Esposito's 76 goals in 70-71

[checkerdome]

Any guesses as to how many goals Phil Esposito would have scored without the California Golden Seals, Los Angeles Kings, 1st year Vancouver Canucks or 1st year Buffalo Sabres to feast on?

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[BM67]

Esposito scored 23 goals and had 20 assists in 24 games vs those 4 teams, which is slightly behind his overall season pace.

 

[lextune]

In other words, no need to "guess" at all:

GP: 54 G: 53 A: 56 P: 109

53 goals in 54 games remains insane.

So....not sure what the goal of this thread was, but it seemingly was an attempt to bring down the extraordinary season Phil had. Thusly; it is a total failure.

 

[Big Phil]

Even if he did feast on those teams at a higher rate (which we see he didnt) then he still had the same advantages as every other sniper in the NHL.

Espo scored 76 goals. The next best was his teammate Bucyk at 51. The next best was Hull at 44. Espo had 152 points that year. The next best was his teammates Orr (139), Bucyk (116) and Hodge (105). The closest a non-teammate got was Hull at 96. I hope for the OP's sake this proves a point.

 

[OneMoreAstronaut]

OP thought he was soooo smart.

 

[Czech Your Math]

If you ask the question, be prepared for the answer!

BTW, Detroit actually gave up the most goals in Boston's division (second most in NHL).

The more important question may be "how many goals/points would Esposito have scored if he didn't play with Bobby Orr?"

 

[Dark Shadows]

The same amount?

Not every player liked to run up the score on weaker teams. In fact, many players took it easy when the games were well in hand.

 

[Dark Shadows]

If you ask the question, be prepared for the answer!

BTW, Detroit actually gave up the most goals in Boston's division (second most in NHL).

The more important question may be "how many goals/points would Esposito have scored if he didn't play with Bobby Orr?"

Reposting this.
In 1968-69, before the Bruins had fully ironed out their firewagon style that would become their staple in the next few years, Orr re-injured his knee on Jan 30th against the Kings, finished the game and then sat out 9 straight games.

Ill just take a quick look at Hockey Summary Project's data for those 9 games.

During those 9 games he sat out, Esposito scored 5 goals and 10 assists, for 15 points for 1.66ppg. Over a 76 game season, that is on pace for 126.6 points. Which is exactly what he scored that season(126 points).

Hodge and Cashman generally were more integral to, and factored into more goals with Esposito's style. Granted Orr's transition game was a large part of that teams success.

 

[Crosbyfan]

Reposting this.
In 1968-69, before the Bruins had fully ironed out their firewagon style that would become their staple in the next few years, Orr re-injured his knee on Jan 30th against the Kings, finished the game and then sat out 9 straight games.

Ill just take a quick look at Hockey Summary Project's data for those 9 games.

During those 9 games he sat out, Esposito scored 5 goals and 10 assists, for 15 points for 1.66ppg. Over a 76 game season, that is on pace for 126.6 points. Which is exactly what he scored that season(126 points).

Hodge and Cashman generally were more integral to, and factored into more goals with Esposito's style. Granted Orr's transition game was a large part of that teams success.

I wouldn't go that far, unless you mean the two together, but your point is well taken. Esposito was much better suited on that line than he had been as second fiddle set up man for Bobby Hull in previous years.

 

[Crosbyfan]

Any guesses as to how many goals Phil Esposito would have scored without the California Golden Seals, Los Angeles Kings, 1st year Vancouver Canucks or 1st year Buffalo Sabres to feast on?

Are you a closet Esposito fan trying to get these boards to give Phil his due?

If so, well done.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Wayne Cashman

Reposting this.
In 1968-69, before the Bruins had fully ironed out their firewagon style that would become their staple in the next few years, Orr re-injured his knee on Jan 30th against the Kings, finished the game and then sat out 9 straight games.

Ill just take a quick look at Hockey Summary Project's data for those 9 games.

