Elks: Edmonton Eskimos 2019 v4

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guymez

The Seldom Seen Kid
Mar 3, 2004
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Speaking of Harris, the guy needs more conviction and aggression in his game. That’s the whole reason his entire career has been a case of finishing second best and settling.

His troubles in the redzone can be boiled down to three major issues:

1. Weak arm. He can get away with this on the rest of the field because defences give more room and space. In the redzone everything is compressed, balls need to be thrown into smaller spaces with more purpose and velocity.

2. Lack of conviction and assertiveness.

3. Lack of lower core body strength.

Harris might be one of the weakest 6’3” QBs I’ve ever seen. Guy gets almost no lower body push on short yardage plays. If the O-line meets any resistance on initial contact, the play is basically dead because there is no way Harris is pushing for that extra yard.

Combine that with his lack of assertiveness and he looks like a limp wet noodle out there sometimes. He’s a good QB with an accurate arm, but these weaknesses have really held him back his entire career.

Granted, Maas isn’t doing him any favours with some of his redzone playcalling.

Every QB has weaknesses. Every single one.
Reilly had a few himself and now that we can watch him with a different offence on a different team many of the same issues that we witnessed in Edmonton are now on display in BC.
The key is to work with his strengths which BC is not doing very much at all.

Back to Harris...he is not the issue on this team...play calling is. You design a system that works with the strength of your QB.
For example...if QB sneaks is not a strength then you dont expect things to magically change by virtue of repetition. You do what what Winnipeg does...you bring in the backup.
It also gives the backup touches so in the event he is needed to run a play that requires him to step back from the centre he isnt coming in completely cold.

The problem with this offence is not Harris...its Jason Maas.
 

Cloned

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Aug 25, 2003
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Every QB has weaknesses. Every single one.
Reilly had a few himself and now that we can watch him with a different offence on a different team many of the same issues that we witnessed in Edmonton are now on display in BC.
The key is to work with his strengths which BC is not doing very much at all.

Back to Harris...he is not the issue on this team...play calling is. You design a system that works with the strength of your QB.
For example...if QB sneaks is not a strength then you dont expect things to magically change by virtue of repatition. You do what what Winnipeg does...you bring in the backup.
It also gives the backup touches so in the event he is needed to run a play that requires him to step back from the centre he isnt coming on completely cold.

The problem with this offence is not Harris...its Jason Maas.

Well, I agree actually. Maas does a good job of trying to hide some of Harris’ weaknesses - he runs a ball control offense to cover for the weak arm, for example. But he needs to commit to covering for all those weaknesses. Bring the backup in for sneaks. Run more screens in the redzone instead of trying to force slants and tight throws.

However, let’s not absolve Harris of all blame here either. Guy could stand to get stronger with his legs and take charge on the field more often.
 

guymez

The Seldom Seen Kid
Mar 3, 2004
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Well, I agree actually. Maas does a good job of trying to hide some of Harris’ weaknesses - he runs a ball control offense to cover for the weak arm, for example. But he needs to commit to covering for all those weaknesses. Bring the backup in for sneaks. Run more screens in the redzone instead of trying to force slants and tight throws.

However, let’s not absolve Harris of all blame here either. Guy could stand to get stronger with his legs and take charge on the field more often.

Its not at all about absolving Harris of blame. Its about recognizing how to run an offence that exploits his strengths.
You outlined nicely some of the ways to do that. Once you do that then if and when Harris doesnt execute thats when you point the finger at him.
You dont point the finger at him for failing at being something he isnt.

I think that Harris brings more than enough to build a formidable offence around. He brings enough to the table to be a champion IMO.

Thats not going to happen until the HC/OC stops trying to stubbornly make his static ideas work.
Embrace what Harris brings. Adjust your thinking so that it supports and expands on what your QB has and make him even better.

I dont have a lot of faith in Maas because I havent seen much evidence to suggest that he is a coach that can adjust his thinking. He doesnt seem to learn from his mistakes and learn from what doesnt work.
If he manages to get this team to a Grey Cup and its a close game I have little to no faith in his ability to out coach the opposing HC.
Thats just what I am seeing from my favorite chair in front of the TV.
 

