FHL: Who will be the first to fold

[PH Hockey Fan]

Can you point those players out to me?

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0074412016.html

What are you looking at? You brought up the list of players, then all you have to do is click on each player. Every player on that roster has legitimate Junior/ Pro Hockey experience. You bring up some way out, left field comment and when someone shows you the facts you still can't accept it. These players may not be the top level players in pro hockey, but they all have some credentials. To say these players come from "beer leagues" is very unfair.

 

[210]

What are you looking at? You brought up the list of players, then all you have to do is click on each player. Every player on that roster has legitimate Junior/ Pro Hockey experience. You bring up some way out, left field comment and when someone shows you the facts you still can't accept it. These players may not be the top level players in pro hockey, but they all have some credentials. To say these players come from "beer leagues" is very unfair.

I never said anything about any of those players. You said "Almost every player has muliple [sic] year Pro hockey experience at a higher level than the FHL."

To make is easy for you to point out the "almost every player", I provided a roster. Can you please point out the players with "muliple [sic] year Pro hockey experience at a higher level than the FHL"?

 

[Avsrule2022]

By my count, 15 out of 41 players on that roster have more than 2 years at a higher level than FHL. And most of those guys had only 1 or 2 games of SPHL experience over their career. Maybe 5 guys on that roster that are actual SPHL material.

 

[takehisheadoff]

How can these teams afford to pay these players when not a single team draws more than 900 at the gate?

 

[Artie Fufkin]

How can these teams afford to pay these players when not a single team draws more than 900 at the gate?

Simple. They can't.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Simple. They can't.

And, often times, they just don't.

 

[PH Hockey Fan]

I looked at every Prowler player that played most of the season with the team. All of them had Junior and pro experience, with many having several years. The list on Hockeydb had players that I did not see all year. To say the players come from rec leagues or right from Bantam programs, is a complete fabrication. You guys are just looking for ways to ridicule the league. That's fine, I just think this league fills a void for some hockey markets. Can't you just let the league play out instead of always prognosticating it demise. There is talk that Traverse City is looking to put a team in the arena that the Red Wings hold their preseason camp in. So expansion is coming. Does this league have flaws- yes, but I plan to be an optimist rather than a constant pessimist.

 

[PH Hockey Fan]

I am also conceeding that this is the lowest pro hockey league. Since it is, don't you think that most of the players wouldn't have a lot of higher pro hockey experience. As an example, when you look at an ECHL, CHL or NHL player's stats, you will see that they have usually pro-gressed rather than re-gressed in their careers. So, of course, the FHL players would not have as much higher level play. These Players have other jobs in the off season to supplement their love of hockey.

 

[210]

I looked at every Prowler player that played most of the season with the team. All of them had Junior and pro experience, with many having several years. The list on Hockeydb had players that I did not see all year. To say the players come from rec leagues or right from Bantam programs, is a complete fabrication. You guys are just looking for ways to ridicule the league. That's fine, I just think this league fills a void for some hockey markets. Can't you just let the league play out instead of always prognosticating it demise. There is talk that Traverse City is looking to put a team in the arena that the Red Wings hold their preseason camp in. So expansion is coming. Does this league have flaws- yes, but I plan to be an optimist rather than a constant pessimist.

I have not ridiculed the league. All I did was ask you to please point out the players with "muliple [sic] year Pro hockey experience at a higher level than the FHL" and provided a link to a list of every player to appear with the team.

Can you not point those players out?

 

[PH Hockey Fan]

Callahan, Pietrasiak, Tatrn, McWinney, Skinner, Harris, Alonzo and Vanwynsberger all have had SPHL experience. 4 players have an OHL history and others have major junior experience while a couple have NAHL play. Look for yourself. Four players were called up to the SPHL this season. Is their a Gretzky or Yzerman on this list -no, but they do play hard and have respectable hockey experience.

 

[PH Hockey Fan]

I forgot to add Joe Pace and Chris Levielle for the SPHL experience. I think that makes 10 players.

 

[210]

The SPHL might be better run, but it's not a higher league than the FHL. Do you know what people in the hockey world call guys that play in the SPHL and FHL more than one season?

They call them "delusional".