During those 9 games he sat out, Esposito scored 5 goals and 10 assists, for 15 points for 1.66ppg. Over a 76 game season, that is on pace for 126.6 points. Which is exactly what he scored that season(126 points).

Hodge and Cashman generally were more integral to, and factored into more goals with Esposito's style. Granted Orr's transition game was a large part of that teams success.

Wayne Cashman is extremely under-appreciated. Remember that Cashman was one of the rare left wingers that shot right. This created problems for the defense especially on corner coverage and the different angles it created to Esposito in the slot and the two points. This trait also allowed Cashman to work both corners equally well.

 

[Pear Juice]

I've come to appreciate Esposito as more than the goal-scoring pylon that many claim him to be. But I'm a bit interested in hearing about the rest of his game from those who saw him regularly. Was he defensively sound? Was he reckless? Mean? The few interviews he gave in Swedish television made him look like the stereotypical Canadian mean guy. I remember seeing him in the Canada - Sweden game from World Champs in 1977 dealing out some strikingly dirty shots. We got hammered something like 7 to nothing. The afterplay was much about how dirty the Canadians were playing, and especially Esposito came across as a dirtbag due to a very rude interview afterwards.

His PIMs don't seem to indicate that he was cruel on the ice compared to fellow Bobby Clarke, and I've never heard him being compared to Clarke.

In short: Did he play with a mean streak, or is that just a view that is found in Sweden due to the 1977 World Champs?

 

[VMBM]

I've come to appreciate Esposito as more than the goal-scoring pylon that many claim him to be. But I'm a bit interested in hearing about the rest of his game from those who saw him regularly. Was he defensively sound? Was he reckless? Mean? The few interviews he gave in Swedish television made him look like the stereotypical Canadian mean guy. I remember seeing him in the Canada - Sweden game from World Champs in 1977 dealing out some strikingly dirty shots. We got hammered something like 7 to nothing. The afterplay was much about how dirty the Canadians were playing, and especially Esposito came across as a dirtbag due to a very rude interview afterwards.

His PIMs don't seem to indicate that he was cruel on the ice compared to fellow Bobby Clarke, and I've never heard him being compared to Clarke.

In short: Did he play with a mean streak, or is that just a view that is found in Sweden due to the 1977 World Champs?

I think it was just the 1977 WC... and the 1972 Summit Series somewhat; game 6 especially... not forgetting the two games Team Canada played against Sweden in '72 that got a lot of bad press.

The 1977 Team Canada were really a gang of idiots; no more, no less. There were even worse players (like Wilf Paiement), but Esposito - as their undoubted leader - should get much of the blame, no question. Very dirty play with lots of cheap shots, constant complaining about the reffing and even nasty off-ice incidents (I believe Esposito hit both Czech coach Dr. Jan Starsi and Börje Salming's brother Stig)... international hockey just brought out the worst in him. After all, this time he was even forced to wear a helmet, for crying out loud!

All in all, I've always considered Esposito to be a tunnelvisioned 'redneck'. But as a player, I think generally he consentrated on scoring goals and not gooning.

 

[Dark Shadows]

I wouldn't go that far, unless you mean the two together, but your point is well taken. Esposito was much better suited on that line than he had been as second fiddle set up man for Bobby Hull in previous years.

A few years ago, I tallied how many assists Orr factored into on Esposito's goals, and at the same time, did Hodge and Cashman's.

Believe it or not, Orr figured into less than 30% of Esposito's points that year, while Hodge and Cashman(And Bucyk) got in much more(Well over half). While these numbers do not show the impact of Orr's transition game on the team, they show that Hodge/Cashman just clicked with Espo in a way that made that line work.

Its simply a matter of their gritty work along the boards and chemistry in getting the puck to Espo being crucial to his slot play more so than any other factor.

 

[Pear Juice]

I think it was just the 1977 WC... and the 1972 Summit Series somewhat; game 6 especially... not forgetting the two games Team Canada played against Sweden in '72 that got a lot of bad press.

