Line Combos: Fix our forward lines until Hopkins gets back

guymez

The Seldom Seen Kid
Mar 3, 2004
33,541
13,433
Your entire argument of Yak struggling defensively is based on your anecdotal "I watched the games" evidence. Anyone who watched the games also saw Hall, Eberle, Hemsky, Jones and Smyth doing the exact same things. Are you applying a double standard or are those mistakes given less weight because of the player's "experience"?

So you are suggesting that anyone who watched the games could see that Hemsky, Hall, Eberle, Jones and Symth were the equivalent to Yakupov defensively?

Then in the next breath you are stating that because I saw things much differently that I must therefore have a double standard?


You are pretty good at attempting strawman arguments but if you honestly think that Yak is just as good (or bad) defensively as any other Oiler forward it really does make me question just how much you know about hockey.


The Player A/Player B part was obviously an oversimplified example to show a point. Your argument was more experience always equals better defensive ability. It wasn't players always improve after their rookie season. There's countless numbers of players who have plateaued or regressed defensively as they've gained NHL experience. I should hope you can understand that without needing a list of examples.

Not improving defensively (with experience) for a legit NHL player is the rare exception not the rule. Experience is absolutely essential to improving as a hockey player. So your claim that not all do is irrelevant because it is an extreme outlier.

Honestly its actually a joke that you are choosing to debate that point.
 

McDNicks17

Moderator
Jul 1, 2010
41,751
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Ontario
So you are suggesting that anyone who watched the games could see that Hemsky, Hall, Eberle, Jones and Symth were the equivalent to Yakupov defensively?

Then in the next breath you are stating that because I saw things much differently that I must therefore have a double standard?

You are pretty good at attempting strawman arguments but if you honestly think that Yak is just as good (or bad) defensively as any other Oiler forward it really does make me question just how much you know about hockey.

No, I'm saying anyone could see those players make the same mistakes Yak did. The mistakes that you're using to condemn Yak's defensive ability. Indirectly, you're saying Yak is equal to the others unless, like I said, you're applying some kind of double standard.

Not improving defensively (with experience) for a legit NHL player is the rare exception not the rule. Experience is absolutely essential to improving as a hockey player. So your claim that not all do is irrelevant because it is an extreme outlier.

Honestly its actually a joke that you are choosing to debate that point.

I'd like to see an example of a player who has consistently improved defensively every single season that they've been in the league. Most(but not all) players make a big jump after their rookie season, then plateau more or less.

Way back, you said "Every player I mentioned above is better defensively because of 1 reason...experience."

You honestly think it's that simple? More experience = better defensively? What if you compared RNH to those same players? Are Hemsky and Smyth better defensively than him? Why not, they have more experience, right?

You were trying to make the point earlier that every player improves after their rookie season. So, won't Yak improve? What if he improves as drastically as Hall did? There's not a whole lot of difference between a 65 and 48 game rookie season or between the players themselves. Would you agree that most players have their most drastic improvement after their rookie season(defensively, I'm not talking sophomore slumps offensively)? So, why based on last season, do you think Yak will be "much worse" than the other wingers this coming season when he'll probably improve more in comparison to the other 5 wingers?
 

skorf

Registered User
Jun 30, 2013
325
4
Sure Yak's defense isn't where it should be, but most of our forwards could use some improvements there.

I don't see any reason as to why Yakupov shouldn't get a chance at 1st line minutes his second year... guys like Hall and Eberle did in their first and second years and neither were miles ahead of Yakupov.

As long as he continues to improve and puts in the effort... I don't see why he shouldn't be given first line minutes if he earns them.

If we need solid defensive forwards on our first line... who are we left with? Nuge/Gordon/Hemsky?
 

ManofSteel55

Registered User
Aug 15, 2013
32,481
12,718
Sylvan Lake, Alberta
Again, a point that doesn't support your argument of experience always equalling better defensive ability...


I'll try to make it easier for you and repeat my stance for the third or fourth time...no one in the top6 or top9(outside of RNH and Gordon) are noticeably better or worse than Yak defensively.