 

[Cyclones Rock]

The SPHL might be better run, but it's not a higher league than the FHL. Do you know what people in the hockey world call guys that play in the SPHL and FHL more than one season?

They call them "delusional".

Tell that to Scott Darling.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=105384

The FHL isn't a feeder league in any sense of the word anymore. A few years ago, players could actually come up to the ECHL and contribute. A guy named Jeff Winchester played for the Cincinnati Cyclones a few years back and was actually one of their better defensemen.

The SPHL is at a much higher level than the FHL is now. But, that doesn't mean much given how abysmal the level of play in the FHL is. An SPHL player can move to the ECHL. There's probably not a player in the entire FHL last season who will ever play a full ECHL season. There will be many from last season's SPHL who do.

 

[royals119]

Tell that to Scott Darling.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=105384

The FHL isn't a feeder league in any sense of the word anymore. A few years ago, players could actually come up to the ECHL and contribute. A guy named Jeff Winchester played for the Cincinnati Cyclones a few years back and was actually one of their better defensemen.

The SPHL is at a much higher level than the FHL is now. But, that doesn't mean much given how abysmal the level of play in the FHL is. An SPHL player can move to the ECHL. There's probably not a player in the entire FHL last season who will ever play a full ECHL season. There will be many from last season's SPHL who do.

Darling was admittedly battling alcohol issues during his time in the SPHL. He was always skilled enough to play at a higher level, he was just partying too much and not hitting the gym or taking hockey seriously. That isn't the case with most guys at that level.

 

[jason2020]

Tell that to Scott Darling.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=105384

The FHL isn't a feeder league in any sense of the word anymore. A few years ago, players could actually come up to the ECHL and contribute. A guy named Jeff Winchester played for the Cincinnati Cyclones a few years back and was actually one of their better defensemen.

The SPHL is at a much higher level than the FHL is now. But, that doesn't mean much given how abysmal the level of play in the FHL is. An SPHL player can move to the ECHL. There's probably not a player in the entire FHL last season who will ever play a full ECHL season. There will be many from last season's SPHL who do.

I think the issue the Fhl has its in the hockey meca no the north east people expect a very high standard in the south east fans don't hold that same standard.

 

[210]

Tell that to Scott Darling.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=105384

The FHL isn't a feeder league in any sense of the word anymore. A few years ago, players could actually come up to the ECHL and contribute. A guy named Jeff Winchester played for the Cincinnati Cyclones a few years back and was actually one of their better defensemen.

The SPHL is at a much higher level than the FHL is now. But, that doesn't mean much given how abysmal the level of play in the FHL is. An SPHL player can move to the ECHL. There's probably not a player in the entire FHL last season who will ever play a full ECHL season. There will be many from last season's SPHL who do.

Congratulations on naming one guy out all the guys that have played in the SPHL/FHL. Is there another couple?

And not knowing who Jeff Winchester was, I looked him up. You failed to mention he played in the ECHL and CHL (and in Europe) before playing in the SPHL and FHL.

 

[DaveG]

I think the issue the Fhl has its in the hockey meca no the north east people expect a very high standard in the south east fans don't hold that same standard.

Clarify please

 

[ForsbergForever]

There's probably not a player in the entire FHL last season who will ever play a full ECHL season. There will be many from last season's SPHL who do.

Justin MacDonald was called up by Evansville late last season (while still finishing as the FHL's leading scorer) and played the whole season in the ECHL this year.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=128082

 

[royals119]

see post from yesterday at 9:58

You said these guys played most of the year for PH, and have significant, high level, experience. I looked them up.
Callahan, Junior A tier 2, Division 3 college for three years, SPHL/FHL
Pietrasiak, four years div 3, SPHL and FHL
Tatrn, Four years OHL (where he scored a total of 34 points and was -56 in 172 games), plus a year of US juniors, FHL/SPHL and one game in the ECHL, but he only played 6 games in PH
McWinney, 2 years Junior A, a couple years in the CHL/UHL, mostly as a backup. FHL/SPHL the last six years, only played 10 games for PH
Skinner, 2 years US junior A, 10 games div 3, FHL/SPHL for the last 6 years
Harris, 9 games Major junior, 2 seasons Junior A, FHL/SPHL for 3 years, 8 games with PH
Alonzo - played 4 years of div 3 hockey, bounces back and forth between FHL and SPHL
Vanwynsberger - No junior or college listed - has played for multiple teams in the FHL and SPHL each of the last 3 seasons.

all have had SPHL experience

- the SPHL isn't a higher league than the FHL. Higher paid maybe. I wouldn't consider a few games in the SPHL as higher level experience.

