Expansion Draft Thread II

[A Loyal Dog]

This has been explained ad nauseum in other threads about MN, Anaheim, NYI, and esp LV. You still don't seem to understand the process at all.

I do understand. But it's still a bad deal for Vegas regardless if a deal had taken place before the trade freeze or not. Vegas could have asked for more to let Minnesota keep their team intact. They didn't. Their problem. Fletcher is a wizard!

 

[Go Wings]

Gotta think Vegas will move some defensemen - they are loaded on D.

Fleury is a good first face of that franchise.

Loaded really?

 

[CrypTic]

I do understand. But it's still a bad deal for Vegas regardless if a deal had taken place before the trade freeze or not. Vegas could have asked for more to let Minnesota keep their team intact. They didn't. Their problem. Fletcher is a wizard!

I don't know. It really depends on what returns he could get for Brodin, Dumba, Scandella, etc. If Fletcher got good returns for them (and he should have), LV was in a weak position in those negotiations. If he got great returns, LV was in a very weak position and Fletcher was in a very strong one. There's a good chance that's what we're seeing here. It may also be that McPhee sucked in those negotiations but without more info, there's no way to tell.

 

[smsgtkvv]

When does the league unfreeze?

When you are eating breakfast tomorrow morning.

 

[HanSolo]

Loaded really?

They have 14 defensemen...

 

[Del Preston]

They have $874,167 in cap space after tonight. If nothing else the expansion draft showed there's a lot of **** contracts for some mediocre/bad players in the league today.

 

[Go Wings]

They have 14 defensemen...

How many of them are worth anything? Methot, Theodore or VRD

 

[A Loyal Dog]

I don't know. It really depends on what returns he could get for Brodin, Dumba, Scandella, etc. If Fletcher got good returns for them (and he should have), LV was in a weak position in those negotiations. If he got great returns, LV was in a very weak position. There's a good chance that's what we're seeing here. It may also be that McPhee sucked in those negotiations but without more info, there's no way to tell.

It's obvious that Minnesota would have traded one of Brodin/Dumba if McPhee had been harsher in the negotiations. But then again, there's still Scandella and Staal to protect. Okay, so now would Minnesota also try to trade Staal and Scandella away too? If so, their team suddenly takes a hit, since they're trading in a position of weakness. That Vegas/Minny trade would have been fair-ish had it only been Staal/Scandella being protected, but it wasn't, since Dumba was exposed. Vegas should have been a little more vigilant with a team like Minnesota. That could/should have been the jackpot for them.

 

[CrypTic]

It's obvious that Minnesota would have traded one of Brodin/Dumba if McPhee had been harsher in the negotiations. But then again, there's still Scandella and Staal to protect. Okay, so now would Minnesota also try to trade Staal and Scandella away too? If so, their team suddenly takes a hit, since they're trading in a position of weakness. That Vegas/Minny trade would have been fair had it been Staal/Scandella being protected, but it wasn't, since Dumba was exposed. Vegas should have been a little more vigilant with a team like Minnesota.

If MN were getting great returns on all the players, they may have easily preferred to trade three of them than to give one away to LV or to cave in on LV's demands. Depending on who they got back in trade, their team may have even been stronger. That's why I say that you need more information.

I"m not saying that McPhee didn't mess up. He may have. But you need more info in order to be able to say that bc MN may have been in an excellent position to tell him to get bent for anything but weak demands. My own guess is that Fletcher did very well but it's a guess.

 

[A Loyal Dog]

If MN were getting great returns on all the players, they may have easily preferred to trade three of them than to give one away to LV or to cave in on LV's demands. Depending on who they got back in trade, their team may have even been stronger. That's why I say that you need more information.

I"m not saying that McPhee didn't mess up. He may have. But you need more info in order to be able to say that bc MN may have been in an excellent position to tell him to get bent for anything but weak demands. My own guess is that Fletcher did well - very well but it's a guess.

Minnesota would be in a position of weakness if that were the case. It's not like they were the only team that had to have a protection list: other teams who would have tried acquiring one of Dumba/Brodin or Scandella or Staal would have had to protect them as well (not many teams were in a position of strength to protect an extra forward/defenseman). Minnesota would have only been able to acquire picks and expansion-exempt players, and again, most teams would have thought twice, considering they had to protect their own players as well as whoever they would have received (in return for futures they might not have wanted to give - one example for this is TB, who traded Drouin for a future d-man in Sergachev, a trade won by MTL unless Sergachev meets his expectations - anyway TB did so for expansion and cap reasons: the exact same problems MIN was facing). Vegas got fleeced, plain and simple. Now Minnesota is better than ever and ready to trade a player in a position of strength.