You keep asking me to "name blah blah blah worse than Yak" when that completely contradicts the point I've been trying to make. I've said it three or four times now...no one is noticeably worse than Yak defensively in the top6 or top9. But at the same time, no one is noticeably better(excluding RNH and Gordon).

I hope five times the charm and you'll understand what I'm saying and argue my actual point rather than argue against your own incorrect interpretation of it.


As for substance, if Yak "struggled mighty defensively", as you said, you should be able to come up with something other than "I watched the games" to back that up.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but with defensive play, watching the player is the only real way to tell. If you're asking for more enlightenment (poor positionally, lots of turnovers, etc) then all of those can really only be seen when you watch the games.
 
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guymez

The Seldom Seen Kid
Mar 3, 2004
33,541
13,433
No, I'm saying anyone could see those players make the same mistakes Yak did. The mistakes that you're using to condemn Yak's defensive ability. Indirectly, you're saying Yak is equal to the others unless, like I said, you're applying some kind of double standard.

Well...you would be wrong. I am speaking specifically about consistency and not about isolated incidents. There is a difference between the two.

I'd like to see an example of a player who has consistently improved defensively every single season that they've been in the league. Most(but not all) players make a big jump after their rookie season, then plateau more or less.



I never said anything about consistent improvement. I simply stressed the importance of experience and that it is necessary for a player to develop. You disagree with that which is difficult to comprehend but it is what it is.


Way back, you said "Every player I mentioned above is better defensively because of 1 reason...experience."

You honestly think it's that simple? More experience = better defensively? What if you compared RNH to those same players? Are Hemsky and Smyth better defensively than him? Why not, they have more experience, right?

Wrong again. I never said it was that simple. What I did say that it was that critical. See the difference there?
So yes...I honestly think that without experience a player will not improve.

Crazy eh?

Please do tell me how a player will improve without experience?

You were trying to make the point earlier that every player improves after their rookie season. So, won't Yak improve? What if he improves as drastically as Hall did? There's not a whole lot of difference between a 65 and 48 game rookie season or between the players themselves. Would you agree that most players have their most drastic improvement after their rookie season(defensively, I'm not talking sophomore slumps offensively)? So, why based on last season, do you think Yak will be "much worse" than the other wingers this coming season when he'll probably improve more in comparison to the other 5 wingers?

The point I was really trying to make was that very few if any players do not improve defensively after their rookie season. They also generally improve with 'experience' because the defensive aspects of the game take time to learn. As a general rule experienced players are better defensively. You can choose not to believe that if you want but there is plenty of evidence to support it.

So despite what I saw with Yak and his terrible defensive play of course he will eventually improve over time. He will not improve over time without experience though because playing time is necessary to improve in any facet of the game. His poor defensive play was also against weaker competition so in order for him to improve he would need to show me that he can improve defensively against the same competition before I give him tougher assignments.

Despite what you believe there is no evidence to suggest that Yak is somehow going to magically figure out the defensive game (without any additional experience) and that he can all of a sudden be expected to play that game against the best in the world when he couldn't handle the other teams 3rd and 4th best players just last season.

That is the definition of foolish and decisions like that would help keep this team from improving.

This has nothing to do with double standards or not liking a player. That is absolute nonsense.

What it does have to do with is common sense.
 
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McDNicks17

Moderator
Jul 1, 2010
41,751
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Ontario
I think I see where the root of our disagreement is coming from.

I thought beyond the first 10-15 games he was fairly even with the other wingers. You thought the gap was much larger. We'll have to agree to disagree on that since both are fairly subjective and basically impossible to quantify.

The next part is the experience part. I think a player can make huge strides during a rookie season and their first offseason. And I think you're saying it comes more from ice-time. My thinking is guys like Hall and Gagner made drastic improvements in decision making and defensive play right out of the gate in their sophomore seasons. I assume a lot of work with video, coaching, etc. happens during that first offseason which causes that. I understand ice-time is essential too, but I think a player can make a huge stride coming into their sophomore season rather than a slower gradual curve over the course of that season. Again, we should probably agree to disagree here too seeing that there's no way to tell how Yakupov improves.

