Even-strength VsX

[Overrated]

Clarke won 3 Hart trophies. Some against Orr.

Dionme has more point finishes than any of the players you listed from the 90s.

I'd say that's some pretty stiff competition.

They gave him the Harts and maybe he was the most "valuable" player but he was never even close to Orr. Clarke also scored 4 goals in 28 international games (and 8 assists). Dionne was also never a top5 forward in the world and his international resume shows it. He took part in many international competitions and there is absolutely no reason to believe he was ever better than any of the best three Soviet players at any point in his career. He was also never better than prime Esposito, Lafleur or Bossy so he has never even breached not even for one year in his career the top5 forward in the world.

 

[daver]

Combination of Hart trophies (only one), low point totals, lack of dominance by overlapping players outside of Jagr's peak years all lend to the conclusion that his competition wasn't particularly noteworthy.

Can you name the players who qualify as "overlapping" and what you mean by "dominance". Or more specifically, why do you think "the field" got weaker starting in 1994/95?

 

[Pominville Knows]

Can you name the players who qualify as "overlapping" and what you mean by "dominance". Or more specifically, why do you think "the field" got weaker starting in 1994/95?

Is it true that top players were more injured post-95 til the Lost Season?

 

[daver]

Is it true that top players were more injured post-95 til the Lost Season?

Sure, that has been established. But that's not the argument, the argument is that regardless of full seasons being played or not, the competitive field was notably weak.

 

[ImporterExporter]

As requested for the ATD, here's even-strength VsX. I'm posting this here (rather than the ATD forum) as I'm sure there are undrafteds included here.

Disclaimers:

• All the ES numbers were taken from Overpass's spreadsheet, and the yearly benchmarks were taken from Sprague Cleghorn's post. I haven't attempted to confirm/verify any of their information.
• The data only goes back to 1960.
• Each year is normalized to 70.