 

[Nalens Oga]

So I thought that the Detroit and Calgary picks were bad, the others are excusable. The Montreal one is also sketchy to me, Davidson is a lot cheaper than Emelin and pretty much the same quality. My thinking for those moves is this:

McPhee like most GMs is probably old school and thought he needed to bring in some physicality somehow so he probably targetted Engelland and Emelin because of that. For the Detroit pick, maybe they just didn't like Mrazek enough to commit that much money on him + Fleury for some reason but I still think that he has the highest potential outside of maybe Schmidt in terms of all the players they could've drafted. I was just surprised there was no side deal worked out with Detroit at least not yet.

 

[CrypTic]

Minnesota would be in a position of weakness if that were the case. It's not like they were the only team that had to have a protection list: other teams who would have tried acquiring one of Dumba/Brodin or Scandella or Staal would have had to find place in their protection list as well.

Which would affect the return. I'm positing a scenario where they got excellent returns despite that. I don't know how you can say that MN would be in a position of weakness if they were getting excellent offers. It makes me think you haven't done many negotiations. It makes zero sense to me.

Minnesota would have only been able to acquire picks and expansion-exempt players, and most teams wouldn't want to add more difficulties with their expansion-protected list. Vegas got fleeced, plain and simple. Now Minnesota is better than ever and ready to trade a player in a position of strength.

I know the bolded. And being able to keep them to trade after the ED, when they'd obviously get an even better return, is one reason they'd do a deal with LV and give them more than they might have otherwise. It would be clear to both LV and MN that if they could trade, e.g., Brodin for X before the ED, they could trade him for X + Y after, just like LV could have.

 

[Evgeny Oliker]

Mrazek

I don't get taking Nosek over Mrazek either...

So u take an average or below average forward prospect over a goalie who can be a #1 in the NHL?

 

[hockeykicker]

I don't get taking Nosek over Mrazek either...

So u take an average or below average forward prospect over a goalie who can be a #1 in the NHL?

they already have fleury as their #1

 

[CrypTic]

So I thought that the Detroit and Calgary picks were bad, the others are excusable. The Montreal one is also sketchy to me, Davidson is a lot cheaper than Emelin and pretty much the same quality. My thinking for those moves is this:

McPhee like most GMs is probably old school and thought he needed to bring in some physicality somehow so he probably targetted Engelland and Emelin because of that. For the Detroit pick, maybe they just didn't like Mrazek enough to commit that much money on him + Fleury for some reason but I still think that he has the highest potential outside of maybe Schmidt in terms of all the players they could've drafted. I was just surprised there was no side deal worked out with Detroit at least not yet.

The Detroit pick was puzzling to me too. I thought Mzarek was the best option from Detroit and at least close enough to the other unprotected goalies to be worth it. All I could think of was the contract, too. I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who has other theories.

 

[Evgeny Oliker]

...

they already have fleury as their #1

That's nice but for how long?

Fleury is 32 and on the decline.

Las Vegas will not compete for a Cup for at least a few years.

 

[Cardiac Jerks]

they already have fleury as their #1

So? Mrazek is much younger and you can never have too much talent in net.

 

[ichabod13]

Las Vegas will not compete for a Cup for at least a few years.

who expected them to?

 

[mouser]

I don't get taking Nosek over Mrazek either...

So u take an average or below average forward prospect over a goalie who can be a #1 in the NHL?

The Detroit pick was puzzling to me too. I thought Mzarek was the best option from Detroit and at least close enough to the other unprotected goalies to be worth it. All I could think of was the contract, too. I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who has other theories.

Clearly no team bid more for Mrazek in the auction then the worst value defenseman Vegas voluntarily selected.

 

[Go Wings]

Clearly no team bid more for Mrazek in the auction then the worst value defenseman Vegas voluntarily selected.

Nosek is a forward.

 

[A Loyal Dog]

Which would affect the return. I'm positing a scenario where they got excellent returns despite that. I don't know how you can say that MN would be in a position of weakness if they were getting excellent offers. It makes me think you haven't done many negotiations. It makes zero sense to me.

Tampa was in a similar position - actually theirs was not as bad. That said, they traded Drouin for Sergachev. That's what being a position of weakness does. Sure, they may have received a future stellar defenseman in Sergachev, but they did trade away a sure-thing, first-line caliber with great offensive skills and high value in Drouin. In a position of strength, Montreal would have had to add more (way more) for a just-turned 22 year old stud forward who was drafted 3rd overall just a few years ago.