In the end, I think we can probably call it a day since the main two factors here are more or less entirely subjective and there's no way for either of us to be right or wrong.
 

Draiskull

Registered User
Oct 26, 2005
23,352
2,203
Based on the lineups today and some chemistry shown yesterday:

Perron-Gagner-Eberle
Joensuu-Hall-Hemsky
Omark-Lander-Yakupov
Smyth/Eager-Gordon-Jones
 

shizan

Registered User
May 1, 2010
184
0
I don't believe it. lol Of course hes going to say that after mact said nov 1. Hes ready to go Oct 1st. :)

No way he'll play till somewhere really close to Nov. 1 now. If he came back early then got hurt everyone will say why did they rush him. As for the line up, I would leave Hall on the wing. He just developed into one of the best LW in the world, why make him switch? From what I've seen so far I think opening day lineup will look something like this...
Hemsky - Hall - Eberle
Perron - Gagner - Yakupov
Smyth - Gordon - Jones
Joensuu - Lander - Brown
 

Trafalgar Sadge Law

Registered User
Nov 8, 2007
11,483
6,909
Based solely off play from last night, this would be the lineup:

Perron-Gagner-Yakupov
Eberle-Hall-Hemsky
Joensuu-Gordon-Jones
Smyth-Lander-Platzer

Smid-Petry
Ference-J Schultz
Marincin-Davidson

Dubnyk
LaBarbera

Perron completely controlled the game in Calgary when he was on the ice, he was drwaing multiple defenders, next to impossible to knock off the puck, and generated scoring chance after scoring chance. Yakupov was equally dominant in the Edmonton game. The defensive zone game is a work in progress, but past that, he just zoomed past opposing defenders, forced them to back off whenever he had the puck on his stick, made a number of quality passes, and the shot actually seemed somehow better than before. They'll work very well with Gagner, who needs players to create space for him so he can do what he wants with the puck.

Hall/Eberle is a no brainer, Hall was solid on the dot and defensively, but made a few mistakes, although that's to be expected shaking off rust while simultaneously adjusting to a new position. Eberle should be able to transition to LW because that's where he sets up on the PP anyway and allows him to unleash that wicked backhand more, Hemsky is there because no other player has the speed/skill to keep up with these 5. I'd trade him as soon as RNH gets back though because he just isn't the type of player who can play a bottom 6 game.

I really liked what I saw from Joensuu/Gordon/Jones. All 3 had better puck skills than expected (well I already knew Jones was pretty good but you get the point), and all 3 competed like their lives were on the line. I can see them becoming a strong energy line who can annoy opposing top 6 forwards while each putting up 20-30 points. Lander was far more physical than expected, Smyth is still slow, but actually surprised me by working to draw penalties in the offensive zone instead of taking them. Platzer obviously has 0 shot of making the team, but this guy always seems to know where to be and when to be there, the fact that he's picked up goals off easy opportunities 3 times now is no coincidence. Hamilton was clearly over his head with Gagner/Eberle, hopefully he'll add some toughness to the bottom 6.

Smid/Petry is tried and true. Ference was a rock in his own end, and was much more aggressive in the offensive zone than I expected. He knew when to pinch in and help is forwards, but always got right back into position to defend. Nurse looked solid alongside Ference but I'd rather not rush him, J Schultz skated/passed very well and his defensive deficiencies can be made up for by Ference, who also doesn't seem like he'll hold Schultz back offensively. Our bottom pairing dmen all stunk it up. Marincin is a smooth skater who made quick, smart decisions with the puck, and Davidson was solid positionally. However, in a perfect world both go back to OKC. Hopefully N Schultz bounces back and Belov impresses, because Garbagekov and Larsen were both Ryan Whitney out there: couldn't do anthing except stretch pass.

