Player Discussion Ethan Bear: It's a Bear Market

XXIV97

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Wont dive into the analytics debate too much. But I will pose the question about why its only "advanced stats" that need scrutiny and questioning. Why do people just assume their "eye test" is infallible?

-Even if you watch every Oiler game, there are 10 skaters on the ice at one time, all with a fast pace of play and multiple variables going on. If you watch any play back multiple times, you can come away with a completely different evaluation of the play/players. Who can say they actually will rewatch games multiple times to do this? we all watch games in real time, we are all subject to the same limiations

-Also even if you watch every game, every person is biased in many ways. Some people love rough and tumble players, so if a player makes a big hit- they will come away loving that player, even if it means overlooking (subconsciously) many not-so-good plays. The biggest thing is probably many people overweigh point totals (even if they do not like advanced stats). It is always interesting watching a player have a extremely high s% stretch, and then looking at HF or twitter and watching all the fans fall in love with this player and essentially invent narratives why hes so good and will keep this up

-Lastly- the casual fans probably watches only their team for the full game, plus maybe bits and pieces of other games each night. Yet, despite probably watching 5% of the total NHL games per season, will have strong opinions about players on other teams

To me, the "eye test" has gone far too long without being questioned. It shouldn't be "analytics are wrong, its doesnt agree to my eye". It should be "what I am I possibly missing in my evaluations"
Sometimes I don't even watch the game with 50% of my attention since I end up doing other things.
 

PerformanceMcOil

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A stat that shows what happens when a player is on the ice need not explain why that event occurred and to cite its failure to do something it is not designed to do is ridiculous.

True, which is why corsi is so valuable, right? It is only used to describe exactly what occurs on the ice? No interpretation? Nothing about how it is a 'proxie' for something? No huge line of stats based on it and its ilk? Never used to say 'player X is better than player Y, cause corsi'? Only used as a team-based stat, since that is where its efficacy has been best 'proven'?

Right?
 

CycloneSweep

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True, which is why corsi is so valuable, right? It is only used to describe exactly what occurs on the ice? No interpretation? Nothing about how it is a 'proxie' for something? No huge line of stats based on it and its ilk? Never used to say 'player X is better than player Y, cause corsi'? Only used as a team-based stat, since that is where its efficacy has been best 'proven'?

Right?
It's funny. Corsi was created to help compare goalie work load. Cause shots only ever showed the ones the goalie actually managed to get a hand on, didn't count all the work the goalies had to do but the shot ended up just going wide, tipped at the last minute etc. It was then changed to be what it is now
 
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McCombo

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because he is a damn good player cause I watch him

I don't need analytics to tell me that lol
Okay, if damn good players do things on the ice that make their on ice numbers look good. Why wouldn't you trust those numbers when we talk about these "tweeners" which someone see as useful players and some don't. They must be doing a lot of good things if their on ice numbers are good. And I think that especially applies to defensemen. It is lot easier to figure out good forwards by just watching games. But it is lot harder for average fan to pay attention to little things like good gap control (I have rarely seen a Dmen get standing ovation for forcing opponent to dumb the puck) or even get a one post in game thread here. Or for another tiny details. But for example big hits usually gets a reaction and multiple posts.

If you get possession of the by either one that is a good play. But the another one goes unnoticed by 99,9% fans.
 

McCombo

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Wont dive into the analytics debate too much. But I will pose the question about why its only "advanced stats" that need scrutiny and questioning. Why do people just assume their "eye test" is infallible?

-Even if you watch every Oiler game, there are 10 skaters on the ice at one time, all with a fast pace of play and multiple variables going on. If you watch any play back multiple times, you can come away with a completely different evaluation of the play/players. Who can say they actually will rewatch games multiple times to do this? we all watch games in real time, we are all subject to the same limiations

-Also even if you watch every game, every person is biased in many ways. Some people love rough and tumble players, so if a player makes a big hit- they will come away loving that player, even if it means overlooking (subconsciously) many not-so-good plays. The biggest thing is probably many people overweigh point totals (even if they do not like advanced stats). It is always interesting watching a player have a extremely high s% stretch, and then looking at HF or twitter and watching all the fans fall in love with this player and essentially invent narratives why hes so good and will keep this up

-Lastly- the casual fans probably watches only their team for the full game, plus maybe bits and pieces of other games each night. Yet, despite probably watching 5% of the total NHL games per season, will have strong opinions about players on other teams

To me, the "eye test" has gone far too long without being questioned. It shouldn't be "analytics are wrong, its doesnt agree to my eye". It should be "what I am I possibly missing in my evaluations"
I feel exatcly same way. Used to laugh at the these things but when I started to pay attention I found them very interesting and useful.

