European Hockey (pre-Summit Series)

[MaxV]

I apologize if a thread like this exists, but I have been wondering about this topic.

It is often perceived that the starting point of the European hockey legitimacy is 1972, not only the SS but also the solid performance by the Swedes vs pros.

This brings up a question regarding the level of Euro hockey pre 1972. When did the boom period start? How good were players before this period?

I mean that 72 Soviet team wasn't all that young, with a number of players that had experience in the 60s. Not to mention that, from what I understand, the SS was suppose to take place years prior 72.

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[Theokritos]

If you take a look at Canada's achievements at the World Championships from 1948 (first participation after WWII) to 1969 (last participation until 1977), one notices a drop-off from 1962 on. Prior to that, the Canadians won eight gold medals in 12 tournaments. From 1962 on however, they were not able to win a gold medal anymore.

1948: Won.
1949: 2nd behind Czechoslovakia.
1950: Won.
1951: Won.
1952: Won.
(1953: Did not participate.)
1954: 2nd behind Soviet Union.
1955: Won.
1956: 3rd behind Soviet Union and United States.
(1957: Did not participate.)
1958: Won.
1959: Won.
1960: 2nd behind United States.
1961: Won.
1962: 2nd behind Sweden.
1963: 4th behind the USSR, Sweden and Czechoslovakia.
1964: 4th behind the USSR, Sweden and Czechoslovakia.
1965: 4th behind the USSR, Czechoslovakia and Sweden.
1966: 3rd behind the USSR and Czechoslovakia.
1967: 3rd behind the USSR and Sweden.
1968: 3rd behind the USSR and Czechoslovakia.
1969: 4th behind the USSR, Czechoslovakia and Sweden.

This seems to suggest that the top European teams surpassed the level of what Canada was able to send to the WHC in the first half of the 1960s.

The start of the Soviet dominance on the international level also coincided with (and maybe partially caused?) a domestic boom:

As of 1957, eleven years after the introduction of Canadian ice hockey in the USSR, the annual production of hockey sticks in the Soviet Union added up to 194,000 (bandy sticks: 256,000). In 1963 a sports factory was set up in Moscow, producing 500,000 hockey sticks per year and ensuring mass participatory hockey in the capital.

Mass participation
Resting on the loose institutionalized framework established by the Hockey Section, the city tournaments increased in popularity, and competitions began to be organized at regional levels... in 1964 the system of tournaments according to simplified rules evolved into a nation-wide children and youth tournament knows as the Golden Puck... regional winners played city championships; city champions competed for provincial/republican titles and republican champions proceeded to play at the national level... (...) By the mid-1960's children as young as eight would be trained in schools directly affiliated to a leading elite team, providing the nation's elite program with a steady supply of new recruits.

 

[MaxV]

What kind of teams was Canada sending? I know the word "amatures" gets associated with 50s and 60s international Canada teams, but with only 6 NHL teams, how many pros were there?

 

[Killion]

What kind of teams was Canada sending? I know the word "amatures" gets associated with 50s and 60s international Canada teams, but with only 6 NHL teams, how many pros were there?

Mostly Senior A teams, guys who'd spent their entire careers in the low minors, maybe one or two having had a cup of coffee with an NHL team years earlier... mid-to-late 60's you had Father David Bauers' Canadian National Team program, former Juniors who went on to University (including Ken Dryden - outlier Carl Brewer, whole other story who after quitting the Leafs fought to have his amateur status reinstated) rather than turning pro if they even had that option. The Soviets held considerable sway with the IIHF & WC organizers, barring any professional players from Canada from competing despite the fact that they themselves were completely professional training 11mnths of the year but with "military" designations, that their "hockey duties" were "part-time", subservient, secondary to their "military duties. The Soviets propagandized sport. A moral victory over the West. That their system, politically, socially etc was superior. Sports fields, the ice replacing battlefields... This situation needless to say caused a lot of anger amongst the Canadian hockey fraternities. That the Soviets had "tilted the playing surface" and fact is, they had, did. Winning was everything. The Soviets in the early 50's actually bowing out of some Tournaments when Tarasov couldnt "guarantee a victory". This is one of the main reasons why the 72 Summit Series was so widely anticipated, generated so much enthusiasm. That finally after all those years of the Soviets having thoroughly dominated teams of Canadians staffed by Has Been's & Never Were's Canada would finally get a chance to put them in their place with an All Star All Pro line-up. Of course by then the Soviets truly were a Hockey Superpower and we all know what happened.... Euro hockey, the elite leagues and WC's etc, main two combatants were the Czechs vs the USSR. And some amazing hockey played. Czechs absolutely outstanding at the Defensive Game, built specifically to stop the Soviets. And it transcended just hockey, sport. Some serious hate goin on there. Ditto with the Swedes & Finns vs each other & both vs the Soviets but it took their hockey programs some time to catch up.