Cloned

Begging for Bega
Aug 25, 2003
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Its not at all about absolving Harris of blame. Its about recognizing how to run an offence that exploits his strengths.
You outlined nicely some of the ways to do that. Once you do that then if and when Harris doesnt execute thats when you point the finger at him.
You dont point the finger at him for failing at being something he isnt.

I think that Harris brings more than enough to build a formidable offence around. He brings enough to the table to be a champion IMO.

Thats not going to happen until the HC/OC stops trying to stubbornly make his static ideas work.
Embrace what Harris brings. Adjust your thinking so that it supports and expands on what your QB has and make him even better.

I dont have a lot of faith in Maas because I havent seen much evidence to suggest that he is a coach that can adjust his thinking. He doesnt seem to learn from his mistakes and learn from what doesnt work.
If he manages to get this team to a Grey Cup and its a close game I have little to no faith in his ability to out coach the opposing HC.
Thats just what I am seeing from my favorite chair in front of the TV.

Maas adjusts, just not very well. He went from a deep throwing offense to a ball control offense because his QB changed. The problem is that he isn’t detail oriented enough to understand that you can’t go an entire quarters without throwing a single deep pattern. Ball control is great until the other defense collapses on your short routes.

He’s basically coaching at a mediocre level, which can bring good teams down.
 

guymez

The Seldom Seen Kid
Mar 3, 2004
33,206
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Maas adjusts, just not very well. He went from a deep throwing offense to a ball control offense because his QB changed. The problem is that he isn’t detail oriented enough to understand that you can’t go an entire quarters without throwing a single deep pattern. Ball control is great until the other defense collapses on your short routes.

He’s basically coaching at a mediocre level, which can bring good teams down.

Thats my issue...he may adjust the offence and change the look long term of how the offence is run but his in game adjustments are very weak to non existent.

So I give him credit for moving to a more ball control offence and managing the game better but why does he refuse to give the ball to the backup on short yardage situations?
Why does he continue to run the same offence between the 20 yard lines and think that not changing anything will help with the inconsistent red zone scoring?
Why does he continue to run the dink and dunk offence in the last 90 seconds of the game the team is losing when he knows that it is an offence designed to eat up the clock?

I have many questions. :nod:
 
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Drivesaitl

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Speaking of Harris, the guy needs more conviction and aggression in his game. That’s the whole reason his entire career has been a case of finishing second best and settling.

His troubles in the redzone can be boiled down to three major issues:

1. Weak arm. He can get away with this on the rest of the field because defences give more room and space. In the redzone everything is compressed, balls need to be thrown into smaller spaces with more purpose and velocity.

2. Lack of conviction and assertiveness.

3. Lack of lower core body strength.

Harris might be one of the weakest 6’3” QBs I’ve ever seen. Guy gets almost no lower body push on short yardage plays. If the O-line meets any resistance on initial contact, the play is basically dead because there is no way Harris is pushing for that extra yard.

Combine that with his lack of assertiveness and he looks like a limp wet noodle out there sometimes. He’s a good QB with an accurate arm, but these weaknesses have really held him back his entire career.

Granted, Maas isn’t doing him any favours with some of his redzone playcalling.

Harris is not executing in red zone. Plays are there. Several passes rushed, off target, running right into Jefferson in the last game lolol.

Its like he gets nervous, irritable, has no calm and cool in that area. Wasted down.

Add that he's pathetic on 3rd downs or short yardage situations and it sure doesn't help.

It drives me nuts how he'll force a pass or rush a pass in money areas.

He can make some big plays anywhere else on the field but when D's tighten up with pts on the line he doesn't have a lot of answers.

For this kind of yardage we should be seeing way more pts and its nothing to do with our FG kicking.

The Red Zone production is mostly on Harris.

Harris has the schemes and some personnel to utilize. The one thing Maas could be seen to be reasonable good at is offensive schemes, strategy and Maas himself rarely had difficulty with redzone production, to his credit, and because he played balls out in big moments.
 