Results - top 300 ES VsX (1960-2017) - best seven years

1	GRETZKY, WAYNE	111
2	JAGR, JAROMIR	81
3	ESPOSITO, PHIL	75
4	LEMIEUX, MARIO	74
5	HULL, BOBBY	74
6	LAFLEUR, GUY	72
7	MIKITA, STAN	71
8	CROSBY, SIDNEY	70
9	YZERMAN, STEVE	68
10	THORNTON, JOE	68
11	BOSSY, MIKE	67
12	OVECHKIN, ALEX	67
13	SAKIC, JOE	66
14	DIONNE, MARCEL	66
15	KURRI, JARI	66
16	ULLMAN, NORM	66
17	RICHARD, HENRI	65
18	LINDROS, ERIC	65
19	RATELLE, JEAN	65
20	IGINLA, JAROME	65
21	ST. LOUIS, MARTIN	64
22	HOWE, GORDIE	64
23	KANE, PATRICK	64
24	ORR, BOBBY	64
25	TROTTIER, BRYAN	64
26	MAHOVLICH, FRANK	64
27	LECLAIR, JOHN	64
28	BATHGATE, ANDY	64
29	SELANNE, TEEMU	63
30	MALKIN, EVGENI	63
31	ROBITAILLE, LUC	63
32	SEDIN, HENRIK	63
33	OATES, ADAM	62
34	MESSIER, MARK	62
35	STASTNY, PETER	62
36	RECCHI, MARK	61
37	HULL, BRETT	61
38	BUCYK, JOHNNY	60
39	SUNDIN, MATS	60
40	BELIVEAU, JEAN	60
41	BURE, PAVEL	59
42	FORSBERG, PETER	59
43	SEDIN, DANIEL	59
44	GETZLAF, RYAN	59
45	TANGUAY, ALEX	58
46	HODGE, KEN	58
47	CLARKE, BOBBY	58
48	GILBERT, ROD	58
49	HEATLEY, DANY	58
50	HAWERCHUK, DALE	58
51	MODANO, MIKE	58
52	FRANCIS, RON	58
53	DELVECCHIO, ALEX	57
54	FLEURY, THEOREN	57
55	FEDOROV, SERGEI	57
56	STAMKOS, STEVEN	57
57	GILMOUR, DOUG	57
58	SAVARD, DENIS	57
59	DATSYUK, PAVEL	57
60	TURGEON, PIERRE	57
61	SITTLER, DARRYL	57
62	STAAL, ERIC	57
63	KOVALCHUK, ILYA	57
64	GOULET, MICHEL	56
65	SHUTT, STEVE	56
66	SPEZZA, JASON	56
67	WHEELER, BLAKE	56
68	ELIAS, PATRIK	56
69	PERREAULT, GILBERT	56
70	PERRY, COREY	56
71	COFFEY, PAUL	56
72	BENN, JAMIE	56
73	TAVARES, JOHN	55
74	ANDERSON, GLENN	55
75	ROENICK, JEREMY	55
76	LECAVALIER, VINCENT	55
77	ZETTERBERG, HENRIK	55
78	KARIYA, PAUL	55
79	MOGILNY, ALEXANDER	55
80	LEMAIRE, JACQUES	55
81	ALFREDSSON, DANIEL	55
82	TOEWS, JONATHAN	54
83	AMONTE, TONY	54
84	KESSEL, PHIL	54
85	HOSSA, MARIAN	54
86	RIBEIRO, MIKE	54
87	MULLEN, JOE	54
88	TKACHUK, KEITH	54
89	BACKSTROM, NICKLAS	54
90	DEMITRA, PAVOL	53
91	NICHOLLS, BERNIE	53
92	LaFONTAINE, PAT	53
93	CICCARELLI, DINO	53
94	NASH, RICK	53
95	KOPITAR, ANZE	52
96	NASLUND, MARKUS	52
97	PROVOST, CLAUDE	52
98	BACKSTROM, RALPH	52
99	KREJCI, DAVID	52
100	PARISE, ZACH	52
101	DAMPHOUSSE, VINCENT	52
102	FEDERKO, BERNIE	52
103	PROSPAL, VACLAV	52
104	SHANAHAN, BRENDAN	52
105	GABORIK, MARIAN	52
106	HEJDUK, MILAN	52
107	WHARRAM, KENNY	52
108	RICHER, STEPHANE	52
109	ROBERTS, GARY	52
110	YASHIN, ALEXEI	51
111	PRENTICE, DEAN	51
112	OLIVER, MURRAY	51
113	KEON, DAVE	51
114	RICHARDS, BRAD	51
115	WHITNEY, RAY	51
116	GOMEZ, SCOTT	51
117	MURRAY, GLEN	51
118	CASHMAN, WAYNE	51
119	GOYETTE, PHIL	51
120	GARTNER, MIKE	51
121	MARCHAND, BRAD	51
122	SEGUIN, TYLER	51
123	STRAKA, MARTIN	51
124	NYLANDER, MICHAEL	51
125	CARTER, JEFF	51
126	MARUK, DENNIS	51
127	PALFFY, ZIGMUND	50
128	MARTIN, PIT	50
129	BERTUZZI, TODD	50
130	DUCHENE, MATT	50
131	ERIKSSON, LOUI	50
132	MAHOVLICH, PETE	50
133	MCNAB, PETER	50
134	SMITH, BOBBY	50
135	THOMAS, STEVE	50
136	ROUSSEAU, BOBBY	50
137	POMINVILLE, JASON	50
138	VANEK, THOMAS	50
139	BRIND'AMOUR, ROD	50
140	MIDDLETON, RICK	50
141	HALL, TAYLOR	49
142	TAYLOR, DAVE	49
143	PACIORETTY, MAX	49
144	SULLIVAN, STEVE	49
145	BONDRA, PETER	49
146	NIEUWENDYK, JOE	49
147	MARLEAU, PATRICK	49
148	LUCIC, MILAN	49
149	NEDVED, PETR	49
150	BERGERON, PATRICE	49
