Eichel vs Matthews

[Dekes For Days]

That won't change my opinion but one is also playing on a better team while the other have been playing for the Sabres. Swap them both teams I highly doubt that Matthews would be able to produce the same way he has playing with the likes of Reinhart (50pts), rookie Olofsson (42pts) and Vesey (20pts) compared to playing with Marner (67pts), Nylander (59pts) and Hyman (37pts).

Over the past 3 years at ES, Matthews' most common 3 linemates have been Nylander, Hyman, and Johnsson. Eichel's have been Reinhart, Skinner, and Olofsson. Matthews has had better linemates on the PP in two of the years, but he also showed an ability to produce at an elite rate on the PP with worse PP linemate quality than Eichel gets, in his rookie and sophomore years. Eichel has had worse linemate quality overall, and that likely does affect his totals to some extent, but the effect seems to be exaggerated for him because people want him to be better than he actually is.

When looking at raw production, his additional PP TOI more than makes up for the difference in linemate quality, and when looking at more accurate forms of production like per-60, the gap between them is actually quite substantial. And it's quite odd for somebody with supposedly bad linemates to rely so heavily on secondary assists...

 

[Spilot23]

Just like Kessel went from 60 points with Bozak to a whopping.. 59 points with Malkin. Then when he plays on the 3rd line and gets the most PP minutes he's had in his entire career, he mysteriously breaks 90 with 42 of them on the PP.

Bonino > Malkin? Or maybe PP time matters more than linemates do.

I really don't get the comparison with the PP time matters when Matthews got only 5 more pts in ES. It's not like Eichel only produces in PP compared to Matthews. As I said I prefer Eichel playmaking over Matthews goalscoring. Not gonna go in the debate again on who's better when they're like dozen of threads/poll Matthews vs Eichel. I stick to my opinion will gladly eat my words when all said and done but again to me they're neck and neck basically just went with preference.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Just like Kessel went from 60 points with Bozak to a whopping.. 59 points with Malkin. Then when he plays on the 3rd line and gets the most PP minutes he's had in his entire career, he mysteriously breaks 90 with 42 of them on the PP.

Bonino > Malkin? Or maybe PP time matters more than linemates do.

For the record (not that it goes entirely against your point), Kessel's 92 point season was when he played primarily on Malkin's line. Bonino left the team after the 2017 Cup win.

 

[Jericho111091]

Flip a coin

 

[M2Beezy]

Big Matthews fan here voting Eichel. Just better, simply

 

[Hisch13r]

As players I give Matthews the slight edge. Including contracts I go Eichel. An extra 2 years with ~1.6 mil lower cap hit makes the difference

 

[LeafsNation75]

Matthews is UFA in 4 years, Eichel in 6. That's pretty significant. If you take Eichel, you get to have an elite player locked in at a good price for 2 more years. To me the term is the deal breaker.

When Matthews signed his 5 year contract extension, Bob McKenzie said for him to have signed for 8 years he would have needed to come in north of McDavid's $12.5 million by $1 million or more. What do you think the reaction would have been on here if Matthews got more money than McDavid, even if it was an 8 year extension instead of 5 years.

I’m voting Eichel now due to this insufferable victim mentality

Chances are you would have still voted for Eichel no matter what, because I have never seen you vote for a Maple Leafs player anytime they are included on a poll.

 

[Golden_Jet]

The funniest part is that Eichel's extra assists are pretty much entirely secondary assists.

False
57% of his assists are secondary, 43% are primary

Pretty much entirely does not equal 57%

 

[Regal]

False
57% of his assists are secondary, 43% are primary

Pretty much entirely does not equal 57%

He means the assists more than Matthews are mostly secondary. So for this year, Eichel had 42 assists, 23 of which were secondary. Matthews had 33 assists, 14 of which were secondary. So they both had 19 primary assists. The difference in their totals this year is entirely secondary assists.

If we look at the three years before this, Eichel had 126 total assists compared to 94 for Matthews, but of those Eichel had 73 primary assists while Matthews had 61. So of the 32 assist difference for Eichel, 20 of those were secondaries.

 

[Dekes For Days]

False
57% of his assists are secondary, 43% are primary
Pretty much entirely does not equal 57%

It's not false; you just didn't read what I wrote correctly. The difference in their assists is pretty much entirely secondary assists. They are very similar primary assist producers.

 

[Golden_Jet]

It's not false; you just didn't read what I wrote correctly. The difference in their assists is pretty much entirely secondary assists. They are very similar primary assist producers.

Ok tips

So same primary then, but Eichel has 9 or 10 more secondary assists and that is bad because.....

That logic , better not get more secondary, better to not help your teammate score a goal, because it’s only a secondary assist lol

 

[Dekes For Days]

So same primary then, but Eichel has 9 or 10 more secondary assists and that is bad because.....

Nobody said it's "bad" that Eichel gets secondary assists.. it's better than nothing, but their playmaking differences are massively exaggerated, and even if they were equal producers overall (they're not), it's way more valuable and reflective of individual impact to have superiority in goal-scoring than secondary assists. Such a high secondary assist percentage also casts doubt on the idea that he's as massively hurt by his linemates as some suggest.