From bettors perspective it is even more clear that numbers are really important. There is no room for your own conclusions if they aren't backed by numbers. Like Aceboogie said numbers give you a lot easier way to analyze every team and every player without having to watch every teams every game and even if you do watch "eye-test" has many more limitations. Stats or the model I trust aren't perfect but I can assure that I understand better than most here how teams stack up against each other. If my estimations would be way off I would lose money instead of win (it is a very small percentage that wins from betting, though I am not professional. Those guys fight in very different weigth class than me).

My point of view to NHL are mainly from numbers eventhough I watch a lot of Oiler games, but unfortunately I don't have time to watch a lot other teams. But I keep myself updated almost every day how teams and players have performed. Also I have a lot less results based feelings or opinions. In small sample sizes randomness is a huge factor. And there quite a bit of randomness even in a full season. If I remember correctly when the Flames had a great season maybe 4-6 years ago they had very high winning % in one goal games for example.

This year Rangers have 0.553 p%, Flyers have 0.533 p%, but their goal differentials are from different planet. Rangers are +27, while Flyers are -33. Very unlikely scenario. And eventhough these teams are very close in standings the model I trust and betting market agrees that Rangers are clearly a stronger team. 62.6 vs 37.4 was last nights probability and closing odds were 1.6 vs 2.49 (don't know do you guys use decimal odds there in Canada). But when you turn those odds to probabilities they are 62.5 and 40.1. So very much in the same ball park.
 
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McCombo

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Okay and how much of that is on the group of forwards in front of him?
Pinning GF numbers on defenders is hard as they rarely drive the offense. If you look at teams that have defenders that have good GF% on their defenders, they are teams that are very good and deep at forward.

Look at Brayden Coburn, guy isn't a good player but last year in Tampa, he had a positive goal for differential. Was it cause he is good at moving the puck and was good offensively? No. He isn't, but the forwards on that team were great offensively.

Let's look at this for example. Over the past 3 seasons we have a total of 9 players with 50%+ goal differential.

Yamamoto, Benning, Draisaitl, McDavid, Enis, Barrie, Sekera, Nuge and Russell. 5 forwards total.

The offense in this team outside of a few forwards is non existent so why are we knocking Larsson for that? Doesn't matter how good an offensive threat a defender is if the forwards suck.
Let's look at purely defensive stats when Larsson is on the ice compared to fellow regular defenders in the league (minimum 300 minutes)
*These are his rankings*

Corsi Against 127
Fenwick Against 31
Shots Against 43
Goals Against 79
xGA 43
Scoring Chances 155
High Danger Chances 74
High Danger Goals Against 44

So looking at defensive numbers solely, Larsson is doing extremely well.

His offensive numbers aren't great but let's look at the guys he plays with most...
This season Larsson has played 745 minutes 5v5
He has played 383 without any of Nuge, McDavid and Draisaitl on the ice. He spends half of his ice time with our shitty players, and that's when McDavid and Drai often play almost half the game. That's massive

Away from the trio he has a 1.28 xGF and a 1.82 xGA. 41.30% xGF, 34.78% GF

Ethan Bear for example, who you are championing as one of our best defenders? 1.36xGF, 2.08 xGA without any of the trio. 39.57% xGF, 46.15% GF

Darnell Nurse? 1.48 xGF, 2.74x GA 35.09% xGF, 33.33% GF

Nurse and Bear COMBINE FOR 6:34 a game on average away from Nuge, McDavid and Draisaitl, Larsson does 8:30 on his own.