 

[Killion]

One of the obstacles early Soviet hockey had to deal with was the shortage of equipment like hockey sticks, especially quality sticks that didn't easily break. Existing production sites in Lviv (Ukraine), Riga (Latvia) and Tallinn (Estonia) were ordered to reduce their output of bandy sticks in favour of sticks suited for "puck hockey". As of 1957, eleven years after the introduction of Canadian ice hockey in the USSR, the annual production of hockey sticks in the Soviet Union added up to 194,000 (bandy sticks: 256,000). In 1963 a sports factory was set up in Moscow, producing 500,000 hockey sticks per year and ensuring mass participatory hockey in the capital.

Further development of annual production in the USSR: 1970: 3,709,000 hockey sticks. 1980: 10,576,000 hockey sticks.

Interesting. Do you know of what quality they were & was there a brand name? Did they export? Import higher quality for the elite league & teams? Partnership maybe with say Koho or Torspo or one of the Scandinavian mfgs?

Poorer than the sticks NHL players used. When abroad Soviet players were always keen on getting their hands on foreign equipment. Harder (p.83): "photographs of elite league Soviet players from the 1960's on show them playing with foreign made Jofa, Koho and CCM sticks."

According to Harder one of the task Soviet assistant coaches had when their team was on tour abroad was to ask their foreign opponents whether they had sticks to spare. So there's that kind of "import", in the early days at least, but I don't know anything about any partnership or mass import.

This latter paragraph.... it became the norm by the mid 70's for not only the Red Army, Moscow Selects etc but so too the Junior travelling teams from the old Soviet Union to include "riders" in their agreements with Canadian (and some American) teams & leagues / organizers that sticks & equipment be "provided" as from a mfg & supply chain, the Soviets woefully inadequate, sub-standard, inferior to that produced in the West, even from Scandinavia.... not dissimilar to say... a bands Backstage Rider... like The Pretenders, Chrissie Hynde... "totally vegetarian... require Tartex Vegetarian Pate' by the BUCKET... and if you dont know where to get it we'll tell you... also... acid free totally organic Cranberry Juice.... 25 gallons please".... meanwhile she's going through like 4 drummers in the space of a decade, all dying of drug overdoses & misadventure... unaware of anything similar from the La's Theo. Never did live up to their early press as "the next Beatles"... dunno... coupla 12 packs of Swans? King Kans? And Pall Malls. Carton... Now just imagine the Soviets of the 50's & 60's with really good equipment that we here in North America took for granted?... instead, they turned it around, flipped it over like Jimmy Hendrix.... a natural Lefty who was forced to play Right Handed by his father Joe who thought anyone playing Lefty was The Spawn of Satan, not of his own loins see? So Jimmy became ambidextrous. Played Righty for Papa or faced a Hell of a Beating while throughout his career, publicly, played Lefty. Wasnt even until late in his career that he even owned a Lefty configured lectric geetar.

 

[Theokritos]

What kind of teams was Canada sending? I know the word "amatures" gets associated with 50s and 60s international Canada teams, but with only 6 NHL teams, how many pros were there?

A few of them were former or future NHL players. Some actually turned down NHL offers because they made more money working a regular job (Seth Martin, the best goaltender in international hockey prior to Tretiak) or because they preferred to finish their education (Ken Dryden in 1968). But the majority of the Canadian representatives were certaintly a step or two below NHL level.

By the way, in 1968 the two Canadian national team heads David Bauer and Jackie McLeod were asked by a Czechoslovak journalist for a comparison between the Soviet national team and two NHL clubs, Chicago and Boston. Here's what they said:

Physical preparation
McLeod: "The Soviet players have a more well-rounded training, especially when it comes to strength. Boston 3 points, USSR 5 points."
Bauer: "The advantage of the Soviet team is that it pays special attention to training in the off-season, the players are involved in hockey all-year round. Chicago 3.5 points, USSR 5 points."