4 players have an OHL history and others have major junior experience while a couple have NAHL play.

The OHL/Major junior histories are dubious at best. Most of the NAHL is tier 3. Major junior means OHL, WHL, QMJHL. Also big difference between a guy who spend four years playing alongside Crosby and a guy who played ten games total with minimal ice time.

Look for yourself. Four players were called up to the SPHL this season. Is their a Gretzky or Yzerman on this list -no, but they do play hard and have respectable hockey experience.

I don't doubt they play hard, but that isn't "respectable hockey experience", at least compared to pro players in higher leagues. I wouldn't consider playing in the SPHL a "call-up". More of a lateral move.

Your list of guys who played "most of the season" didn't list these guys who played at least 30 games for Port Huron
Nichols - four years of level 3 US juniors and 10 games of Div 3 hockey FHL/SPHL
Mahfouz - three partial seasons of CJHL (low level junior) FHL/SPHL
Tagoona - Junior A FHL/SPHL
Witmyer - US Tier 3 junior A, 5 games of Div 3 college, then 3 years of no pro or college hockey before joining PH. (I assume he finished his degree, but didn't play any more after those five games.) FHL/SPHL
Fuller - Played parts of two seasons in the OHL (was he hurt, or was he a healthy scratch?), then 10 games for U of Windsor (Canadian University Hockey - I assume he dropped out?) FHL/SPHL
Soskin - 17 games at two different Div 3 colleges, no junior hockey listed. FHL/SPHL
Fraser - Canadian Junior A for part of one season FHL/SPHL
Pelletier - Canadian Junior A - five years FHL/SPHL
Devine - US Junior A, div 3 for two years - FHL and SPHL
Pace - 13 years between the UHL, SPHL, FHL, AAHL (new)IHL, SPHL, CHL, and AAHA. Wow, this guy is committed to the low minor life. I have to assume he has a job selling real estate or trading stocks online or something where he sets his own schedule and can move around a lot. Either that or someone else is paying his bills.
DiCristofaro - one season of ACHA college hockey (mostly club teams)

So that is the guys who played more than half the season, and most of them played low level juniors or a few games of Div 3 college. If I looked at the guys who only played a few games, I could probably find fill in guys with even less experience.

I'm not busting on the FHL. Someone asked what kind of players they have. From what I can gather, the top players are mostly Junior A, Canadian University, or Division 3 US college players. Players with that type of background haven't been making ECHL rosters for at least a few years now. It used to be that top end Canadian Univ or Div 3 players could make an ECHL team, but with the consolidation of leagues they have been pretty much squeezed out. There also have at least some guys playing in the FHL who played only a few games of Div 3 or club hockey at small colleges, or only played minimally in juniors, or not at all. Those type of players would typically be playing in the local house league at a rec rink. With limited budgets it isn't surprising. I would assume most teams sign a few players with some real experience who they expect to have most of the year, and they fill out the rest of the roster with extra guys that have full time jobs doing something else and they either don't pay them, or give them a couple bucks per game. That is how it works in Canada with the LNAH and other "senior leagues". Most guys have another job, the top line is getting paid regularly, the bottom line guys show up when they can, and play for the fun of it and maybe some free equipment.

Some people like to claim the FHL is taking advantage of these guys. That may or may not be true. A local guy who works a job with flexible hours who is paying to play now, who gets the chance to play for free, in front a few hundred cheering fans, who knows full well this isn't going to lead to a hockey career, isn't being taken advantage of. He knows what he is getting into. If he has to chip in for gas money and do some of the driving to go to a road game, it is still better that what he would be doing that weekend if he wasn't playing for the local FHL team.