Dubnyk was Dubnyk, but LaBarbera was much better than I expected. His rebound control was outstanding and made a few key stops early on when Calgary was swarming the Oilers zone. In other news, Olivier Roy sucks.
 
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Mr Sakich

Registered User
Mar 8, 2002
9,645
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based on being at the calgary game, we may hve a short term option ig the hall experiment fails - will acton. The guy has decent speed, is very strong on the puck, good corner guy, and wins draws. he is never going to be a scoring machine but it would not be a huge failure for 5-10 games. His passing was good but does not have finish around the net.

He might be our best front of net guy we have right now. I would like to see him get a chance with real nhl players as he was with a couple of camp invites last night

Hall - acton - yakupov
Perron - gagner - eberle
hemsky - gordon - jones
tba - lander - jonescue (sp??)
 

McShogun99

Registered User
Aug 30, 2009
18,022
13,639
Edmonton
I thought Smyth would get top 6 minutes with RNH out but he looks even slower than last season. I think it will look like this.

Perron - Hall - Eberle
Jonesu - Gagner - Yakupov
Smyth - Gordon - Hemsky
Hamilton - Acton - Jones
Eager, Brown

Ference - Petry
Smid - J.Schultz
N. Schultz - Nurse
Potter

This is just my opinion from what i've seen/heard so far in camp. Once training camp is over and RNH is in the lineup i could see the lines looking like this: (Nurse isn't making the team but he looks like one of our top six defenceman already)

Hall - Gagner - Yakupov
Perron - RNH - Eberle
Jonesu - Gordon - Hemsky
Smyth - Acton - Jones
Hamilton, Eager

Ference - Petry
Smid - J.Schultz
N.Schultz - Belov
Potter
 

NAF

Beauty Fakes
Sep 30, 2010
2,025
0
based on being at the calgary game, we may hve a short term option ig the hall experiment fails - will acton. The guy has decent speed, is very strong on the puck, good corner guy, and wins draws. he is never going to be a scoring machine but it would not be a huge failure for 5-10 games. His passing was good but does not have finish around the net.

He might be our best front of net guy we have right now. I would like to see him get a chance with real nhl players as he was with a couple of camp invites last night

Hall - acton - yakupov
Perron - gagner - eberle
hemsky - gordon - jones
tba - lander - jonescue (sp??)

Come on, guy. You don't go from being a career AHL .25 PPG grinder with zero NHL experience to centering a top line in the NHL between two of the best young players in the world. I know you think you saw him good, but that's silly. If he manages to grab the 4C it'll be a big enough miracle.
 

Mr Sakich

Registered User
Mar 8, 2002
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Come on, guy. You don't go from being a career AHL .25 PPG grinder with zero NHL experience to centering a top line in the NHL between two of the best young players in the world. I know you think you saw him good, but that's silly. If he manages to grab the 4C it'll be a big enough miracle.

agreed. it is a huge stretch but you can't fake his tools - size, face off ability, skating, and aggressiveness. Maybe he is a late bloomer as some big guys can be.

Watching him last night, he looked like an excellent 4th line guy. For 5 games, maybe he can be the third wheel of a strong pairing. My opinion is based on one game only and i am probably wrong. IMO, he deserves a long look in the preseason as there is something about him.
 

NAF

Beauty Fakes
Sep 30, 2010
2,025
0
agreed. it is a huge stretch but you can't fake his tools - size, face off ability, skating, and aggressiveness. Maybe he is a late bloomer as some big guys can be.

Watching him last night, he looked like an excellent 4th line guy. For 5 games, maybe he can be the third wheel of a strong pairing. My opinion is based on one game only and i am probably wrong. IMO, he deserves a long look in the preseason as there is something about him.

I dunno. He seemed like a nonfactor to me playing against half of a terrible NHL club. He's maybe got an inch on Lander, who is faster, younger, with more NHL experience and far better AHL production under his belt. I agree Acton deserves a good look, but he's in tough if he wants to eat Lander's lunch.
 