Skating
McLeod: "The average level of the professionals is higher. Bobby Orr, for example, has an incredible acceleration. [Veniamin] Aleksandrov skates more elegantly. Boston 5 points, USSR 3 points."
Bauer: "The Soviet players are stronger on their skates, but personally I would put Bobby Hull at the top. The players of the Canadian national team who appeared in Grenoble are stronger on their skates than the third line of Chicago. Thus, Chicago 4 points, USSR 4 points."

Puck control
McLeod (without hesitation): "They're on par. Esposito and Firsov are exemplary. Boston 4 points, USSR 4 points."
Bauer (after much deliberation): "The two teams play different styles. For the professionals the main principle is to shoot, hammer the puck ahead and put pressure on the goaltender. The Soviet team focuses on buildup and puck possession. Both are good at what they're doing. I don't acknowledge the notion that the Soviets play a mechanical game. Only the Montreal Canadiens are able to combine those two styles. Chicago 4 points, USSR 4.5 points."

Shooting
McLeod: "The professionals shoot more often, harder and more accurate. Boston 5 points, USSR 2 points."
Bauer: "The NHL has 15 players who are fantastic shooters, but that's all. Two years ago I would have said Chicago 5 points, USSR 2 points, today I say Chicago 5 points, USSR 3.5 points."

Passing
McLeod: "The professionals pass less often but they're effective. The Soviet players pass around a lot. Almetov and Starshinov are true kings of the pass. Boston 4 points, USSR 4 points."
Bauer: "The Soviet players can pass in many ways and they're more accurate. The professionals often give the puck away because they often take risks. Chicago 4.5 points, USSR 5 points."

Physical game
McLeod: "The professionals are more experienced in this, the only thing the Soviets do better is their pressing. Ragulin has ideal qualities for the physical game. Boston 5 points, USSR 3 points."
Bauer: "True, among the Soviet players are a few who don't like the game with the body. That's not the case among the professionals. Nevertheless, Chicago 4.5 points, USSR 4.5 points."

Goaltending
McLeod: "No contest. Boston 5 points, USSR 3 points."
Bauer: "All professional goaltenders are great players. Chicago 5 points, USSR 3.5 points."

Power play
McLeod: "The Soviets excell in choice of position and passing. Boston 3 points, USSR 4 points."
Bauer: "I don't see a difference. Both still have room to improve. Chicago 3.5 points, USSR 3.5 points."

Penalty killing
McLeod: "The NHL has more players proficient in holding the puck. The Soviets defend more actively. Boston 3 points, USSR 3 points."
Bauer: "It all comes down to luck. Chicago 3.5 points, USSR 3.5 points."

Defensive play
McLeod: "The pros have great goalies. The forwards don't help the defencemen as much. In general, the NHL teams defend better. Boston 4 points, USSR 3 points."
Bauer: "I'm not taking goaltenders into account. The pros get paid for goals, therefore Chicago, for example, can't win the cup. The Soviet team defends more as a collective. Chicago 4 points, USSR 5 points."

Offensive play
McLeod: "Hard to answer. The pros shoot more often, but the Soviet players are better at creating shooting positions for each other. It all depends on the defencemen and the goalkeeper. Boston 4 points, USSR 3 points."
Bauer: "I've expressed my opinion on this one before. Hull and Mikita are superstars. Chicago 5 points, USSR 3.5 points."

Overall play
McLeod: "I think the game of the pros is more efficient. The Soviet team is well organized. In addition it's getting stronger from year to year. There are more and more players of the type of Almetov, Firsov and Polupanov. If we take this into account I would go with a draw. Both sides contribute to the world of hockey. Boston 4 points, USSR 4 points."
Bauer: "Each has their own qualities. It would be difficult for the players to play on the team of the opponent. In my opinion the only Soviet players who wouldn't be at loss [when switching to an NHL team] would be Firsov and Starshinov. Chicago 5 points, USSR 5 points."

 

[Theokritos]

.... meanwhile she's going through like 4 drummers in the space of a decade, all dying of drug overdoses & misadventure... unaware of anything similar from the La's Theo. Never did live up to their early press as "the next Beatles"...

Lee Mavers, the lead singer, basically went through 4 entire bands (~20 guitarists, bassists and drummers) in less than a decade and through 4 renowned producers over the course of recording just one album. When their company finally had enough and published the latest version of the LP to critical acclaim but without the consent of Mavers, he quit and that was the end of the La's.

But ... we're getting slightly off topic.

 

[MaxV]

My question still remains, what was the level of Canadian team if there were only 6 NHL clubs?