So even looking at advanced stats, Larsson's inability to push offense is really almost no different than any other defender on this team when he plays with 50% of this teams forwards. He just gets far less McDrai time.

TLDR: Remove our top 3 guys from all our defenders play and Larsson is right there with them in GF%. Larsson plays the most minutes per game away from our stars' and still manages to put up very solid defensive stats and like ALL our defenders, struggles to put up good offensive ones with forwards who aren't good offensively. Who knew. Goals for stats are heavily influenced by the forwards and goals against heavily influenced by defenders for the most part. Larsson is a very very very solid defensive player this year, period
But Bear's GF% is 46.15 with plugs and while Larsson has 34.78. Screw xG%, right?. So this time it is Bear making the goalie look better behind him. I can do this too :)

Seriously though even without glimpsing towards any numbers I have always thought that play skill with skill and plugs with plugs (thinking more about skill with the puck). I have played multiple team sports all my life and it is painful to play with players who can't think the game at same level as you. Try to get puck-movers on the ice with 97 & 29 more to get everything out of them and then hope that Larsson and co can at least somehow limit the bleeding while bottom 6 is on the ice.

And if you are interested about the Game Score numbers for Oilers and few other teams I posted them yesterday at "Few thoughts" thread.
 

CycloneSweep

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But Bear's GF% is 46.15 with plugs and while Larsson has 34.78. Screw xG%, right?. So this time it is Bear making the goalie look better behind him. I can do this too :)

Seriously though even without glimpsing towards any numbers I have always thought that play skill with skill and plugs with plugs (thinking more about skill with the puck). I have played multiple team sports all my life and it is painful to play with players who can't think the game at same level as you. Try to get puck-movers on the ice with 97 & 29 more to get everything out of them and then hope that Larsson and co can at least somehow limit the bleeding while bottom 6 is on the ice.

And if you are interested about the Game Score numbers for Oilers and few other teams I posted them yesterday at "Few thoughts" thread.
I mean I'm not disagreeing that you should play skill with skill.
But saying Larsson sucks because his offensive numbers aren't good when like, every defender, even our good ones have bad offensive numbers away from our big 3 is kind of silly. If our forwards weren't mostly a collection of 4th liners and lower, Larsson's numbers would be much better offensively. Put Larsson on a contender in a second pairing role he would fit great and have better numbers.
 
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Ol' Jase

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What variables are missing, specifically?

In terms of pure statistical analysis, the lack of an accounting for the variance in number of events measured (n-count in statistical terms) is a pretty huge one.

In terms of on-ice situations, the mere concept that 10 people are weighted the same result that the action of one, maybe two people are responsible for generating is extremely problematic on a large scale when dealing with individual assessment.
 
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Ol' Jase

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I feel exatcly same way. Used to laugh at the these things but when I started to pay attention I found them very interesting and useful.

From bettors perspective it is even more clear that numbers are really important. There is no room for your own conclusions if they aren't backed by numbers. Like Aceboogie said numbers give you a lot easier way to analyze every team and every player without having to watch every teams every game and even if you do watch "eye-test" has many more limitations. Stats or the model I trust aren't perfect but I can assure that I understand better than most here how teams stack up against each other. If my estimations would be way off I would lose money instead of win (it is a very small percentage that wins from betting, though I am not professional. Those guys fight in very different weigth class than me).

My point of view to NHL are mainly from numbers eventhough I watch a lot of Oiler games, but unfortunately I don't have time to watch a lot other teams. But I keep myself updated almost every day how teams and players have performed. Also I have a lot less results based feelings or opinions. In small sample sizes randomness is a huge factor. And there quite a bit of randomness even in a full season. If I remember correctly when the Flames had a great season maybe 4-6 years ago they had very high winning % in one goal games for example.

This year Rangers have 0.553 p%, Flyers have 0.533 p%, but their goal differentials are from different planet. Rangers are +27, while Flyers are -33. Very unlikely scenario. And eventhough these teams are very close in standings the model I trust and betting market agrees that Rangers are clearly a stronger team. 62.6 vs 37.4 was last nights probability and closing odds were 1.6 vs 2.49 (don't know do you guys use decimal odds there in Canada). But when you turn those odds to probabilities they are 62.5 and 40.1. So very much in the same ball park.

