Esa Tikkanen or Claude Lemieux- Who was more of a pest?

[Al Bundy*]

When hockey fans speak about 'pests,'

Esa Tikkanen and Claude Lemieux are the two players that usually jump to mind.

Both have a lot in common:

Decent regular-season scorers (Lemieux's career high in goals was 41, Tikkanen's 31)

Phenomenal playoff performers

Frequent Cup champs (Tikkanen has 5 rings; Lemieux 4)

Considered annoying players that can get under the skin of a fan/player

But, who was the bigger/better pest?

Click to read more...

 

[Beef03]

Well Lemieux is probably the more notorious one due to the Red Wings incident, but Tikkanen could trash talk you in a language previously unheard by human ears -- Tikkanese.
End of the day I think I give the edge to Esa because he had a longer run as the top pest in the league.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Tikkanen was the better one on one pest. If he was shadowing you, you'd be fuming. Lemieux was the better team on team pest. No one can create an instant rivalry like him...

 

[VanIslander]

since this discussion is not about the history of hockey for me, that is, i remember their entire careers...

claude had way better skating and puck handling skills: kamensky-forsberg-lemieux in colorado was pure beauty to watch on many, many nights... an underappreciated all-time great line

tik and mess rocked edmonton with whomever else was thrown on their line, but it was more of a one-two punch, chemistry in knowing when to needle a guy and when to hang back, reading each other

they both cranked up their offensive game in the postseason: gave it all they got with a competitive fire second to none

i give the nod to claude for all those dang playoff GWGs on different teams, but not by much

 

[Slapshooter]

I quote myself from Lemieux vs Tikkanen poll:

I think it's a close and good matchup. Claude Lemieux was probably more seriously hated, so one could argue he was actually even better pest than a clownish Tik.

In addition to agitative and physical play, both were good playoff scorers, a real clutch players. Claude Lemieux won Conn Smythe, but I think Tikkanen did possess a wider range of hockey skills. In addition of 2nd line scoring winger or elite defensive forward in any line, Tik could backup as a playmaking center or as a PP pointman.

It's a close call, but Tikkanen was most probably liked in his own locker room as a somekind of jester, while rumours told that Claude was not popular at all among his teammates. So I would take Prime Tikkanen. (Yet I chose a C.Lemieux to my alltime roster as the agitator...like I said, it's a close one )

I don't agree with VanIslander that Claude had a better puck handling skills. More like vice versa. Tikkanen was a more versatile offensive player, but Lemieux was a bit better goal scorer and had a nastier mean streak.

Tik messed his late career with bum knees or some other leg based injuries, but the topic is "who was more of a pest", not who's better player. I give edge to Claude since I believe many wanted not just to beat him, but to kill him.

 

[Alan Jackson]

There's a good Tikkanen story from his time with the Canucks.

Coach Tom Renney had instituted a new rule banniing beer from team flights. The decision was unpopular with many of the veterans, including one Esa Tikkanen.

Tikkanen's reply? "I'll get a note from my doctor."

 

[tony d]

Esa Tikkanen

 

[SCORE4]

Tikkanen .... at least Lemieux would fight when challenged after his many cheapshots .... kind of ....


Why didn't anyone ever push Tikkanen's face in?

 

[Slapshooter]

Tikkanen .... at least Lemieux would fight when challenged after his many cheapshots .... kind of ...

True. Lemieux did fight back sometimes(although he did also turtle and hid behind linesmen), but Claude was also challenged and jumped on more, because he was even dirtier than Tikkanen. Both were cheapshots, but Lemieux's play was more dangerously criminal.
Claude Lemieux was hated much like Ulf Samuelsson.

God I miss 'em all!

 

[SCORE4]

Yep. I loved it when Darren McCarty beat the living crap outta Lemieux

 

[Slapshooter]

Yep. I loved it when Darren McCarty beat the living crap outta Lemieux

McCarty vs Lemieux's turtling:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d08q4o4MWXM

McCarty vs Lemieux 2 (this time Claude managed to fight back at least):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUVBts1_KJo

 

[wilkrogers]

i hated both of them

 

[begbeee]

Lemieux. More clutch and his acts were more dangerous. He was hated, Tikkanen was a clown.

 

[jkrx]

The difference between them is that Tikkanen was an agitator while Lemieux were a dangerous (in the context of other players health) player. I give it to Tikkanen as he could agitate without trying to break necks or crush faces.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Weird bump.

The difference between them is that Tikkanen was an agitator while Lemieux were a dangerous (in the context of other players health) player.

I had this written up in my mind as soon as I saw the thread title. Tikkanen was more of a pest. Lemieux was a cheap-shot artist, which is a different breed of dirty.

 

[BraveCanadian]

The difference between them is that Tikkanen was an agitator while Lemieux were a dangerous (in the context of other players health) player. I give it to Tikkanen as he could agitate without trying to break necks or crush faces.

Right on the money. Tikkanen was a straight up pest.

Lemieux was a yapper, but mostly just a dirty cheap shotter and a reckless danger to his fellow players.

I was glad any time someone got a piece of Lemieux. As good a player as he was I would have been ashamed to have him on my team.

 

[brianscot]

Tikkanen was like Stifler in those American Pie movies --- energetic, annoying, like gum (or another substance) on your shoe.

As others have stated, Lemieux tried to hurt people, played too often with too little respect and then typically lacked the berries to stand up.