 

[dukeofjive]

Voted mathews, but either would be amazing to have on montreal.

 

[BlueBaron]

I’m voting Eichel now due to this insufferable victim mentality

Yeah Ted, we know normally you would vote for the Leaf player, you have done it so many times before.

You sure showed us

 

[Varan]

I don't know. This is too close. Too close that it depends on the day.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Eichel played with Olofsson and Reinhart as his most frequent linemates last season.
Eichel played with Jeff Skinner and Reinhart as his most frequent linemates in 2018-19.
Eichel played with Evander Kane and Reinhart as his most frequent linemates in 2017-18.
Eichel played with Marcus Foligno/Moulson/Kane/Okposo and Reinhart as his most frequent linemates in 2016-17.
Eichel played with Evander Kane and Reinhart as his most frequent linemates in 2015-16.

Sam Reinhart goals/point totals:
2015-16:23/ 42 P in 79 games
2016-17: 17/ 47 P in 79 games
2017-18: 25/ 50 P in 82 games
2018-19: 22/ 65 P in 82 games
2019-20: 22/ 50 P in 69 games

2015-16 Evander Kane totals (g/points): 20 G 35 Points in 65 games
2016-17 Foligno/Kane/Okposo/ Moulson: 74 G 143 Points in 296 games
2017-18 Evander Kane: 20 G 40 Points in 60 games
2018-19 Jeff Skinner: 40 G 63 Points in 82 games
2019-20 Victor Olofsson 20 G 42 Points in 54 games

Totals: Sam Reinhart to date: 109 Goals 254 Points in 391 games (82 game average 23 goals and 53 points)
Totals of the rest of the players: 174 Goals 323 Points in 557 games (82 game average 26 goals and 48 points)

Totals: 283 Goals 577 Points in 948 games (82 game average 25 Goals 50 Points)

Auston played with Zach Hyman and William Nylander as his most frequent linemates in 2016-17.
Auston played with Zach Hyman and William Nylander/ Connor Brown as his most frequent linemates in 2017-18.
Auston played with Kasperi Kapanen and Patrick Marleau/ Andreas Johnsson as his most frequent linemates in 2018-19.
Auston played with Andreas Johnsson/Hyman and Mitchell Marner as his most frequent linemates in 2019-20.

Zach Hyman 2016/17/18 totals: 25 Goals 68 Points in 164 games
Connor Brown 2017-18 totals: 14 Goals 28 Points in 82 games
William Nylander 2016/17/18 totals: 42 Goals 122 Points in 163 games
Kapanen 2018-19 totals: 20 Goals 44 Points in 78 games
Marleau/ AJ combo 2018-19 totals: 36 Goals 80 Points in 155 games
AJ/Hyman 2019-20 totals: 29 Goals 58 Points in 84 games
Mitchell Marner 2019-20 totals: 16 Goals 67 Points in 59 games

Totals: 182 Goals 467 Points in 785 games (82 game average 19 Goals 49 Points)

Without Marner Totals: 166 Goals 400 Points 726 games (82 game average 19 Goals 45 Points)



PPP
Eichel 40 G and 78 Assists for 118 Points in 354 games (82 game average 9 Goals 27 Points)
Matthews 37 Goals 42 Assists for 79 Points in 282 games (82 game average 11 Goals 23 Points)

Auston to this point in his career has done more with less on his line. Consistently under Babcock he would have to carry rookies like Nylander, Hyman, Kapanen, Brown and Johnsson. And a grizzled old vet in Marleau. This season was the first season he got to play with a PPG+ talent in Mitch Marner and even that didn't happen until half way through the season when Babcock started to get desperate and shake things up.

Eichel has a shittier team around him, I would absolutely agree to that. However, when it comes to having capable legitimate 1st line/ top 6 talent on his wings, the Sabres have done their best with the exception of one season to give him that. Matthews had the luxury of Nylander in a familiar face in his first 2 seasons but thanks to Nylander's holdout, he's been stumbling around with a revolving door of linemates since 2 years ago. This past season he had some stability. Eichel has had the luxury of having Reinhart on his line every single season and agree or not, he's not a terrible player for a former 2nd overall pick and he's a player that plays a solid 2 way game with good offensive ability who Eichel is comfortable playing with. If Matthews had the luxury of guys like Kane, Olofsson and Skinner who are capable goal scorers, his assist totals would definitely see a 5-10 points spike and we would be looking at a guy who's putting up close to 100-105 points over 82 games instead of one that was pacing for about 93-95, while still potting 50 goals. Eichel as great as he is simply doesn't have the ability to pot 50 and 100 points while playing with middle 6 talent. And this is before we discuss PPP.

Looking at those numbers I wonder what Matthews and Eichel's stats would have been if Mike Babcock had agreed to coach in Buffalo instead of Toronto?

 

[Varan]

Except unlike the Crosby/Ovechkin scenario, the better goal-scorer is also the better player.

Matthews is a better point producer, primary point producer, and goal-scorer, at a younger age. Eichel is better at secondary assists...

