OT: Failure of a team, Failure of a rebuild
- Thread starter Adrianopolous
- Start date
Tuna99
Registered User
- Sep 26, 2009
- 14,924
- 6,979
It’s almost like Steve Staois was doing something Alvin couldn’t do - like playing 1 or 1000 games in the NHL.
This and the thing with the babies getting choked
Tnuoc Alucard
🇨🇦🔑🧲✈️🎲🥅🎱🍟🥨🌗
- Sep 23, 2015
- 8,077
- 1,920
He hired Rick Tocchet immediately after he fired Bruce Boudreau in January of last year….. did not wait a year, or hire a Substitute Teacher for the rest of the season, and bring in Tocchet in the off season..
Tocchet go the remainder of the 22/23 season to get his system into place, see who bought in and who did not…and worked with management over the entire offseason to rework/retool the team, and today they are seeing the benefits of Allvin’s decision, to go with a head coach with a decent track record.
Tnuoc Alucard
🇨🇦🔑🧲✈️🎲🥅🎱🍟🥨🌗
- Sep 23, 2015
- 8,077
- 1,920
Did you just start watching hockey?
Do you honestly believe SS playing, let me repeat that, playing in the NHL… is the exact same experience and knowledge gaining exercise as ALLVIN, working for over 20 years in NHL management ?
Scotty Bowman played ZERO games in the NHL, so I guess by your criteria of what makes a GM,Steve Staios will surpass Bowman as a GM.
Golden_Jet
Registered User
- Sep 21, 2005
- 22,808
- 11,136
Didn’t answer the question though.
Why did Alvin wait a year to hire Tocchet, why didn’t he fire BB sooner. Wasted a whole year.
Tuna99
Registered User
- Sep 26, 2009
- 14,924
- 6,979
Okay you love Alvin for his dedication to not being good enough to ply in the NHL but want to be a part of it.
It doesn’t change the fundamental fact that a rookie GM turned that entire franchise around in 1 season - and ours can do the same thing. It undermines your entire argument you’re making against Staois.
you are comparing Alvin’s CV to Staois CV - a massive waste of your time since it’s semantics - and in the end they both could accomplish the exact same thing and turn their franchise around in 1 season o
Tnuoc Alucard
🇨🇦🔑🧲✈️🎲🥅🎱🍟🥨🌗
- Sep 23, 2015
- 8,077
- 1,920
Well, Allvin fired BB when it needed to be done, and that was Jan. last year.
Why don’t you tell me why Dorion didn’t fire DJS after the 2022/23 season?
Tnuoc Alucard
🇨🇦🔑🧲✈️🎲🥅🎱🍟🥨🌗
- Sep 23, 2015
- 8,077
- 1,920
It’s obvious that you don’t see the accumulated contacts Allvin, working in NHL management, in various capacities, assistant GM in Pittsburgh, and that 20 years experience makes him a much better equipped NHL GM, than SS is, who has only about 4 years working in NHL management, primarily in player development.
Playing in the NHL is not a prerequisite to becoming a NHL GM….. did I mention Scotty Bowman, ZERO games as a player in the NHL?
Tuna99
Registered User
- Sep 26, 2009
- 14,924
- 6,979
I will say this about NHL experience since we are on that subject - Rick Tocchet played in NHL instead of coaching in juniors and he ended up being a good coach.
Your making a silly argument that being at the top level of NHL hockey between the ages of 20-30 is a disadvantage to your NHL experience since you could be sitting in the stands watching them play hockey with a pencil in your hand - STUPID
milkbag
Registered User
- Jul 31, 2018
- 955
- 1,360
Why don't you tell us why Dorion didn't do it? You spent enough time defending him, why stop the contrarian schtick now?
Adrianopolous
Registered User
26 pages and 6 months later I wonder if I was right or if you were wrong
More stats.
Is chabot chychrun that bad? Maybe goaltending has made everyone look worse than they actually have been
BonHoonLayneCornell
Registered User
Senscore
Let's keep it cold
- Nov 19, 2012
- 20,149
- 14,893
Him being bad with Zub is an odd outlier given how generally responsible Zub is.