I mean there are about 700 (I'm guessing) Canadian players in NHL right now and some skilled pros in Europe. If you were to just take the very best away to 6 rosters, there would still be plenty left. Now, I do seem to remember reading that there were other pro leagues in NA other then NHL, on a smaller scale.

Now, I don't know the landscape of hockey development in Canada in the 50s and 60s, perhaps it was on a smaller scale.

 

[Killion]

My question still remains, what was the level of Canadian team if there were only 6 NHL clubs?

I mean there are about 700 (I'm guessing) Canadian players in NHL right now and some skilled pros in Europe. If you were to just take the very best away to 6 rosters, there would still be plenty left. Now, I do seem to remember reading that there were other pro leagues in NA other then NHL, on a smaller scale.

Now, I don't know the landscape of hockey development in Canada in the 50s and 60s, perhaps it was on a smaller scale.

Canada sent University and later on Senior A Clubs to World Championships through the 50's & early 60's. From the mid-60's on, Father David Bauer, formerly the head of hockey with St. Michaels College in Toronto which produced a considerable number of NHL'rs with their Jr.A (Majors) & Jr.B (Buzzers) programs which were sponsored in part by the Toronto Maple Leafs left St.Mikes, Bauer then moved to UBC in Vancouver and established a National Team Program when St.Michaels left the OHA in the late 50's early 60's.

The quality or caliber of the players on the Senior Teams, like the Whitby Dunlops for example in todays parlance or comparatively speaking would be about on par with Canadian University Hockey only you'd have a wider range of ages on the old Senior A Teams rosters. These were guys who maybe didnt go on to even a minor pro career after Junior, went to work or to University. The Canadian Ntl Team under Father David Bauer consisting of former Juniors who went on to University in Canada or the US, like an All Star team of the top players from across Canada, be they from the UofT Blues, Western Mustangs or whatever. The odd guy who was born & raised in Canada but was on a scholarship playing NCAA Div 1 as was the case with Dryden out of Cornell.

Senior Hockey in Canada was extremely popular right across the country for most of the late 19th & 20th Centuries. Teams playing out of smaller centers like Vernon in BC, Saskatoon & so on. In Quebec, you had the QSHL whereby like elsewhere the players all retained their "amateur status" and were thus eligible to play in International Events as the IIHF had barred the use of "professionals". Most of the Senior A players had day jobs, working in a plant, Fireman, Milkman or whatever, worked in the team sponsored mill etc. Money wasnt the greatest in the NHL back in the day nor in the minors, you had no control over where you might wind up so for a lot of them, Senior ideal as they could earn a steady income, more than theyd make in the NHL or Minors, control where they played, raise a family without interruptions.....

I think maybe where your getting tripped up is in not realizing (I explained above) that IIHF rules forbade the US or Canada or anyone who had played pro or was currently playing pro from competing. The Soviets got away with it as they claimed all of their players were amateurs as they were all conscripted into the Military holding various ranks, full time soldiers, part time players when in fact the opposite was really the case. In blocking the use of pro's the Soviets were able to hedge their odds in facing weaker competition, winning, and that of course the name of the game. Moral victories over the West. Meanwhile under Tarasov & others, they created a sort of super hothouse of home grown talent who for 11mnths of the year were in training, playing in the Soviet Elite League, playing in internationals, Olympic games & so on.

 

[MaxV]

I'm not tripping up on it, I'm acknowledging it. That's not the point. My point is to gage the level of European hockey pre SS. After SS it becomes easier, since that tournament opened up doors to other similar events where top European players could prove themselves on highest level.

The assumption is that European hockey grew by leaps and bounds since SS and that is the point that is being used. As a result, guys like Firsov, Tumba, Bobrov, Alexandrov are just considered to be big fishes in small pounds. Perhaps they were, but just how big of a fishes were they? As I've stated before, that Soviet team wasn't all that young. And their careers overlapped the 60s.

The whole reason that tournament took place to begin with was because guys like Firsov, Alexandrov just owned the entire decade.

 

[Sentinel]

I'm not tripping up on it, I'm acknowledging it. That's not the point. My point is to gage the level of European hockey pre SS. After SS it becomes easier, since that tournament opened up doors to other similar events where top European players could prove themselves on highest level.

The assumption is that European hockey grew by leaps and bounds since SS and that is the point that is being used. As a result, guys like Firsov, Tumba, Bobrov, Alexandrov are just considered to be big fishes in small pounds. Perhaps they were, but just how big of a fishes were they? As I've stated before, that Soviet team wasn't all that young. And their careers overlapped the 60s.