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joestevens29

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Apr 30, 2009
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Every QB has weaknesses. Every single one.
Reilly had a few himself and now that we can watch him with a different offence on a different team many of the same issues that we witnessed in Edmonton are now on display in BC.
The key is to work with his strengths which BC is not doing very much at all.

Back to Harris...he is not the issue on this team...play calling is. You design a system that works with the strength of your QB.
For example...if QB sneaks is not a strength then you dont expect things to magically change by virtue of repetition. You do what what Winnipeg does...you bring in the backup.
It also gives the backup touches so in the event he is needed to run a play that requires him to step back from the centre he isnt coming in completely cold.

The problem with this offence is not Harris...its Jason Maas.
Pretty much this. If you think you are going to change how a 33 year old plays the game you are kidding yourself.
 
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Kyle McMahon

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May 10, 2006
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We'll just have to agree to disagree. Kicking percentage is the number one measurement of kicker success in football. I even broke it down into categories showing they are basically the same kicker in all ranges with Medlock having a slight edge on distance but not accuracy.

But you're right, he did miss that bad one that one game (which wasn't even a gimme as it was over 30 yards), so he's done as I'm sure none of the other guys have missed or will ever miss an important one.

But wait, Parades missed two in the loss vs. Hamilton, one of which was 36 yards, the other resulted in a kick return touchdown. That's a 13 point swing in a 7 point loss. He also missed (a long one granted) against Ottawa mid-way through the 4th quarter and if Campbell isn't an idiot surrendering the single, odds are they lose that game partially related to that miss. He's still a good kicker and I'm sure Calgary's still happy with him.

Medlock hasn't missed in any losses this year, but I recall him missing for a loss sometimes in the past. It happens.

The last thing I'll say on this is that kickers will go through a cold spell and sometimes they'll miss a bad one during that cold spell. Whyte had that a few weeks back and contributed to two losses but wasn't the sole cause. However, he's been spot on at almost all ranges since coming to Edmonton and it's not fair to throw him out on a poor three game stretch when he's basically been the top kicker in the CFL during his tenure with the Esks prior to that slump. Prior to that slump he missed only 2 kicks inside the 40, 85% between the 40-49 and 70% over 50 yards over his entire Eskimo career. I think through that he's earned a little slack to weather a 3 or 4 game skid.

Yup, fair enough. I'd love nothing more than to see Whyte nail a 50-yard game winning field goal on Monday and have me eating crow!
 
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Kyle McMahon

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May 10, 2006
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Every QB has weaknesses. Every single one.
Reilly had a few himself and now that we can watch him with a different offence on a different team many of the same issues that we witnessed in Edmonton are now on display in BC.
The key is to work with his strengths which BC is not doing very much at all.

Back to Harris...he is not the issue on this team...play calling is. You design a system that works with the strength of your QB.
For example...if QB sneaks is not a strength then you dont expect things to magically change by virtue of repetition. You do what what Winnipeg does...you bring in the backup.
It also gives the backup touches so in the event he is needed to run a play that requires him to step back from the centre he isnt coming in completely cold.

The problem with this offence is not Harris...its Jason Maas.

This is the part I can't wrap my head around. We've had a ridiculous number of third and short failures this year, yet seemingly no effort has been made to rectify this. It's either Harris on a sneak, or god forbid, a deep handoff to Gable. Find a backup QB who can plunge forward for 2 yards. It doesn't even need to be a QB, it can be anybody. There appears to be some sort of "let's not tip our hand" mentality at play possibly, but at 3rd and less than a yard, it doesn't matter that the defense knows you're sneaking it.
 
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Drivesaitl

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Yup, fair enough. I'd love nothing more than to see Whyte nail a 50-yard game winning field goal on Monday and have me eating crow!

The one valid critique of Whyte is he doesn't have the longer range. While he can make those the % probably goes down and with present rules those are more risky now. You don't want to give opponents half a field to work with.