151	RYAN, BOBBY	49
152	LADD, ANDREW	49
153	PULFORD, BOB	49
154	FERRARO, RAY	48
155	MCDONALD, LANNY	48
156	SAVARD, MARC	48
157	APPS, SYL	48
158	ARNOTT, JASON	48
159	TKACZUK, WALT	48
160	LARMER, STEVE	48
161	NEELY, CAM	48
162	HULL, DENNIS	48
163	GUERIN, BILL	48
164	TONELLI, JOHN	48
165	LAROUCHE, PIERRE	48
166	PRIMEAU, KEITH	48
167	WEIGHT, DOUG	48
168	NEVIN, BOB	48
169	COURTNALL, GEOFF	48
170	STUMPEL, JOZEF	48
171	BRIERE, DANNY	48
172	GIROUX, CLAUDE	48
173	STEVENS, KEVIN	48
174	HAVLAT, MARTIN	48
175	COURNOYER, YVAN	48
176	KOVALEV, ALEXEI	47
177	SYKORA, PETR	47
178	WILLIAMS, JUSTIN	47
179	TOCCHET, RICK	47
180	MULLER, KIRK	47
181	KUNITZ, CHRIS	47
182	PAVELSKI, JOE	47
183	SANDSTROM, TOMAS	47
184	EBERLE, JORDAN	47
185	JOKINEN, OLLI	47
186	MARTIN, RICK	47
187	PROPP, BRIAN	47
188	DOAN, SHANE	47
189	SEMIN, ALEXANDER	47
190	STASTNY, PAUL	47
191	JANNEY, CRAIG	47
192	GAGNE, SIMON	47
193	KELLY, RED	46
194	MACLEISH, RICK	46
195	COURTNALL, RUSS	46
196	UNGER, GARRY	46
197	SATAN, MIROSLAV	46
198	SHARP, PATRICK	46
199	VERBEEK, PAT	46
200	STILLMAN, CORY	46
201	HEXTALL, DENNIS	46
202	GARE, DANNY	46
203	HUNTER, DALE	46
204	ANDREYCHUK, DAVE	46
205	ZHAMNOV, ALEXEI	46
206	LANG, ROBERT	46
207	MACLEAN, JOHN	46
208	HAY, BILL	46
209	LYSIAK, TOM	46
210	RENBERG, MIKAEL	46
211	SMYTH, RYAN	46
212	VORACEK, JAKUB	46
213	HARTNELL, SCOTT	45
214	BROTEN, NEAL	45
215	NASLUND, MATS	45
216	HOLIK, BOBBY	45
217	OLCZYK, ED	45
218	PAPPIN, JIM	45
219	RIDLEY, MIKE	45
220	LINSEMAN, KEN	45
221	KOZLOV, VYACHESLAV	45
222	LUCE, DON	45
223	LANGKOW, DAYMOND	45
224	ROBERT, RENE	45
225	DUMONT, J.P.	44
226	CONROY, CRAIG	44
227	HADFIELD, VIC	44
228	MACLEAN, PAUL	44
229	STASTNY, ANTON	44
230	BACKES, DAVID	44
231	BOURQUE, RAY	44
232	NOLAN, OWEN	44
233	COLE, ERIK	44
234	KEHOE, RICK	44
235	PRONOVOST, JEAN	44
236	STEMKOWSKI, PETE	44
237	PARISE, JEAN-PAUL	44
238	BOLDIREV, IVAN	44
239	HORTON, NATHAN	44
240	REICHEL, ROBERT	44
241	SHEPPARD, RAY	44
242	RAMSAY, CRAIG	44
243	O'REILLY, TERRY	44
244	NEAL, JAMES	44
245	BURROWS, ALEXANDRE	44
246	WILLIAMS, TOMMY	44
247	GOLDSWORTHY, BILL	44
248	BELLOWS, BRIAN	44
249	MORRISON, BRENDAN	44
250	PAIEMENT, WILF	43
251	OGRODNICK, JOHN	43
252	SIMMER, CHARLIE	43
253	KARLSSON, ERIK	43
254	BOYES, BRAD	43
255	BLAKE, JASON	43
256	MCEACHERN, SHAWN	43
257	STEPAN, DEREK	43
258	MACMILLAN, BOB	43
259	KHRISTICH, DMITRI	43
260	RONNING, CLIFF	43
261	MORROW, BRENDEN	43
262	ROY, DEREK	43
263	HUDLER, JIRI	43
264	BARBER, BILL	43
265	VAIVE, RICK	42
266	ELLIS, RON	42
267	BALON, DAVE	42
268	SAMSONOV, SERGEI	42
269	CULLEN, JOHN	42
270	BULLARD, MIKE	42
271	ARMSTRONG, GEORGE	42
272	FOLIGNO, MIKE	42
273	BRUNETTE, ANDREW	42
274	VICKERS, STEVE	42
275	NILSSON, KENT	42
276	POULIN, DAVE	42
277	STANFIELD, FRED	42
278	PEDERSON, BARRY	42
279	CRAVEN, MURRAY	42
280	FOX, JIM	42
281	KERR, TIM	42
282	PLEKANEC, TOMAS	42
283	LEMIEUX, CLAUDE	42
284	TREMBLAY, MARIO	41
285	TIKKANEN, ESA	41
286	GILLIES, CLARK	41
287	KESLER, RYAN	41
288	DUPUIS, PASCAL	41
289	BERENSON, RED	41
290	LEACH, REGGIE	41
291	ERAT, MARTIN	41
292	COUTURE, LOGAN	41
293	KOIVU, MIKKO	41
294	STEEN, THOMAS	41
295	GELINAS, MARTIN	41
296	KRUSHELNYSKI, MIKE	41
297	BOUDRIAS, ANDRE	41
298	LANGENBRUNNER, JAMIE	41
299	FILPPULA, VALTTERI	41
300	LITTLE, BRYAN	41

