ECHL Expansion

[mk80]

Austin Peay being involved in the project is interesting too, I don't much about the school but they do play NCAA D1 Athletics in the OVC, I would bet they wouldn't be involved if they don't have plans to use it for the home of their basketball program. But I wonder if they would consider adding ice hockey, with the help of the Preds.

 

[Predarat]

That is a very good point about pricing, it has went through the roof since 2017. Many cannot take families to games anymore. So this would be a good option. It does sound like Austin Peay is going to at least play some of their basketball games there, not sure if they all will be there or if they will split venues. One thing I noticed about the rendering, it looks all too similar on the inside to the Global Entertaining arenas in the 2000s.

 

[PCSPounder]

Auditorium District on track to meet $62 million construction cost

So a question. If you're a market growing faster than Rapid City, and maybe slightly less isolated than Rapid City, and are apparently about to start construction on an arena project with a 4,000-seat hockey arena, and have openly talked about a pro hockey team, are you angling for the ECHL?

The ingredients are there. I also have skepticism. This is a weird one.

 

[royals119]

Auditorium District on track to meet $62 million construction cost

So a question. If you're a market growing faster than Rapid City, and maybe slightly less isolated than Rapid City, and are apparently about to start construction on an arena project with a 4,000-seat hockey arena, and have openly talked about a pro hockey team, are you angling for the ECHL?

The ingredients are there. I also have skepticism. This is a weird one.

It would be good news for the Steelheads and Grizzlies.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Auditorium District on track to meet $62 million construction cost

So a question. If you're a market growing faster than Rapid City, and maybe slightly less isolated than Rapid City, and are apparently about to start construction on an arena project with a 4,000-seat hockey arena, and have openly talked about a pro hockey team, are you angling for the ECHL?

The ingredients are there. I also have skepticism. This is a weird one.

They only have two options: ECHL and WHL. Logistically, no other league would even look at them. Geographically fits the footprint of both leagues, albeit as an outpost team. 4,000 seat capacity is right in the range of both leagues.

WHL is seeing one team relocate for this upcoming season, and it’s Cranbrook to Winnipeg, and they’ve been vocally anti-expansion but okay on relocation if it’s a good fit.

ECHL has historically taken any warm body with a checkbook, but has been understandably more bullish after seeing only a handful of teams who have been around for more than 10 years. They didn’t expand last season and did well to make the league and its teams stronger.

Either way, to get a team, they’re going to need more than an arena. Plenty of markets have empty arenas, they’re nothing special. They need an ownership group that knows what they’re doing, with cash to burn, and a solid marketing plan. If they don’t have that, there’s zero chance that it will host high level hockey.

 

[PCSPounder]

Either way, to get a team, they’re going to need more than an arena. Plenty of markets have empty arenas, they’re nothing special. They need an ownership group that knows what they’re doing, with cash to burn, and a solid marketing plan. If they don’t have that, there’s zero chance that it will host high level hockey.

One thing I know about the Northwest... I can count on one hand the number of times in the last 30 years that a stadium or arena was built with public funds AND an identified owner that was loud about his intentions.

The baseball issue in Portland... there's supposed to be a whale investor, but said investor is hiding until the city gets everything in order... except the city won't go there.

I highly doubt that Idaho Falls just said "hey, let's build a hockey arena and pray for a team." There has to be someone behind this. Now, is this someone competent? One thing I do know is that competent minor pro hockey owners do not grow on cheat grass or sagebrush (which is about all that grows in Idaho Falls).

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

One thing I know about the Northwest... I can count on one hand the number of times in the last 30 years that a stadium or arena was built with public funds AND an identified owner that was loud about his intentions.

The baseball issue in Portland... there's supposed to be a whale investor, but said investor is hiding until the city gets everything in order... except the city won't go there.

I highly doubt that Idaho Falls just said "hey, let's build a hockey arena and pray for a team." There has to be someone behind this. Now, is this someone competent? One thing I do know is that competent minor pro hockey owners do not grow on cheat grass or sagebrush (which is about all that grows in Idaho Falls).

I agree with your assertion. There's been numerous links about it potentially hosting hockey, but I haven't seen anything indicative of a real plan. One article even mentions the potential hockey tenant being an amateur team: SNAKE RIVER LANDING IS EVOLVING INTO AN EVENT VENUE IN IDAHO FALLS

"Build it and they will come" isn't a sound strategy. It isn't a "can't miss" market with an arena on the smaller side in a location that suits only two leagues, neither of which are looking to put teams wherever they can. And I've never been to the Pacific northwest, but it doesn't symbolize a hockey hotbed.