As with any league there is a mixture of players. A few top end guys in the ECHL are going to end up having a decent NHL career, and there are guys who will play half a season, get healthy scratched a lot, and retire after one year. Same thing with the FHL, except the top end guys might jump around between the FHL and SPHL for a few years, and maybe get a tryout or a few fill in games with an ECHL team, and the bottom end guys are just rec league guys living the dream for a weekend or two. Nothing wrong with that, and if it is the difference between your town having a team and not having a team, I would go and support it too.

 

[royals119]

Justin MacDonald was called up by Evansville late last season (while still finishing as the FHL's leading scorer) and played the whole season in the ECHL this year.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=128082

Well, he played 35 games, out of 72. Maybe he was on the roster the whole year, but he didn't play the whole year. Was he injured, or was he the 11th forward and he got scratched when everyone else was available ?

Also, Evansville was terrible, so the leading scorer from the FHL was a depth player on a bad team in the ECHL.

Plus he had 3 seasons where he played mostly in the SPHL before he went to the FHL last year.

 

[SemireliableSource]

the SPHL isn't a higher league than the FHL. Higher paid maybe. I wouldn't consider a few games in the SPHL as higher level experience.

lol

Let's use the same players you listed:

Callahan - SPHL: 36 GP, 2 G, 8 A, +14/FHL: 13 GP, 4 G, 11 A, +18
Pietrasiak - SPHL: 25 GP, 2 G, 7 A, -5/FHL: 78 GP, 32 G, 63 A, +22
Tatrn - SPHL: 16 GP, 2 G, 1 A, E/FHL: 75 GP, 26 G, 46 A, -22
McWhinney - SPHL: 65-54-12, 2.82, 0.911/FHL: 39-12-1, 3.10, 0.912
Skinner - SPHL: 5 GP, 0 G, 0 A, -4/FHL: 213 GP, 102 G, 143 A, +12
Harris - SPHL: 28 GP, 3 G, 6 A, -4/FHL: 61 GP, 39 G, 30 A, -1
Alonzo - SPHL: 61 GP, 8 G, 20 A, E/FHL: 88 GP, 44 G, 90 A, +26
Vanwynsberghe - SPHL: 31 GP, 4 G, 0 A, -1 /FHL: 114 GP, 73 G, 96 A, +79

Those numbers seem to argue that the SPHL has a better level of play.

Top scorers from the FHL get called up to the SPHL and simply don't produce on the same level. The quality of play is a significant step up and also, a lot of those guys don't really have to work for it. They're the most skilled fish in a small pond, then in the SPHL they're on the low end of the skill spectrum instantly.

 

[PH Hockey Fan]

You said these guys played most of the year for PH, and have significant, high level, experience. I looked them up.
Callahan, Junior A tier 2, Division 3 college for three years, SPHL/FHL
Pietrasiak, four years div 3, SPHL and FHL
Tatrn, Four years OHL (where he scored a total of 34 points and was -56 in 172 games), plus a year of US juniors, FHL/SPHL and one game in the ECHL, but he only played 6 games in PH
McWinney, 2 years Junior A, a couple years in the CHL/UHL, mostly as a backup. FHL/SPHL the last six years, only played 10 games for PH
Skinner, 2 years US junior A, 10 games div 3, FHL/SPHL for the last 6 years
Harris, 9 games Major junior, 2 seasons Junior A, FHL/SPHL for 3 years, 8 games with PH
Alonzo - played 4 years of div 3 hockey, bounces back and forth between FHL and SPHL
Vanwynsberger - No junior or college listed - has played for multiple teams in the FHL and SPHL each of the last 3 seasons.

- the SPHL isn't a higher league than the FHL. Higher paid maybe. I wouldn't consider a few games in the SPHL as higher level experience.
The OHL/Major junior histories are dubious at best. Most of the NAHL is tier 3. Major junior means OHL, WHL, QMJHL. Also big difference between a guy who spend four years playing alongside Crosby and a guy who played ten games total with minimal ice time.


I don't doubt they play hard, but that isn't "respectable hockey experience", at least compared to pro players in higher leagues. I wouldn't consider playing in the SPHL a "call-up". More of a lateral move.