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Gretzky is off the charts (even more dominant when looking just as ES, compared to looking at total offense).

Defensemen look much worse compared to the overall VsX summary. Coffey, Bourque and Karlsson are the only blueliners in the top 300. Most (all?) of Kelly's time from 1960 onwards was as a forward.

Henri Richard looks superb according to this metric (perhaps the strongest proof of his excellent ES scoring and limited powerplay time?) Joe Thornton also looks better than I thought.

Hall of Famer Dave Andreychuk is out of the 200, behind luminaries like Garry Unger, Miro Satan and Dennis Hextall.

HO, do you happen to have updated #'s for ES scoring? Just wondering where some of the active guys like McDavid and Kucherov would stand.

Thanks!

 

[Hockey Outsider]

HO, do you happen to have updated #'s for ES scoring? Just wondering where some of the active guys like McDavid and Kucherov would stand.

Thanks!

Unfortuantely I haven't been updating this because the data's in a different format, and it's a huge pain to try to consolidate all the information.

A quick calculation for McDavid:

Season	McDavid	Benchmark	Result
2017​	71​	66​	75
2018​	84​	64​	92
2019​	81​	80​	71
2020​	54​	66​	57
2021​	68​	51​	93
2022​	78​	77​	71
2023​	43​	43​	70

I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) the benchmark is 2nd place for 2017, 2019, 2020, and 2023 (so far), and 3rd place for 2018, 2021, and 2022. Your call on how to treat the currently-in-progress 2023 season. If we assume McDavid ends up roughly where he's currently at, his seven year ES VsX is 76 - higher than anyone from 1960-today except for Gretzky and Esposito.

And a quick calculation for Kucherov:

Season	Kucherov	Benchmark	Result
2015​	50​	59​	59
2016​	41​	59​	49
2017​	53​	66​	56
2018​	64​	64​	70
2019​	80​	80​	70
2020​	60​	66​	64
2023​	42​	43​	68

Taking 2023 as is, he ends up with 62 - right around the level of Selanne, Malkin, Messier, Stastny, and Beliveau. Last season was actually on pace to be his best but he missed almost half the year.

It's late and I'm tired, so if anyone sees any errors, let me know.