The whole reason that tournament took place to begin with was because guys like Firsov, Alexandrov just owned the entire decade.

I'd say Starshinov and Ragulin were definitely on par with anybody in the NHL. Most likely Boris Mayorov, Loktev, Almetov, and Vikulov too.

 

[MaxV]

BTW Killion, not all Soviet players were in the Army, only players from CSKA and SKA teams.

Other clubs had their own affiliations. Spartak was workers union, Dynamo was police, Torpedo was automobile industry, Krylia Sovetov was airplane industry, Lokomotiv was train industry, etc.

 

[pappyline]

What kind of teams was Canada sending? I know the word "amatures" gets associated with 50s and 60s international Canada teams, but with only 6 NHL teams, how many pros were there?

Killion has explained the calibre of teams that represented Canada in the 50's & 60's. Basically they were Senior A club teams for most of the this period. Pros were not allowed although there was the odd one that became a reinstated amateur. Besides the NHL there were many minor pro leagues at the time such as the AHL, WHL, Central etc, etc. These teams were all mainly stocked with Canadian players who weren't deemed eligible to play for the Canadian National team. There was easily in excess of 500 Canadians that couldn't be used. Of course there was the odd Senior A player who played at the Senior level by choice instead of playing minor pro.

It actually quite incredible how well the Canadian team competed against the Russian professionals during the 50's & 60's considering how much of the Canadian talent pool was off limits.

 

[Killion]

BTW Killion, not all Soviet players were in the Army, only players from CSKA and SKA teams.

Other clubs had their own affiliations. Spartak was workers union, Dynamo was police, Torpedo was automobile industry, Krylia Sovetov was airplane industry, Lokomotiv was train industry, etc.

... yeah, thanks Max. I was aware the teams in the old Soviet Elite League were setup by profession/trade/sponsor but not familiar with the specifics by team, and yes I am aware that not all players who played under the CCCP & Red Army Banners were military. Never really delved into the structure a whole lot. Much of that history while written & well documented in Russian has yet to be translated, some still to be written. Really quite fascinating.

It actually quite incredible how well the Canadian team competed against the Russian professionals during the 50's & 60's considering how much of the Canadian talent pool was off limits.

Yeah, and perhaps best illustrated by Goalie Seth Martin & the Sr. A Trail Smoke Eaters (Seths full time job was not surprisingly that of a Firefighter along with many of his teammates) of the late 50's & early 60's. They won the WC's in 61, Martin the "idol" of Tretiak & many other Russian & European Goalies. Went on to play with Trail in 3 more WC's & for Team Canada at the Olympics. Very influential but of course in North America, just a very good Senior Amateur (though he did later go on to play 1yr in the NHL - also made Glenn Halls first mask when playing Backup with the Blues). I recall reading an interview whereby he described how he played against the Russians, why he was successful, essentially saying that "they never shot from where they should have shot, they just kept passing so I played goal the way your not supposed to and followed the tic-tac-toe without really moving at all deep in the crease & waited them out".... words to that affect. Just played it patient. As we saw in 72 if you chased them or as the goalie you played it high up in the crease, Stand-Up as Dryden did theyd get in behind you, wide open net. What they were playing to, planning to achieve. Forget beating a goalie on a shot just keep passing, pass-pass-pass-pass in a mind numbing game of cycle. Tarasov School. If the other team passes 50X's in a game, we'll pass 100 times. Kept statistics on it. Every single player. Collectively. All very scientific. Measured.

 

[Zine]

Killion has explained the calibre of teams that represented Canada in the 50's & 60's. Basically they were Senior A club teams for most of the this period. Pros were not allowed although there was the odd one that became a reinstated amateur. Besides the NHL there were many minor pro leagues at the time such as the AHL, WHL, Central etc, etc. These teams were all mainly stocked with Canadian players who weren't deemed eligible to play for the Canadian National team. There was easily in excess of 500 Canadians that couldn't be used. Of course there was the odd Senior A player who played at the Senior level by choice instead of playing minor pro.

It actually quite incredible how well the Canadian team competed against the Russian professionals during the 50's & 60's considering how much of the Canadian talent pool was off limits.

Hmm.. maybe.
Keep in mind by the late 1950s our program was a mere 10 years removed from a bunch of bandy and soccer players learning the game for the first time.

What I find more incredible his how astronomically fast we went from this:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YOGqaXDi5I to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z34w_w6pHUg. I'd say the super acceleration started by, say, '64.