I would even be okay without a potential owner leading to project or even being identified. In Trois-Rivières, a new arena is being constructed without a tenant identified. However, the maire hired a well-known and reputable company to find a tenant, with it being heavily rumored to house the future Canadiens EC team in their continued revamp of the prospect pipeline. There is a plan and they're going after tenants. This is much more effective than the current news out of Idaho Falls.

 

[Royalsflagrunner77]

I know the ECHL commissioner stated that they were more worried about solidifying current markets then expansion but if strong candidate appears the would visit it

 

[Captain Crash]

I agree with your assertion. There's been numerous links about it potentially hosting hockey, but I haven't seen anything indicative of a real plan. One article even mentions the potential hockey tenant being an amateur team: SNAKE RIVER LANDING IS EVOLVING INTO AN EVENT VENUE IN IDAHO FALLS

I wouldn't read too much into their use of the term "amateur" in that article. Technically speaking, the WHL is amateur. Moreover, people who aren't hockey diehards, journalists included, tend to use the terms minor, junior, semi-pro, and amateur interchangeably.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

I wouldn't read too much into their use of the term "amateur" in that article. Technically speaking, the WHL is amateur. Moreover, people who aren't hockey diehards, journalists included, tend to use the terms minor, junior, semi-pro, and amateur interchangeably.

That’s what I assumed when I saw amateur. I doubt they would try and get a Junior A franchise and become another Wenatchee. Geographically it could be WHL just as much as ECHL, albeit as an outpost team. The Dub certainly has several of those and is the most expansive major junior league. They’ve been vocally anti-expansion, yet allowing relocations if the situation is right, like was seen with Cranbrook and Chilliwack.

 

[PCSPounder]

If I didn't know any better, I'd be led to think that there are people who think the AHL should be a bus league and the WHL a jet league.

Maybe I don't know any better. Thus I can but laugh.

The only way Idaho Falls gets into the WHL...
- A team is placed in Great Falls, including a new arena, that does well enough to...
- ...induce placing a team in Butte or Bozeman with the same conditions...
- ...which, at least by the rumored league maximum distance between markets of a 4-hour drive, enables Idaho Falls

Butte would be highly regarded as a joke. Bozeman is a college town and that's generally not a good formula south of the 49th.

I did not mention Boise. Boise is actually out of range of Idaho Falls by the standards, and is out of range of Kennewick by the same standards. As I think Butte is a joke, while I might think it would be cool for Pendleton or La Grande (both in Oregon) to have a WHL team, La Grande is smaller than Swift Current and a small college town and Pendleton is as big as Swift Current and most certainly a rodeo town.

(NOTE: If you changed the 4-hour drive to 5-hour drive, the Boise link makes more sense, except Idaho Falls is still WAY out of the way of the US Division teams, so that's not happening. That does not change the Montana linkage issue.)

You may criticize my judgment of using a lot more words than just "Idaho Falls is out of the WHL footprint," but I just wanted to illustrate the orders of magnitude involved.

 

[Atlantian]

I believe that putting a team in this new arena in Idaho would help sure up the mountain division, which is something the ECHL wants. Easier travel for Idaho, Utah, and to a lesser extent, Rapid City is important to keeping the westernmost teams, two of the longest continuous ECHL teams, sustainable.

For other expansion, Clarkesville, TN is looing really good to the ECHL. IIRC, the arena would be fairly larger than a typical SPHL arena, making it the perfect fit, both size wise and geographically, for the ECHL to expand.

Next, I have not seen it talked about too much, but Savannah, GA is building a new 10k seat stadium with ice making capabilities. While it is prime SPHL territory, I think the ECHL would be making a huge mistake to not attempt to grab this market.

With the last two, you always have to worry about the FPHL getting in the way as they expand farther south.

 

[Captain Crash]

So let's say Idaho Falls joins the ECHL and Rapid City, Salt Lake City, and Boise are still in. Casper WY is practically the geographic center of that cluster. Casper has a larger metro and higher median income than Rapid City, and their arena was upgraded in 2014 to add an ice sheet for hockey. The recently defunct Casper Coyotes of the WSHL split their home games between the local community rink and the Casper Events Center, which seats about 9,000 for concerts (substantially less for hockey of course, but I'm unable to find an official capacity for the ice events).