As mentioned I'm pretty happy how Whyte has handled both duties now and without it interrupting his game. 7/7 in last game and also doing the punting? Some kickers would struggle with the load. Hard as well to expect somebody to bang 50yarders when he's doing all the kicking.
 
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Kyle McMahon

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Personally I rather pound the **** out of Calgary then wait til the end of the game to win it.

Maybe 8 FG's to make it 24-0 would do.

Game goes to OT at 24-24 after Calgary scores three TDs with 2-point converts. We outgain them by 400 yards, but lose after kicking a field goal on our first OT possession after Calgary scored a touchdown on theirs. Maas claims after the game that he's fully aware of CFL OT procedure, and that he'd make the call again if put in a similar spot.
 

Kyle McMahon

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The one valid critique of Whyte is he doesn't have the longer range. While he can make those the % probably goes down and with present rules those are more risky now. You don't want to give opponents half a field to work with.

As mentioned I'm pretty happy how Whyte has handled both duties now and without it interrupting his game. 7/7 in last game and also doing the punting? Some kickers would struggle with the load. Hard as well to expect somebody to bang 50yarders when he's doing all the kicking.

This is something I'm not quite sure about, and I'd be interested to hear the opinions of actual kickers on. It used to be standard in this league that your kicker handled all kicking duties so you didn't need to spend two roster spots on them. There were exceptions, but for the most part the good kickers did both. The last 10-15 years this has changed and it's now a rarity to see one guy do both. I'm not a kicker obviously, but I wouldn't think workload is really something that should start to have a a negative effect. Even handling every single kick, that's still only going to be 15-20 boots over the course of three hours. I would assume they're kicking the ball many more times than that in practice every day. I could be wrong, but I don't think fatigue should come into play at this position.
 

bone

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This is something I'm not quite sure about, and I'd be interested to hear the opinions of actual kickers on. It used to be standard in this league that your kicker handled all kicking duties so you didn't need to spend two roster spots on them. There were exceptions, but for the most part the good kickers did both. The last 10-15 years this has changed and it's now a rarity to see one guy do both. I'm not a kicker obviously, but I wouldn't think workload is really something that should start to have a a negative effect. Even handling every single kick, that's still only going to be 15-20 boots over the course of three hours. I would assume they're kicking the ball many more times than that in practice every day. I could be wrong, but I don't think fatigue should come into play at this position.

It would be interesting. Though effect doesn't prove the cause it is interesting that we are looking at the position to be at least 90% efficient or we start to question (as per our back and forth over the last couple days) yet when guys handled both duties no one really batted an eye at a guy being 70-80%. And back then kicking beyond 50 was pretty much unheard of. You have to wonder if the accuracy and longer field goal range is tied to specialization and lower work load in game.
 
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bone

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On the Harris conversation...

As for the talk about the more conservative playcalling by Maas with Harris, I think it's a fair observation, but I've also noticed that as the season progresses, they are trying to push Harris a bit out of his comfort zone and the last couple games we are seeing more deep balls and even some surprises rushes by Harris. I think it's all by design personally. Maas was allowing him the comfort early but wants more as the season progresses. Harris has been successful completing when going deep, but has struggled hitting them in stride so no TD but big yards. Hopefully, the commitment will start paying off with scores instead of just big gainers.

Also with the short yardage. No doubt they've been terrible, but surprisingly, for 2nd down conversions 1-3 yards, they are best in the league at 85%. That just makes it baffling that they are only 68% for 3rd and short. So there's hope it can turn, and maybe the Ottawa game was just rock bottom. Since that game they are 4 for 5 (which is still not good enough) but it has been a bit better.
 
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Stoneman89

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Not all teams have a big bruiser like Mike Reilly as their starting QB that can finish off the short yardage plays. Many of them have a guy as a backup that is suited to coming in and doing that job. Winnipeg is a good example with Streveler. That is where Sunderland and/or Maas need to get someone else in there for the short yardage situations.
 
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Stoneman89

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I didn't think we had an issue with Whyte, but I missed the last game.