That being said it seems pretty clear that this team has a problem with goaltending and a problem with depth, which was an issue made real by the cap issues we ran into. That LTIR bullshit by the Leafs with Murray really did hurt us.
And maybe that's enough to turn the season into a lost one like it is. Certainly seemed to be enough to break the supposed Cup contending Devils, who are very much struggling from similar issues.
I guess the good news about all this is that with a little attention, the rebuild may not be the abject failure that some are making it out to be. A lot will depend on who Staios finds to play goal for us next year.
There is simply no way it can be either Forsberg or Korpisalo. That's basically throwing in the towel on the year if so
BonHoonLayneCornell
Registered User
Overall, it was arguably a successful trade, but part of his problem was when good ones like this and the Dzingel/Duclair trade happened, what came back was quickly turned in to very little.
Gustavsson gone for a UFA. JBD is servicable, but clearly a disappointment. Sogaard remains, but the pick from this one was only for moving up 8 spot to get him, and considering Dorion's track record of never acquiring a capable goalie, it's hard to have much faith.
Meanwhile the Dzingel trade that was initially solid, has left us with nothing but Matt Murray's cap hit that contributed to their cap issues this season.
Last edited:
BonHoonLayneCornell
Registered User
All of which were acquired and signed to their current deals by Pierre Dorion.
AchtzehnBaby
Global Matador
There was a head scout and a goaltending scout. Gosh darn that Pierre
Micklebot
Moderator
- Apr 27, 2010
- 53,835
- 31,048
Apparently for Korpisalo, he came highly recommended by the goalie coach (who ironically has now been demoted)
BonHoonLayneCornell
Registered User
The brain trust was what it was. Thankfully, the main decision maker has been fired and hopefully the others providing the advice follow this summer.
Tnuoc Alucard
🇨🇦🔑🧲✈️🎲🥅🎱🍟🥨🌗
- Sep 23, 2015
- 8,077
- 1,920
Why don’t you explain why Staios kept DJS around for so long after assuming the GM duties? All you’ve done is defend Staios and his lacklustre efforts to improve the team with a meaningless goaltender coach swap, installing a caretaker coach for the final 57 games, and some insignificant waiver wire pickups.
Perhaps explaining his slow cautious approach is “defending “ him?
Micklebot
Moderator
- Apr 27, 2010
- 53,835
- 31,048
Dorion was fired Nov 1st, DJ got axed 18 games later on 18 Dec but Staios wasn't named full time GM until two weeks later at the end of the month.
At the time, Staios was likely apprehensive of making a coaching change when it was still undecided who the GM would be, opting instead to leave that decision to the incoming GM. It's likely that by the time DJ was fired, it was becoming more clear the direction the team was going wrt a new GM, it may have already been decided just not announced that Staios would lose the interim tag.
It's unlikely that an earlier coaching change would have had any real impact on the goaltending though, so these changes wouldn't have had any significant impact on how the season played out.
There's an assumption that had we fired DJ earlier, maybe we'd have a guy like Berube or Gallant getting the team ready for next season, identifying the issues and working towards correcting them, but this assumes either guy wants to come in mid season,both guys are still collecting a paycheck from their prior teams and don't need to rush into anything
I think the problem is Chychrun isn't a shifty skater who can move the puck with his feet.
It's not going to look good with Zub because both Chychrun and Zub are more stationary defensemen.
So to me it comes down to - who do you want anchoring that second pairing and who do you get? Gamble on another year of Chabot or Chychrun or find a complementary partner to one of them and move on from the other?
Sanderson (shifty) - Zub (stationary)
and then
Chabot? (shifty) - stationary top 4 defenseman who can play good reliable defense
or
Chychrun (stationary) - mobile top 4 defenseman who is a bit more of a 2 way threat
NyQuil
Big F$&*in Q
I think it's becoming apparent that those teams that are labeled contenders at this point all have solid defensive corps - on the defensive side of the puck.
Even teams with generational/superstar talent like McDavid, Draisaitl, Crosby and Matthews struggle compared to the truly elite teams because their D is not good enough. Goaltenders can help to hide it, but in general they end up looking exposed.
We have a talented defensive corps but they aren't quite physical/nasty enough and they aren't quite stable enough. They are also extremely gaffe prone.