Similar trades would have happened with Minnesota if they had to trade away their players. They would have to receive futures (prospects/picks) but still lose out in some way (maybe win, but with great risk) - since they had no place to protect anyone else (unless they traded Dumba + Scandella + Staal + someone for a major package returning, say, a 1C and a blue-chip prospect, though, again, every team was facing the same expansion issue). They could receive whatever excellent offers: truth is, they would still have to part ways with their player and ONLY be able to receive futures, and thus why they would be in a position of weakness.

As for your snidey little remark at the end there about me not having done many negotiations, I think it shows that you, if anyone, don't understand how deals work. The fact that most people are laughing at what Vegas took from Minnesota and calling Minnesota's GM amazing should show to you that Vegas was on the wrong side of the deal. They just helped Minnesota out, not the other way around. "Oh but, but, but Minny did a deal with Veg--" it doesn't matter. What matters is Vegas got fleeced plain and simple. No what-if's or but's or whatever.

I know the bolded. And being able to keep them to trade after the ED, when they'd obviously get an even better return, is one reason they'd do a deal with LV and give them more than they might have otherwise.

That's up to Vegas to be vigilant and understand what a precarious situation Minnesota was in. They should have taken a chance - since it's likely Minnesota wouldn't be able to trade all 3 pieces. They did the deal, they got ****ed. Minnesota comes out on top. Vegas looks stupid, along with their team filled with aging/expensive bottom feeders. End of story.


Vegas could turn things around, making trades as we move towards free agency. They could also make a splash with draft picks. But this, if anything, was a step in the wrong direction.

 

[mouser]

Nosek is a forward.

I know that, but Vegas had to take 14 forwards and took exactly that many.

Ergo if Vegas takes Mrazek instead of Nosek then they have to take one more forward from another team and one less defenseman then they ended up selecting.

I thought it was a more fair value description of the situation to say that Vegas chose another dman over Mrazek then saying they chose Nosek over Mrazek.

 

[CrypTic]

As for your snidey little remark at the end there about me not having done many negotiations, I think it shows that you, if anyone, don't understand how deals work. The fact that most people are laughing at what Vegas took from Minnesota and calling Minnesota's GM amazing should show to you that Vegas was on the wrong side of the deal. They just helped Minnesota out, not the other way around. "Oh but, but, but Minny did a deal with Veg--" it doesn't matter. What matters is Vegas got fleeced plain and simple. No what-if's or but's or whatever.

It wasn't snidey. I honestly have no idea how you could think that getting excellent offers for their players would put MN in a position of weakness when it's the opposite. It seems to me like you're talking about something you have no experience with. You seem to be confirming that here bc you don't address that point.

Most of the ppl I've seen make the remarks above also seem like they have no idea how deals or negotiations work. The comments from ppl who seem like they know something about negotiations almost all say that Dumba, Vatanen, etc. were never on the table to begin with and ppl criticizing LV for not getting someone like that (or LV not getting a deal somewhere in the ballpark of them trading a e.g., Dumba, pick for someone else) were out to lunch.

I'm done. If ppl want to find out why Dumba, Brodin, Vatanen, etc. were never available to LV (and that they, therefore, could not get a big bribe for not selecting them), they can read other threads where it's discussed.

 

[Stuzchuk]

Forwards
[table="head]LW|C|RW|
William Carrier (BUF)|William Karlsson (CBJ)|Teemu Pulkkinen (ARI)
Connor Brickley (UFA) (CAR)|Cody Eakin (DAL)|Jon Marchessault (FLA)
Brendan Leipsic (TOR)|Tomas Nosek (DET)|James Neal (NAS)
|Erik Haula (MIN)|David Perron (STL)
|Oscar Lindberg (NYR)|Chris Thorburn (UFA) (WPG)
|Pierre-Edouard Bellemare (PHI)|
[/table]

Defence
[table="head]LD|RD|
Clayton Stoner (ANA)|Colin Miller (BOS)
Griffin Reinhart (EDM)|Deryk Engelland (UFA) (CGY)
Brayden McNabb (LAK)|Trevor van Riemsdyk (CAR)
Alexei Emelin (MTL)|David Schlemko (SJS)
Jon Merill (NJD)|
Marc Methot (OTT)|
Jason Garrison (TBL)|
Lucas Sbisa (VAN)|
Nate Schmidt (WAS)|
[/table]

Goalies
[table="head]G|G|
Marc-Andre Fleury (PIT)|Calvin Pickard (COL)
J.F. Berube (NYI)|
[/table]

thx Caley, awesome work as usual

 

[Kcoyote3]

Nosek just had a monster season in the AHL as well, and had a monster season in the Czech league before that. He's a good prospect. This hurts the already poor Detroit forward prospect pool more than it hurts Vegas.


The biggest question mark was a 6th rounder not to take Ullmark. That's...ridiculous. Lindberg over Raanta is questionable. Schmidt over Grubauer is a good choice.