The 1977 Team Canada were really a gang of idiots; no more, no less. There were even worse players (like Wilf Paiement), but Esposito - as their undoubted leader - should get much of the blame, no question. Very dirty play with lots of cheap shots, constant complaining about the reffing and even nasty off-ice incidents (I believe Esposito hit both Czech coach Dr. Jan Starsi and Börje Salming's brother Stig)... international hockey just brought out the worst in him. After all, this time he was even forced to wear a helmet, for crying out loud!

All in all, I've always considered Esposito to be a tunnelvisioned 'redneck'. But as a player, I think generally he consentrated on scoring goals and not gooning.

It's interesting, because that's the way I interpret it aswell. He always gets to personify the "dirty Canadian" when all-in-all he wasn't really that nasty apart from that tournament. Then again the NHL exposure in Scandinavia during Espo's prime was next to nothing. And he didn't really show the his best side when we got a glimpse. Still they dominated us in that game, so I guess it worked, which ultimately is what really counts.

 

[SealsFan]

BTW, Detroit actually gave up the most goals in Boston's division (second most in NHL).

Thanks, the Wings should be included in the list of ne'er-do-wells that season!

 

[BobbyAwe]

How many goals did Espo score at Boston Garden versus on the road during his career in Boston? Or, if not available, how many of the 76 did he score at the Garden during that one year?

I am trying to determine how much the shorter Boston ice surface aided his game, if at all?

 

[shazariahl]

I think it was just the 1977 WC... and the 1972 Summit Series somewhat; game 6 especially... not forgetting the two games Team Canada played against Sweden in '72 that got a lot of bad press.

The 1977 Team Canada were really a gang of idiots; no more, no less. There were even worse players (like Wilf Paiement), but Esposito - as their undoubted leader - should get much of the blame, no question. Very dirty play with lots of cheap shots, constant complaining about the reffing and even nasty off-ice incidents (I believe Esposito hit both Czech coach Dr. Jan Starsi and Börje Salming's brother Stig)... international hockey just brought out the worst in him. After all, this time he was even forced to wear a helmet, for crying out loud!

All in all, I've always considered Esposito to be a tunnelvisioned 'redneck'. But as a player, I think generally he consentrated on scoring goals and not gooning.

He's said a lot of negative things about the Soviet players to the press as well. At one point, didn't he claim Tretiak was the worst goalie he'd ever faced or something? Think that was only a few years ago, well after he was retired.

I really think Espo is a better player than many revisionists try to claim today, but he did always seem a little ... I don't know. I hesitate to use the word racist, but maybe... "antagonistically patriotic" might be a better way to explain it. At least that was always my impression. He seemed to take things really personally too when the Canadian fans boo'd team Canada and cheered for the Soviets in the 72 series.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

It's interesting, because that's the way I interpret it aswell. He always gets to personify the "dirty Canadian" when all-in-all he wasn't really that nasty apart from that tournament. Then again the NHL exposure in Scandinavia during Espo's prime was next to nothing. And he didn't really show the his best side when we got a glimpse. Still they dominated us in that game, so I guess it worked, which ultimately is what really counts.

None of the Canadian players took losing to European teams well. And most of the guys that responded the worst were guys that wouldn't consider doing those things in the NHL. I recall seeing a Soviet team in an exhibition game in 1987 hammer the Whalers and the most blatantly dirty players on the ice were John Anderson and Ray Ferraro.

 

[Killion]

He's said a lot of negative things about the Soviet players to the press as well...

Ya I wouldnt be putting too much stock in Esposito's ramblings on such matters. Fantastic player absolutely, but his propensities to put both of his feet in his mouth is absolutely legendary. Consider this comment when asked by reporter Steve Simmons how he felt about two of his former teams meeting in the Stanley Cup Finals..."You want to know the truth?. This series doesnt mean _____ to me. I have no feelings for these teams. Theres nothing emotional about it. They both got rid of me so screw them".