But you are specifically talking about team analysis through the metrics, which is substantially more useful due to so many variables being accounted for. That’s the point most of us are trying to explain to you.

And, yeah, sorry, but assertions based upon comparing one player to another in terms of usefulness based on a single metric is absolutely an opinion. The “I know more than most people do because I always look at the numbers” is a nice way of saying “if you don’t agree with my assessments, you just don’t understand the way stats work.”
 
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Little Fury

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In terms of pure statistical analysis, the lack of an accounting for the variance in number of events measured (n-count in statistical terms) is a pretty huge one.

In terms of in-ice situations, the mere concept that 10 people are weighted the same result that the action of one, maybe two people are responsible for generating is extremely problematic on a large scale when dealing with individual assessment

What specific variables does one need to account for when presenting a statistic that shows what happens when a given player is on the ice? How do those variables impact that number? Again, the intent isn't necessarily to assign responsibility or lay blame, but to show, as much as possible, what happens when a player is on the ice which, combined with other measures (such as how other players do without them) can provide some insight as to who is doing what out there. Over a big enough sample those variables will smooth out and you're going to glean some useful information from what's left.
 

PerformanceMcOil

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It's funny. Corsi was created to help compare goalie work load. Cause shots only ever showed the ones the goalie actually managed to get a hand on, didn't count all the work the goalies had to do but the shot ended up just going wide, tipped at the last minute etc. It was then changed to be what it is now

It actually isn't bad for predicting team results (to reiterate Ol' Jase's central point), but then it was 'intuitively' extended to be a player evaluation tool and the rest is history.
 

PerformanceMcOil

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What specific variables does one need to account for when presenting a statistic that shows what happens when a given player is on the ice? How do those variables impact that number? Again, the intent isn't necessarily to assign responsibility or lay blame, but to show, as much as possible, what happens when a player is on the ice which, combined with other measures (such as how other players do without them) can provide some insight as to who is doing what out there. Over a big enough sample those variables will smooth out and you're going to glean some useful information from what's left.

Ok, so who is a better defencemen - Larsson or Bear - and why? Or if you prefer, which of them is doing what?
 

McCombo

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But you are specifically talking about team analysis through the metrics, which is substantially more useful due to so many variables being accounted for. That’s the point most of us are trying to explain to you.

And, yeah, sorry, but assertions based upon comparing one player to another in terms of usefulness based on a single metric is absolutely an opinion. The “I know more than most people do because I always look at the numbers” is a nice way of saying “if you don’t agree with my assessments, you just don’t understand the way stats work.”
I get that. I didn't say that I know more about players. Just how teams stack against each other.

Most of the people here probably wouldn't think that there is a bigger gap (base level of the team atm) between Rangers and Flyers who are 3 points apart, than Oilers and Flames who have 15 point difference. With healthy rosters and #1 goalies in net.

Thats because people are very result driven.
 

Ol' Jase

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What specific variables does one need to account for when presenting a statistic that shows what happens when a given player is on the ice? How do those variables impact that number? Again, the intent isn't necessarily to assign responsibility or lay blame, but to show, as much as possible, what happens when a player is on the ice which, combined with other measures (such as how other players do without them) can provide some insight as to who is doing what out there. Over a big enough sample those variables will smooth out and you're going to glean some useful information from what's left.

I don't think I really understand what you're trying to say here.

The metric is event based. Player A acts in a specific way that facilitates Action X that generates result Y. Result Y is equally attributed to Player A AND Players B-J (not accounting for goalies here). Anything that affects the process in which 'Action X' come to be is a variable. Anything. There are dozen's, if not hundreds of different results Y possible through Action X. What effects those outcomes are the variables at work. I'm sure you can think of many different things at work during as fast paces game that will affect the result of player A's shot that is intended to make it's way to the net.