I could never wrap my head around why it was so hard to find a guy to kick FG's though. In high school we had a guy that was pretty much money inside 45. There was also that kid a few years ago in Edmonton that I thought was kicking 55 yarders consistently, not sure whatever happened to him.
 
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bone

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Not all teams have a big bruiser like Mike Reilly as their starting QB that can finish off the short yardage plays. Many of them have a guy as a backup that is suited to coming in and doing that job. Winnipeg is a good example with Streveler. That is where Sunderland and/or Maas need to get someone else in there for the short yardage situations.

I'm not opposed to that and it may very well come to that, but that's challenging as well because if you do that substitution, it gives the other team more time to catch their breath and bear down and also allows the other team to load up on the biggies so out comes a couple of the smaller DBs and in come your backup linemen or linebackers and the sneak becomes even tougher.

As I said earlier they have a pretty good conversation rate on 2nd and 3 or less, so if they keep working at it, it can still can get better without subbing Harris. Perhaps that strong 2nd and short stat is why they have been looking at shot-gun formations on third and short more often. Don't like it, as I'd prefer to ram it through them, but seeing the actual stats, it makes a little more sense.
 

Stoneman89

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I'm not opposed to that and it may very well come to that, but that's challenging as well because if you do that substitution, it gives the other team more time to catch their breath and bear down and also allows the other team to load up on the biggies so out comes a couple of the smaller DBs and in come your backup linemen or linebackers and the sneak becomes even tougher.

As I said earlier they have a pretty good conversation rate on 2nd and 3 or less, so if they keep working at it, it can still can get better without subbing Harris. Perhaps that strong 2nd and short stat is why they have been looking at shot-gun formations on third and short more often. Don't like it, as I'd prefer to ram it through them, but seeing the actual stats, it makes a little more sense.
I'm not sure the 2nd and short is a good comparison for the 3rd and short. On 2nd down, teams still need to be wary and cognizant of a longer play, so it can stretch them out a bit. On 3rd down, the options dwindle substantially, and defences also tend to bear down a lot more in that situation I think.
 

bone

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I'm not sure the 2nd and short is a good comparison for the 3rd and short. On 2nd down, teams still need to be wary and cognizant of a longer play, so it can stretch them out a bit. On 3rd down, the options dwindle substantially, and defences also tend to bear down a lot more in that situation I think.
Can't disagree with you on that. It does at least show that they can pound a couple yards if needed though many of those are likely passing plays as well, but 85% is a decent conversion rate (better than the league average on 3rd and short, but that is skewed by how bad Edmonton is)

Interestingly, lots of the frustration on the short game came after the Ottawa loss, but that also may have been the perfect storm as Ottawa has stopped the most 3rd and short this season even if you exclude the Eskimo game. Granted, Edmonton has failed 3rd and short the most in the league even excluding that game.
 

Stoneman89

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Maas adjusts, just not very well. He went from a deep throwing offense to a ball control offense because his QB changed. The problem is that he isn’t detail oriented enough to understand that you can’t go an entire quarters without throwing a single deep pattern. Ball control is great until the other defense collapses on your short routes.

He’s basically coaching at a mediocre level, which can bring good teams down.
I think he's plenty detailed enough, possibly too much and too complicated. I just don't think he's a very good situational thinker under pressure.
 

rboomercat90

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Game goes to OT at 24-24 after Calgary scores three TDs with 2-point converts. We outgain them by 400 yards, but lose after kicking a field goal on our first OT possession after Calgary scored a touchdown on theirs. Maas claims after the game that he's fully aware of CFL OT procedure, and that he'd make the call again if put in a similar spot.
Why am I not laughing at this?:huh:
 

Stoneman89

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Game goes to OT at 24-24 after Calgary scores three TDs with 2-point converts. We outgain them by 400 yards, but lose after kicking a field goal on our first OT possession after Calgary scored a touchdown on theirs. Maas claims after the game that he's fully aware of CFL OT procedure, and that he'd make the call again if put in a similar spot.
Having the Labour Day game go to OT would be a major victory in itself, given that the game is historically usually over by halftime. But I'm sure regardless, our coach will find someway to gas things.
 
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