Your list of guys who played "most of the season" didn't list these guys who played at least 30 games for Port Huron
Nichols - four years of level 3 US juniors and 10 games of Div 3 hockey FHL/SPHL
Mahfouz - three partial seasons of CJHL (low level junior) FHL/SPHL
Tagoona - Junior A FHL/SPHL
Witmyer - US Tier 3 junior A, 5 games of Div 3 college, then 3 years of no pro or college hockey before joining PH. (I assume he finished his degree, but didn't play any more after those five games.) FHL/SPHL
Fuller - Played parts of two seasons in the OHL (was he hurt, or was he a healthy scratch?), then 10 games for U of Windsor (Canadian University Hockey - I assume he dropped out?) FHL/SPHL
Soskin - 17 games at two different Div 3 colleges, no junior hockey listed. FHL/SPHL
Fraser - Canadian Junior A for part of one season FHL/SPHL
Pelletier - Canadian Junior A - five years FHL/SPHL
Devine - US Junior A, div 3 for two years - FHL and SPHL
Pace - 13 years between the UHL, SPHL, FHL, AAHL (new)IHL, SPHL, CHL, and AAHA. Wow, this guy is committed to the low minor life. I have to assume he has a job selling real estate or trading stocks online or something where he sets his own schedule and can move around a lot. Either that or someone else is paying his bills.
DiCristofaro - one season of ACHA college hockey (mostly club teams)

So that is the guys who played more than half the season, and most of them played low level juniors or a few games of Div 3 college. If I looked at the guys who only played a few games, I could probably find fill in guys with even less experience.

I'm not busting on the FHL. Someone asked what kind of players they have. From what I can gather, the top players are mostly Junior A, Canadian University, or Division 3 US college players. Players with that type of background haven't been making ECHL rosters for at least a few years now. It used to be that top end Canadian Univ or Div 3 players could make an ECHL team, but with the consolidation of leagues they have been pretty much squeezed out. There also have at least some guys playing in the FHL who played only a few games of Div 3 or club hockey at small colleges, or only played minimally in juniors, or not at all. Those type of players would typically be playing in the local house league at a rec rink. With limited budgets it isn't surprising. I would assume most teams sign a few players with some real experience who they expect to have most of the year, and they fill out the rest of the roster with extra guys that have full time jobs doing something else and they either don't pay them, or give them a couple bucks per game. That is how it works in Canada with the LNAH and other "senior leagues". Most guys have another job, the top line is getting paid regularly, the bottom line guys show up when they can, and play for the fun of it and maybe some free equipment.

Some people like to claim the FHL is taking advantage of these guys. That may or may not be true. A local guy who works a job with flexible hours who is paying to play now, who gets the chance to play for free, in front a few hundred cheering fans, who knows full well this isn't going to lead to a hockey career, isn't being taken advantage of. He knows what he is getting into. If he has to chip in for gas money and do some of the driving to go to a road game, it is still better that what he would be doing that weekend if he wasn't playing for the local FHL team.

As with any league there is a mixture of players. A few top end guys in the ECHL are going to end up having a decent NHL career, and there are guys who will play half a season, get healthy scratched a lot, and retire after one year. Same thing with the FHL, except the top end guys might jump around between the FHL and SPHL for a few years, and maybe get a tryout or a few fill in games with an ECHL team, and the bottom end guys are just rec league guys living the dream for a weekend or two. Nothing wrong with that, and if it is the difference between your town having a team and not having a team, I would go and support it too.

It was never my intent to get on here and argue with any of you. I have conceded and have stated over and over that it is a lower calaber grade of hockey. I get it! Do I really care how much hockey pedigree each player has on the Prowlers or the FHL in general-no. We have fun going to the games, it's 10 minutes from home. Our home team won a championship this year. If I want to get my fix of NHL hockey, I will travel to The Joe and see the Red Wings 3 or 4 times a year.
The players were great in the community. They must have went to every elementary school in Port Huron this year to play some stick hockey with the kids or read books to the younger classes. That makes me even more proud of them especially when you think of the little money they make playing the sport that they still love. Apparently they are comfortable with the wage they receive. No one is holding them for ramsom. Let's all just lighten up a little and enjoy hockey. I assume that everyone on this site feels the same about this great sport or they wouldn't spend the time involved with it, what ever level it might be.