Now, ignoring the actual on-ice event, the biggest glaring omission in player assessment, particularly player vs. player, is the non-existence of what I'll call n-count variance. If one is to treat every event, regardless of variable, as an equal metric, than the variance in the number of events measured to compare player vs. player is vital. If Player A's GF% is based upon 25% more events than Player B, the comparison is inherently flawed from a statistical viewpoint. Not to mention that if what you say is true, and the sample size smooths it out, it's important to understand the baseline at which it does actually "smooth out".

This is the reason why possession numbers work far better for predicting team success. Much of the variables at play are altered to make analysis far less variable driven. Team A has X number of events in a game, which means Team B has an equal number of events. Each result is attributed to two entities only, the team who facilitates the action and the team on the result of the action went against. That's it. Outliers are naturally accounted for because the results take every event during a game into consideration. (McDavid events are weighted equally compared to Larsson events.)

Now, take that same concept and apply it to units, which is the actual attributed metric of result Y. 5 players on each side get an equal weighted measure of result Y that measures the outcome of event X. This can be useful as the n-count of events gets larger and larger when measuring the effectiveness of the unit. Again, because variables such as different teammates is removed (therefore eliminating performance outliers to a large degree) the unit based metrics can be useful when viewed over a sample size large enough to "smooth out" the variable effect.

Now we get to the individual player aspect. I'll use an example to best illustrate this. I'm sure you would agree that there was some hype around the metrics that Caleb Jones was putting up early in his season. Using the understanding of the above concepts, it's not hard to understand that metrics were incredibly skewed as it pertained to the usefulness of the player in comparison to other teammates and most certainly offered no credible insight into his future trajectory. The reason for this is the exact reason you give for overcoming the variable effect; no sample size. When comparing player vs. player, a lot of stuff is in flux that isn't when comparing team vs. team or the effectiveness of three forwards playing 5v5 together for 15+ games. This is because of how the metrics are measured.

I get that this is likely TL;DR, but this has always been the rub with possession stats and it continues to be the same. It's fairly telling that it's not the accounting for results that changed, or the accounting for outliers or even the idea of a shift baseline (what events transpire on an average McDavid shift) that can be used to further understand player contribution, it's has been the introduction of a subjective assessment of "shot quality" under the guise of an objective measurement. In the end, the outcomes are the same. Very good predicator for team success, above average predicator for unit production, dubious for individual player assessment.
 
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Ol' Jase

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I get that. I didn't say that I know more about players. Just how teams stack against each other.

Most of the people here probably wouldn't think that there is a bigger gap (base level of the team atm) between Rangers and Flyers who are 3 points apart, than Oilers and Flames who have 15 point difference. With healthy rosters and #1 goalies in net.

Thats because people are very result driven.

You're referring the Ranger team being significantly better than the team that beat them last night?

Not exactly the best example to use to illustrate your point here.

You're also basing this assessment on goal differential, and not taking into account the outliers. Over two games, the Rangers out scored the Flyers 17-3. Those are not average game results, FYI.

Do you take their head-to-head record into account when saying one team is so much better than the other?
 
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alphahelix

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We need Bear and Larsson going forward. Bouchard is worth developing. I could see a world where we retain Larsson on a reasonable contract and trade Bouchard + for a bonafide 1RD. Then we have Klefbom-Nurse- and either Jones or Lagesson, whoever doesnt get claimed. Russell as 7D. Plus a great prospect pipeline. Thats elite tier Defence. As long as we get our G future sorted that should keep us contending. Obviously would love to add a bonafide top 6 LW too but basically everything else is coming along in house. This offseason is critical it could put us within 1 piece of long term cup contention or bury us under punitive long term contracts.
 
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PerformanceMcOil

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I don't think I really understand what you're trying to say here.

The metric is event based. Player A acts in a specific way that facilitates Action X that generates result Y. Result Y is equally attributed to Player A AND Players B-J (not accounting for goalies here). Anything that affects the process in which 'Action X' come to be is a variable. Anything. There are dozen's, if not hundreds of different results Y possible through Action X. What effects those outcomes are the variables at work. I'm sure you can think of many different things at work during as fast paces game that will affect the result of player A's shot that is intended to make it's way to the net.