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BoldNewLettuce

Esquire
Dec 21, 2008
28,139
6,972
Canada
I think if hall succeeds then you'll see three scoring lines and Gordon on a shutdown line.

Maybe they move Hemsky by the time nuge is back or if they decide to keep him than they really only have two spots for smyth, brown, eager, Acton, hamilton , Lander, arco etc.

So my sense so far is that it will be arcobello and brown.

Maybe an injury opens up a spot for smyth and/or omark but if not those two may be in okc.

I would personally like to see smyth somehow get a game 7 and see what he does, if it were me though...id keep brown as the extra mustache and have jones-Gordon-arcobello as the 4th line....hamilton-Lander-omark
Eager-pitlick-miller
Hamilton-Acton-kessy?
in the ahl
 
Feb 9, 2013
1,184
738
I like the potential for three scoring lines and a quality 4th line with this years squad... after Nugent-Hopkins returns that is. I am actually a little surprised to be able to think in these terms after a not-so-exciting offseason (maybe it was effective, but not overly exciting).

Perron Hall Hemsky
Eager Nugent-Hopkins Yakupov
Jonesuu Gagner Eberle
Brown Gordon Jones

Smyth/Acton

I worked off the idea of pairings, and I did not know who to throw on Nugent-Hopkins-Yakupov's left wing. I have read that Eager impressed in last years' playoffs, maybe he will earn a shot. With Nugent-Hopkins feeding Yakupov all he would need to do is forecheck and make a little room - plus be a little bit of a deterrent. Jonesuu brings size to Gagner-Eberle, and Hall and Perron are able to make room for themselves. I don't see it as a 1,2,3 line scenario, all three have the potential to play a lot of ice time. Opposing teams would have a tough time matching lines, and maybe be at a bit of a loss as to whom to send their top defensive pairings against. I also don't remember the last time the Oil could ice a fourth line like Gordon-Jones, with Brown as the energy/muscle. His skating makes for a force on the forecheck - and his moustache gives the line a personality.

Until Nugent-Hopkins returns, I could see a more traditional split between
the lines (i.e. scoring, defensive, and energy).

Perron Hall Hemsky
Yakupov Gagner Eberle
Jonesuu Gordon Jones
Eager Acton Brown

Smyth/??????

An Eager-Acton-Brown fourth line has the potential to be hell to play against... as far as fourth lines go.
 

DethOfDragnz

Registered User
Sep 22, 2010
496
161
Edmonton, AB
Eberle-Hall-Yakupov
Perron-Gagner-Hemsky
Smyth-Gordan-Jones
Joensuu-Lander-Brown
Eager-Acton

I believe that this will be the lines until Nuge gets back.
 

The Perfect Human*

Guest
By the time TC's over it'll look like this:

Hemsky Hall Eberle
Perron Gagner Yakupov
Joensuu Gordon Jones
Smyth Lander Acton/Eager

Petry Smid
Ference JSchultz
N.Schultz Belov
Grebs Larsson

Dubnyk
Labarbera

We probably start the year carrying 8D.
 

McClelland

Registered User
Aug 2, 2011
4,451
1,096
Bergen
Based on the lineups today and some chemistry shown yesterday:

Perron-Gagner-Eberle
Joensuu-Hall-Hemsky
Omark-Lander-Yakupov
Smyth/Eager-Gordon-Jones

Yakupov Hall Eberle
Perron Gagner Hemsky
Smyth/Omark Gordon Jones
Joensuu Lander/Acton Brown/Omark

Never mind Having Yak off his naturally wing . Joensuu has had 1 good game against poor competition and he gets 2 line duty? If we lucky he could carve out a down six career.

I think they keep Omark as 13 guy if he isnt blow it totally in the pregames, he will see some Pb. Thinks Omark could split time with Smyth who hasnt have enough fuel for a full season, depending on competition, even 4th line in softer games.

It will be injurys and it would be a waste to losing Omark on Waivers when he has talent to fill in for injured in our top 6.
 

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