more to figure out.

Stützle looks to have a great commitment to fitness and will only get more strong and powerful as he hits his mid-twenties.

McKinnon may indeed win the Hart this year, and it would be deserved. I also guarantee you that in his D+4 postseason people were questioning his development and level of play. They would have a better argument at that time then anyone would have against Stützle now.

Only time will tell.

Younger players have more runway. You have to go back to where this started... I said no to the thompson trade notion because of Stutzle's runway and potential. I commented that I did not think MacKinnon is a good comparable due to a number of factors... then you came in with the SIZE thing.

I maintain what I said so far. Nothing has been critical of Stutzle. May the hockey gods treat him well.

Having an opinion on comparables is not really worth debating... You think x ., I think y. I am happy to leave it there and not try to compare D+n seasons for reasons I have already offered an explanation on. If you want to say Stutzle will be better because he was better earlier... have at it. I think we are done.

I was not the one to bring a MacKinnon comparison into the conversation. If some see Stutzle when they watch MacKinnon .. its an opinion I do not share.

wt flying f

 

[Loach]

Stutzle trade talk needs to end here.

1 dumbass made a dumbass comment and now everybody blah blah blah. Just don't feed the dumbass. Easy.

 

[Ice-Tray]

We’re trading Stu???

 

[Micklebot]

I watched a lot of MacKinnon as a rookie. He reminds me of Stutzle just based on how explosive of a gamebreaker he was, even at 18. 60+ points as an 18 year old with how league scoring was at the time put him into very elite territory. Granted, he had the perfect setup on Colorado where they had Duchene, Stastny, and O'Reilly to help shelter him and take difficult matchups.

While he did have an extended sophomore slump, you have to keep in mind that 53 points in 16-17 isn't the same thing as 53 points now. He was first in scoring on a very bad Colorado team, in addition he finished tied for top 72 in scoring.

At that time in the league, a 50 points was very solid top 6 production, and 60 or more was something close to a star, with most of the superstars having 70-90 points. Stutzle at 70 points this season is still ahead of where MacKinnon was, but not by much.

The only thing I will say is that development isn't always linear. So you can argue that Stutzle projects to be better than x or y older player because he has done things that only players like MacKinnon have done, but I don't think you can argue that x or y player isn't more valuable than Stutzle because it took x or y player an extra 5 years to get to superstar or franchise status. While I wouldn't trade Stutzle for Tage Thompson, I don't think Tage Thompson's developmental timeline matters much.

I would not trade Stutzle because there is a possibility, while not massive, that he could be a franchise player offensively. He's someone who has potential to be a top 5 league scorer on a good team if he puts it all together. That's not easy to come by. He would have to be an absolute menace in the room and completely untenable for it to make sense, or the Senators would have to be offered a player they absolutely could not say no to. Of which, there are probably only a few in the league.

If they trade Stutzle, I will assume there is something really bad in terms of him contributing to the country club atmosphere, because I can't imagine any exec would be stupid enough to trade him without it being absolutely necessary.

So, Hockey reference does do era adjusted stats,

MacKinnon in 16/17 was 59 pts era adjusted
Stützle in 23/24 was 68 pts era adjusted

Now, it has been revealed Stü was playing through a bad wrist all year which appears to explain the big drop off in goals, 22/23 era adjusted, Stu was 85 pts.

MacKinnon in 2017/18 was 99 pts, and have been continuing that trend since, with this year at a wild 138. I think Stü getting to ~100 pts era adjusted is realistic, 138 though, that would be special.

Of note, MacKinnon apparently was fighting some confidence issues before his breakout, not sure what changed to result in his break out but it did coincide with the Duchene trade, so maybe he just thrived with increased responsibility.

 

[Adele Dazeem]

We’re trading Stu???

People are bored.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

Stutzle trade talk needs to end here.

Trading Stu would be as stupid as signing Galchenyuk and slotting him as your top 2 centre

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

So, Hockey reference does do era adjusted stats,

MacKinnon in 16/17 was 59 pts era adjusted
Stützle in 23/24 was 68 pts era adjusted

Now, it has been revealed Stü was playing through a bad wrist all year which appears to explain the big drop off in goals, 22/23 era adjusted, Stu was 85 pts.

MacKinnon in 2017/18 was 99 pts, and have been continuing that trend since, with this year at a wild 138. I think Stü getting to ~100 pts era adjusted is realistic, 138 though, that would be special.

Of note, MacKinnon apparently was fighting some confidence issues before his breakout, not sure what changed to result in his break out but it did coincide with the Duchene trade, so maybe he just thrived with increased responsibility.

Stastny left after his rookie year, and the Ryan O'Reilly the year after that, which might have been a big part of it.

I would assume it made it so he ended up getting a lot more of the top matchups. He went from an ideal situation for his development to one that was a lot more difficult.

At the end of the day, 13-14 was a special year for Colorado where a lot went right for them. With Roy coming in they played with piss and vinegar. It's a shame they got eliminated in the first round.

Trading Stu would be as stupid as signing Galchenyuk and slotting him as your top 2 centre

It's not fair to make that comment to Burrow. You can't talk about his son that way.

 

[Icelevel]

We’re trading Stu???

No.
Of course not.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

Zibanejad for Brassard is one of the worst trades in franchise history and that's your bench mark. Think about that for a second.

What you said was that Staios suggested was that Stutzle has a massive maturity problem and that it's bad for the culture. So that's a reason to trade him. Which isn't what happened at all. You're either not paying attention to the message or hearing what you want to. Ever since Staios has taken over he has talked about sustainable success. Do you think trading a top 3 point producer from. 18 to 21 in the cap era when the player is 22 years old falls in line with that plan. He's preaching patience and you're suggesting the opposite. Stutzle is TWENTY TWO. Yet you're expecting a fully developed player. Most guys from his draft year just finished their first or 2nd year pro some just graduated from college... Kleven is the same age and was an AHL rookie.


He's not a net front presence at all.

I mean I was trying to not sound too harsh. Lol.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Trading Stu would be as stupid as signing Galchenyuk and slotting him as your top 2 centre

stupidest was signing galchenyuk and playing him fourth line wing