Now, ignoring the actual on-ice event, the biggest glaring omission in player assessment, particularly player vs. player, is the non-existence of what I'll call n-count variance. If one is to treat every event, regardless of variable, as an equal metric, than the variance in the number of events measured to compare player vs. player is vital. If Player A's GF% is based upon 25% more events than Player B, the comparison is inherently flawed from a statistical viewpoint. Not to mention that if what you say is true, and the sample size smooths it out, it's important to understand the baseline at which it does actually "smooth out".

This is the reason why possession numbers work far better of predicating team success. Much of the variables at play are altered to make analysis far less variable driven. Team A has X number of events in a game, which means Team B has an equal number of events. Each result is attributed to two entities only, the team who facilitates the action and the team on the result of the action went against. That's it. Outliers are naturally accounted for because the results take every event during a game into consideration. (McDavid events are weighted equally compared to Larsson events.)

Now, take that same concept and apply it to units, which is the actual attributed metric of result Y. 5 players on each side get an equal weighted measure of result Y that measures the outcome of event X. This can be useful as the n-count of events gets larger and larger when measuring the effectiveness of the unit. Again, because variables such as different teammates is removed (therefore eliminating performance outliers to a large degree) the unit based metrics can be useful when viewed over a sample size large enough to "smooth out" the variable effect.

Now we get to the individual player aspect. I'll use an example to best illustrate this. I'm sure you would agree that there was some hype around the metrics that Caleb Jones was putting up early in his season. Using the understanding of the above concepts, it's not hard to understand that metrics were incredibly skewed as it pertained to the usefulness of the player in comparison to other teammates and most certainly offered no credible insight into his future trajectory. The reason for this is the exact reason you give for overcoming the variable effect; no sample size. When comparing player vs. player, a lot of stuff is in flux that isn't when comparing team vs. team or the effectiveness of three forwards playing 5v5 together for 15+ games. This is because of how the metrics are measured.

I get that this is likely TL;DR, but this has always been the rub possession stats and continues to be. It's fairly telling that it's not the accounting for results that changed, or the accounting for outliers or even the idea of a shift baseline (what events transpire on an average McDavid shift) that can be used to further understand player contribution, it's has been the introduction of a subjective assessment of "shot quality" under the guise of an objective measurement. In the end, the outcomes are the same. Very good predicator for team success, above average predicator for unit production, dubious for individual player assessment.

Love it! I mean, this really isn't hard or controversial. But it becomes so when psuedoscientists play at pesudoscience and entrench themselves into their positions, because 'numbers'.

To add, roles and systems matter. Someone like Larsson gets 'caved' (which doesn't sound very quantitative to me) at ES, because his coach sends him out to get caved - but hopefully caved less than a different Dman would be. Someone playing with Larsson is probably gonna do worse then someone playing without him, not because *he* is an anchor, but because his *role* is an anchor.
 

Little Fury

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Love it! I mean, this really isn't hard or controversial. But it becomes so when psuedoscientists play at pesudoscience and entrench themselves into their positions, because 'numbers'.

To add, roles and systems matter. Someone like Larsson gets 'caved' (which doesn't sound very quantitative to me) at ES, because his coach sends him out to get caved - but hopefully caved less than a different Dman would be. Someone playing with Larsson is probably gonna do worse then someone playing without him, not because *he* is an anchor, but because his *role* is an anchor.

Well when you put it that way that sounds like a really stupid way to run a team.
 

Ol' Jase

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Stuff like this only adds greatly to the questionable effectiveness of individual assessment based on unit possession metrics.



The empty net didn’t “save” a god damn thing. It’s just so ridiculous to even try to reference this sort of thing.
 

PerformanceMcOil

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Well when you put it that way that sounds like a really stupid way to run a team.

Maybe, but that's a different debate. The reality is that the Oiler's are a top-heavy team and depth generally comes through drafting and development - which seems better, but is still WiP.

Anyway, that doesn't prove whether Larsson or Bear are bad or good dmen, or prove/disprove the efficacy of any stat.
 
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McCombo

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You're referring the Ranger team being significantly better than the team that beat them last night?