And he says this at the age of 71. Youd think that with the passage of time he'd have come to philosophically make peace with what were essentially business transactions that took place decades ago. Youd think he'd be first of all greatful to Chicago for giving him a chance in the first place, playing him on a line with the greatest star in the game at that time in Bobby Hull, then trading him to Boston where he's given the opportunity to not only explode statistically but to also be provided with the supporting cast that wins 2 Stanley Cups.

 

[LeBlondeDemon10]

Every star in the expansion era feasted on those types of league generated teams up until the mid to late 90's when Bettman made it more feasible for an expansion team to succeed. When Ottawa and Tampa entered the league, each existing team was allowed to protect 2 goalies. Both these teams and San Jose were miserable for a few years and Lemieux feasted on them. Then the game got into defensive systems and expansion teams would play blanket and tackle.

As for Espo and his International reputation, many Ukrainian Canadians hated the Russians for the Stalin generated famine. Even my grandfather, who fled the Polish/Austrian region called Galacia at the time for Canada in 1907, did so because the Russians were going to conscript him. So this Canadian attitude towards the Soviets and other European communist countries has a history. I realize Espo was Italian-Canadian, but that attitude may have been part of his upbringing.

 

[Budddy]

Ya I wouldnt be putting too much stock in Esposito's ramblings on such matters. Fantastic player absolutely, but his propensities to put both of his feet in his mouth is absolutely legendary. Consider this comment when asked by reporter Steve Simmons how he felt about two of his former teams meeting in the Stanley Cup Finals..."You want to know the truth?. This series doesnt mean _____ to me. I have no feelings for these teams. Theres nothing emotional about it. They both got rid of me so screw them".

And he says this at the age of 71. Youd think that with the passage of time he'd have come to philosophically make peace with what were essentially business transactions that took place decades ago. Youd think he'd be first of all greatful to Chicago for giving him a chance in the first place, playing him on a line with the greatest star in the game at that time in Bobby Hull, then trading him to Boston where he's given the opportunity to not only explode statistically but to also be provided with the supporting cast that wins 2 Stanley Cups.

I saw the comments too and was disappointed...he has quite the personality but he comes across as grumpy old man sometimes which I hear on XM radio time to time...I think his ship has sailed as a hockey analyst...he isn't aware of lots of stuff going in the NHL...is this the best XM can do?

 

[Disciple of Sinden]

Every star in the expansion era feasted on those types of league generated teams up until the mid to late 90's when Bettman made it more feasible for an expansion team to succeed. When Ottawa and Tampa entered the league, each existing team was allowed to protect 2 goalies. Both these teams and San Jose were miserable for a few years and Lemieux feasted on them. Then the game got into defensive systems and expansion teams would play blanket and tackle.

As for Espo and his International reputation, many Ukrainian Canadians hated the Russians for the Stalin generated famine. Even my grandfather, who fled the Polish/Austrian region called Galacia at the time for Canada in 1907, did so because the Russians were going to conscript him. So this Canadian attitude towards the Soviets and other European communist countries has a history. I realize Espo was Italian-Canadian, but that attitude may have been part of his upbringing.

Actually, didn't they organize the league in the 60s to put all the expansion teams in their own division? I seem to remember that being the reason the Blues made the Stanley Cup right way (only to get owned in the Finals).

 

[LeBlondeDemon10]

Actually, didn't they organize the league in the 60s to put all the expansion teams in their own division? I seem to remember that being the reason the Blues made the Stanley Cup right way (only to get owned in the Finals).

Yes, which was a farce on its own imo. Isn't the goal of any professional sports league to have the two best teams competing for the championship? Overcompensation.

 

[Killion]

Welcome to hf Sinden...

Actually, didn't they organize the league in the 60s to put all the expansion teams in their own division? I seem to remember that being the reason the Blues made the Stanley Cup right way (only to get owned in the Finals).

The Original 6 Expansion in 1967/68 yes, the incoming teams with their own Division so their successes during the Regular Seasons were gauged against primarily one another. Then the Playoffs, new season pretty much & despite valiant efforts, foregone conclusion theyd get clobbered. Wasnt until 1974 that a complete realignment was instituted.