Ehh, currently their PPG's were basically a wash (Eichel had an extremely slight advantage this season | 1.147 > 1.142). Current day I'd say they're a wash. One is the better playmaker, the other is the better goalscorer, however when points are close, go with the goalscorer.

But comparing line mates, it's in Eichel's favour.

 

[Crow]

I really don’t give a flying f*** about line mates. Thats simplistic. How can I say for sure that eichels line mates weren’t better partly because of Eichel? Or that Matthews might benefit from being on a team with another top 15 center despite playing with less producing line mates?

That said I went with Matthews because of his elite goal scoring ability.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Ehh, currently their PPG's were basically a wash (Eichel had an extremely slight advantage this season | 1.147 > 1.142). Current day I'd say they're a wash. One is the better playmaker, the other is the better goalscorer, however when points are close, go with the goalscorer.

But comparing line mates, it's in Eichel's favour.

Besides their PPG during the 2019-20 season, it should be noted that Matthews is currently at 1.01 PPG during his 4 seasons and Eichel is at 0.95 PPG during his 5 seasons.

As for their line mates it was great seeing Matthews playing a lot more with Mitch Marner and all it took Mike Babcock getting fired for that to happen. So if anything when Leafs fans have said Eichel has played with better players we didn't make that up.

 

[Varan]

Besides their PPG during the 2019-20 season, it should be noted that Matthews is currently at 1.01 PPG during his 4 seasons and Eichel is at 0.95 PPG during his 5 seasons.

A difference of 0.06, which is a 5 point difference between Matthews and Eichel over the course of a season. Means nothing in the long run.

Also, Eichel has greatly improved since his rookie season which is bringing down his overall PPG. Outside of his rookie season, his PPG is 1.03. Matthews' PPG outside his rookie season is 1.08. A difference of 0.05 which is 4 more points over the course of a season.

They are equal.

As for their line mates it was great seeing Matthews playing a lot more with Mitch Marner and all it took Mike Babcock getting fired for that to happen. So if anything when Leafs fans have said Eichel has played with better players we didn't make that up.

So Eichel kept up with Matthews even though he was playing with a far superior line-mate when compared to who Eichel plays with? Cool.

 

[nobody]

I really don’t give a flying f*** about line mates. Thats simplistic. How can I say for sure that eichels line mates weren’t better partly because of Eichel? Or that Matthews might benefit from being on a team with another top 15 center despite playing with less producing line mates?

That said I went with Matthews because of his elite goal scoring ability.

Because there's no sane person on this planet including HF that takes Zach Hyman/ Kasperi Kapanen or Andreas Johnsson over guys like Evander Kane/ Jeff Skinner/ Olofsson. Matthews is dominant even with lesser linemates because he's just that good. His struggle is producing numbers in terms of assists and that's because he hasn't had goal scorer's on his line. The best goal-scoring forward he's had is probably Nylander when he had 22 goals over 82 games. Olofsson alone scored 20 goals in 52 games last year as a rookie. Matthews with better goal scorers means he can bump his assist totals from 40 assists to 50-55 assists per season and adding on the 45-50 goals he's capable of potting, it pushes his point totals from 90-95 points to 100-105 points, which puts him in the very top tier of forwards.

Matthews barring injuries this upcoming season should challenge for a scoring title. If Marner is a permanent fixture right from the beginning. Even without racking up too many secondary assists.

 

[Crow]

Because there's no sane person on this planet including HF that takes Zach Hyman/ Kasperi Kapanen or Andreas Johnsson over guys like Evander Kane/ Jeff Skinner/ Olofsson. Matthews is dominant even with lesser linemates because he's just that good. His struggle is producing numbers in terms of assists and that's because he hasn't had goal scorer's on his line. The best goal-scoring forward he's had is probably Nylander when he had 22 goals over 82 games. Olofsson alone scored 20 goals in 52 games last year as a rookie. Matthews with better goal scorers means he can bump his assist totals from 40 assists to 50-55 assists per season and adding on the 45-50 goals he's capable of potting, it pushes his point totals from 90-95 points to 100-105 points, which puts him in the very top tier of forwards.

Matthews barring injuries this upcoming season should challenge for a scoring title. If Marner is a permanent fixture right from the beginning. Even without racking up too many secondary assists.

I agree about the line mates, but you addressed only part of my post. He’s on a team where people have to focus extremely hard on two scoring lines. Eichel isn’t. It’s not that his line mates aren’t important, it’s that it’s simplistic to look at it as the only determining factor. Some players’ games are more independent of line mates than others as well.

 

[nickdawg95]

I'm taking the captain and the person who doesn't flash random people on the street

 

[nobody]

I agree about the line mates, but you addressed only part of my post. He’s on a team where people have to focus extremely hard on two scoring lines. Eichel isn’t. It’s not that his line mates aren’t important, it’s that it’s simplistic to look at it as the only determining factor. Some players’ games are more independent of line mates than others as well.

That's fair.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Ehh, currently their PPG's were basically a wash

Yes, because Eichel gets more PP time to make up the difference between their abilities. Matthews has consistently shown to be the better point producer, despite being younger.