Sanderson shouldn't be the #1 defenceman at his age and in the stage of his career when considering the combined salary of our defensive corps. But he is.
Zub should be a DeMelo-like afterthought as opposed to one of the key players on the team. He makes it look so easy that it really grates on you when his teammates appear to have issues with basic coverage.
Chabot's Jekyll and Hyde act is wearing thin. When I think of Chabot, I think of this:
The hope is still flickering for some reason but he's way behind his career trajectory at this point. It's hard to have a really hot/cold guy playing that many minutes.
I think the fear is that he suddenly becomes the guy he was trending to become for another team and we look like idiots. But Redden had problems and those problems followed him to New York.
Chychrun is an all tools no toolbox kind of player. He's a specimen, he can be physical, fast, he has a powerful shot. He reminds me a bit of Corvo in terms of his willingness to gamble on poke checks in the neutral zone as opposed to playing more conservatively. Often he looks completely lost out there in the defensive zone.
This past game showed what a weapon he can be - the way Norris was in his contract year. Special teams have really let us down this year in general.
I admire Brannstrom's tenacity and his determination to stick at this level. Unfortunately, he doesn't have quite enough speed to compensate for his lack of size. I have the anecdotal feeling that we can get pinned in our zone with him on the ice. I don't know if he'll ever really overcome that.
I don't have a lot of optimism about JBD as far as a reminding me of a Patrick Wiercioch type player who is sort of vanilla at everything. I think he can be a bit more physical than Wiercioch, but I suspect he's holding back a bit in order to try to stay defensively responsible. If he grows more comfortable, maybe he can add that aspect to his game with more frequency.
Kleven is a bit under the radar but I think he could be the kind of guy who could really have an impact and solidify that bottom-pairing. He's someone I'm low-key excited about.
Having Chabot and Chychrun not perform like top 4 defencemen for large portions of the season is a mortal wound on a team that doesn't have elite goaltending.
Even teams with generational/superstar talent like McDavid, Draisaitl, Crosby and Matthews struggle compared to the truly elite teams because their D is not good enough. Goaltenders can help to hide it, but in general they end up looking exposed.
We have a talented defensive corps but they aren't quite physical/nasty enough and they aren't quite stable enough. They are also extremely gaffe prone.
Sanderson shouldn't be the #1 defenceman at his age and in the stage of his career when considering the combined salary of our defensive corps. But he is.
Zub should be a DeMelo-like afterthought as opposed to one of the key players on the team. He makes it look so easy that it really grates on you when his teammates appear to have issues with basic coverage.
Chabot's Jekyll and Hyde act is wearing thin. When I think of Chabot, I think of this:
The hope is still flickering for some reason but he's way behind his career trajectory at this point. It's hard to have a really hot/cold guy playing that many minutes.
I think the fear is that he suddenly becomes the guy he was trending to become for another team and we look like idiots. But Redden had problems and those problems followed him to New York.
Chychrun is an all tools no toolbox kind of player. He's a specimen, he can be physical, fast, he has a powerful shot. He reminds me a bit of Corvo in terms of his willingness to gamble on poke checks in the neutral zone as opposed to playing more conservatively. Often he looks completely lost out there in the defensive zone.
This past game showed what a weapon he can be - the way Norris was in his contract year. Special teams have really let us down this year in general.
I admire Brannstrom's tenacity and his determination to stick at this level. Unfortunately, he doesn't have quite enough speed to compensate for his lack of size. I have the anecdotal feeling that we can get pinned in our zone with him on the ice. I don't know if he'll ever really overcome that.
I don't have a lot of optimism about JBD as far as a reminding me of a Patrick Wiercioch type player who is sort of vanilla at everything. I think he can be a bit more physical than Wiercioch, but I suspect he's holding back a bit in order to try to stay defensively responsible. If he grows more comfortable, maybe he can add that aspect to his game with more frequency.
Kleven is a bit under the radar but I think he could be the kind of guy who could really have an impact and solidify that bottom-pairing. He's someone I'm low-key excited about.
Having Chabot and Chychrun not perform like top 4 defencemen for large portions of the season is a mortal wound on a team that doesn't have elite goaltending.