Neely's winging him around in the 1994 playoffs should have earned Neely some HOF monitor points.

 

[IafrateOvie34]

Weird bump.




I had this written up in my mind as soon as I saw the thread title. Tikkanen was more of a pest. Lemieux was a cheap-shot artist, which is a different breed of dirty.

Tikkanen gets my vote as pest/shadow and yes, I 100 percent agree with your quote.

 

[Jumptheshark]

tik pissed people off because what he did was within how the game was played

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i wonder if anyone else thinks the game has moved away from these kinds of players. not to say pests no longer exist-- obviously you still have guys who keep finding teams that want them like matt cooke, sean avery, etc. and obviously david bolland has had great success in that role, especially at vancouver's expense.

but this year formerly pesky guys like kesler, burrows, downie, have all become much better players since they cut down on the agitating. and they all have had success in the playoffs. on a smaller scale, you could say the same about maxim lapierre, who is playing the best hockey of his life and doing it while mostly keeping his nose clean.

you look at a guy like kesler, who seems to be in the same league talent-wise as tik or pepi at their peaks. i don't think anyone would ever say that those two would have been more effective in the late 80s and 90s if they weren't holding, hacking, chirping, sticking the guys they were shadowing. but kesler is more effective, both defensively and offensively, when he concentrates on just playing.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

tik pissed people off because what he did was within how the game was played

Was going to jump in saying something similar. Lemieux was a pest because, well... he could be annoying in a "get under your skin" kind of way. Tikkanen was a pest because he was sneakily effective and you couldn't shake him.

 

[tarheelhockey]

i wonder if anyone else thinks the game has moved away from these kinds of players.

Yes and no. I feel like there are fewer outright pests in the game now. In fact there aren't many players at all who can get away with spending a lot of time in the box or pushing the envelope when it comes to creating "incidents". The Gillies suspension was a shot across the bow for that kind of thing.

Stickwork is definitely down. Looking back, it's unbelievable what we used to consider "normal" in regards to slashing, butt-ending, etc.

That said, I'm not sure the amount of cheapshotting has actually gone down overall. It's just done differently, and perhaps with less strategic purpose. Guys run each other with malicious intent left and right, and that's the new normal.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Yes and no. I feel like there are fewer outright pests in the game now. In fact there aren't many players at all who can get away with spending a lot of time in the box or pushing the envelope when it comes to creating "incidents". The Gillies suspension was a shot across the bow for that kind of thing.

Stickwork is definitely down. Looking back, it's unbelievable what we used to consider "normal" in regards to slashing, butt-ending, etc.

That said, I'm not sure the amount of cheapshotting has actually gone down overall. It's just done differently, and perhaps with less strategic purpose. Guys run each other with malicious intent left and right, and that's the new normal.

i agree. i don't think the level of cheapshotting has gone down at all. but we were talking about the role of the shadow in a thread recently, and i think the role of the pest-specialist as a guy like tikkanen and kasper on gretzky or lemieux on neely, who spends all game following the other team's offensive star around and trying to get him off his game by hooking, holding, sticking, and yapping, seems to be becoming a thing of the past.

or who knows? maybe coaches and GMs will look at how dave bolland is the only forward in the past few years to be able to shut down the last two scoring champions, and every team will have a bolland next season.

 

[tikkanen5rings*]

since this discussion is not about the history of hockey for me, that is, i remember their entire careers...

claude had way better skating and puck handling skills: kamensky-forsberg-lemieux in colorado was pure beauty to watch on many, many nights... an underappreciated all-time great line

tik and mess rocked edmonton with whomever else was thrown on their line, but it was more of a one-two punch, chemistry in knowing when to needle a guy and when to hang back, reading each other

they both cranked up their offensive game in the postseason: gave it all they got with a competitive fire second to none

i give the nod to claude for all those dang playoff GWGs on different teams, but not by much

not true at all. Tikkanen was the superior puck handler and had great wheels before his knee ruined his production. He had the injury since juniors and was misdiagnosed then it got worse.

Lemieux was propably more hated but Tikkanen was the better player overall. Selke caliber defencive forward who would make any players piss to boil with his trash talk and shadowing while being a terrific playoff performer.

 

[dafoomie]

i wonder if anyone else thinks the game has moved away from these kinds of players. not to say pests no longer exist-- obviously you still have guys who keep finding teams that want them like matt cooke, sean avery, etc. and obviously david bolland has had great success in that role, especially at vancouver's expense.

but this year formerly pesky guys like kesler, burrows, downie, have all become much better players since they cut down on the agitating. and they all have had success in the playoffs. on a smaller scale, you could say the same about maxim lapierre, who is playing the best hockey of his life and doing it while mostly keeping his nose clean.

you look at a guy like kesler, who seems to be in the same league talent-wise as tik or pepi at their peaks. i don't think anyone would ever say that those two would have been more effective in the late 80s and 90s if they weren't holding, hacking, chirping, sticking the guys they were shadowing. but kesler is more effective, both defensively and offensively, when he concentrates on just playing.

Brad Marchand broke into the league this year, and I think he's done a good job of being more Esa Tikkanen than Claude Lemieux. He's been better when he's playing that way, I think its helped him have a more consistent impact on each game.

Downie's still a pest, he might be taking fewer penalties but it seemed like he was trying to kiss a Bruin on every stoppage in that series. Kesler's just an outstanding player that doesn't need to waste his time with it.