Not exactly the best example to use to illustrate your point here.

You're also basing this assessment on goal differential, and not taking into account the outliers. Over two games, the Rangers out scored the Flyers 17-3. Those are not average game results, FYI.

Do you take their head-to-head record into account when saying one team is so much better than the other?
This is completely wrong thread for this topic but I will post this and if you want we can continue else were!
At first I thought you were joking. Because I just mentioned that people are too results driven and you pretty much just looked the result. And I don't put any weight on goal differential when making my estimations. That was just weird fact and it is very unlikely that they have almost identical point%. But I would say that generally goal differential is closer to "truth" than points (there really isn't truth in these things. Just educated guesses, but I hope you understand what I was trying to explain).

In normal season I don't put any weight on h2h results. Teams play like 1-5/6 games against each other per year, such small sample sizes are pretty much useless. This year you could make some slight chances, or just simply don't make the bet if some team seems the others number. But it is better to ignore those things than make huge adjustments.

How I see things: Like I said earlier probabilities were around 62/63-37/38. This time the team with 37/38% chance of winning ended up winning the game. Simple as that, I don't make really any big conclusions from one game. If team X beats team Y it doesn't mean that they are better team. Detroit won b2b games against Carolina about week ago.

If I had a bet to that match, the most important for me is to check closing odds. Those odds are opinion of every dollar/euro that was invested to that game (in big leagues closing odds are considered to be very accurate). Then I check scoring chances and xG from the game. For example that aforementioned NYR-PHI game was pretty close, but Rangers had a slight edge.

Would I make any adjustments from that game? Only really marginal ones, but nothing significant. Rangers were the favourites, they had more scoring chances/xG, but they ended losing a one goal game.

3.4 Oilers vs Flames closing odds
1.71-2.27

11.4 Flames vs Oilers closing odds
2.03-1.88

23.4 Rangers vs Flyers closing odds
1.60-2.49

Betting market shared my view that there is bigger gap between Rangers vs Flyers than Oilers vs Flames. If you don't agree then there is money to be made for you.
 

CycloneSweep

Registered User
Sep 27, 2017
48,322
40,115
This is completely wrong thread for this topic but I will post this and if you want we can continue else were!
At first I thought you were joking. Because I just mentioned that people are too results driven and you pretty much just looked the result. And I don't put any weight on goal differential when making my estimations. That was just weird fact and it is very unlikely that they have almost identical point%. But I would say that generally goal differential is closer to "truth" than points (there really isn't truth in these things. Just educated guesses, but I hope you understand what I was trying to explain).

In normal season I don't put any weight on h2h results. Teams play like 1-5/6 games against each other per year, such small sample sizes are pretty much useless. This year you could make some slight chances, or just simply don't make the bet if some team seems the others number. But it is better to ignore those things than make huge adjustments.

How I see things: Like I said earlier probabilities were around 62/63-37/38. This time the team with 37/38% chance of winning ended up winning the game. Simple as that, I don't make really any big conclusions from one game. If team X beats team Y it doesn't mean that they are better team. Detroit won b2b games against Carolina about week ago.

If I had a bet to that match, the most important for me is to check closing odds. Those odds are opinion of every dollar/euro that was invested to that game (in big leagues closing odds are considered to be very accurate). Then I check scoring chances and xG from the game. For example that aforementioned NYR-PHI game was pretty close, but Rangers had a slight edge.

Would I make any adjustments from that game? Only really marginal ones, but nothing significant. Rangers were the favourites, they had more scoring chances/xG, but they ended losing a one goal game.

3.4 Oilers vs Flames closing odds
1.71-2.27

11.4 Flames vs Oilers closing odds
2.03-1.88

23.4 Rangers vs Flyers closing odds
1.60-2.49

Betting market shared my view that there is bigger gap between Rangers vs Flyers than Oilers vs Flames. If you don't agree then there is money to be made for you.
Betting odds are mostly a crap shoot.
Oilers had the second best odds to win the cup didn't they? And they were barely a playoff team.

I don't know if I would point to betting sites as proof of advanced stat skills.
 

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