When the ice upgrade to the Events Center was being planned, the CHL was pretty much a go to expand into Casper. Of course, the league collapsed before the arena was ready. Evidently nothing carried over to the ECHL. Assuming no ownership stepped forward? But Casper seems like it could be a good hockey market. The Coyotes were pretty well supported for many seasons and their folding seemed more to do with the WSHL's failed CH1L shenanigans. It's popular enough there that the city is looking to add another sheet to their community rink due to a lack of ice time. There's no other competition there for entertainment dollars. And the geography is actually pretty ideal for the Mountain Division.

 

[210]

Looks like it loses a lot of seats for hockey....
Photo Gallery | Casper Events Center

 

[Captain Crash]

Looks like it loses a lot of seats for hockey....
Photo Gallery | Casper Events Center

The Coyotes junior team were able to draw over 2,000 in, and anticipated crowds of over 4,000 before folding. So I'd assume that means it seats over 4,000 for hockey.

The picture on the official website threw me off too. It's certainly a strange look the way the rink was retrofitted in. But other angles show that they only lose a few rows in the hockey configuration, and still have thousands of seats remaining. Most likely more than 4,000.

(Side note: according to the above link, investors in Caspar actually looked at buying the Steelheads but balked at the price.)

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

If I didn't know any better, I'd be led to think that there are people who think the AHL should be a bus league and the WHL a jet league.

Maybe I don't know any better. Thus I can but laugh.

The only way Idaho Falls gets into the WHL...
- A team is placed in Great Falls, including a new arena, that does well enough to...
- ...induce placing a team in Butte or Bozeman with the same conditions...
- ...which, at least by the rumored league maximum distance between markets of a 4-hour drive, enables Idaho Falls

Butte would be highly regarded as a joke. Bozeman is a college town and that's generally not a good formula south of the 49th.

I did not mention Boise. Boise is actually out of range of Idaho Falls by the standards, and is out of range of Kennewick by the same standards. As I think Butte is a joke, while I might think it would be cool for Pendleton or La Grande (both in Oregon) to have a WHL team, La Grande is smaller than Swift Current and a small college town and Pendleton is as big as Swift Current and most certainly a rodeo town.

(NOTE: If you changed the 4-hour drive to 5-hour drive, the Boise link makes more sense, except Idaho Falls is still WAY out of the way of the US Division teams, so that's not happening. That does not change the Montana linkage issue.)

You may criticize my judgment of using a lot more words than just "Idaho Falls is out of the WHL footprint," but I just wanted to illustrate the orders of magnitude involved.

Prince George is equally as isolated as Idaho Falls. It's over barely an hour more from Prince George to their closest groups of opponents than Idaho Falls to their closest group of opponents, some of whom are in Canada. The WHL has been known to have outpost teams, certainly more than the other two leagues in the CHL. While the league certainly wouldn't actively pursue Idaho Falls, as there are far more desirable markets, it would fit geographically as a distant second to the ECHL.

So let's say Idaho Falls joins the ECHL and Rapid City, Salt Lake City, and Boise are still in. Casper WY is practically the geographic center of that cluster. Casper has a larger metro and higher median income than Rapid City, and their arena was upgraded in 2014 to add an ice sheet for hockey. The recently defunct Casper Coyotes of the WSHL split their home games between the local community rink and the Casper Events Center, which seats about 9,000 for concerts (substantially less for hockey of course, but I'm unable to find an official capacity for the ice events).

When the ice upgrade to the Events Center was being planned, the CHL was pretty much a go to expand into Casper. Of course, the league collapsed before the arena was ready. Evidently nothing carried over to the ECHL. Assuming no ownership stepped forward? But Casper seems like it could be a good hockey market. The Coyotes were pretty well supported for many seasons and their folding seemed more to do with the WSHL's failed CH1L shenanigans. It's popular enough there that the city is looking to add another sheet to their community rink due to a lack of ice time. There's no other competition there for entertainment dollars. And the geography is actually pretty ideal for the Mountain Division.

Casper Bobcats took over from the Coyotes, and they aren't faring nearly as well in the box office. While it is the WSHL, which is pretty low level hockey even as far as American juniors goes, if there was really enough weight behind the community being able to support hockey, the Bobcats would be propping up much better numbers than they would right now. While the market has the right characteristics, both with demographics, geography, and the arena, they're missing the two biggest factors the EC looks at: ownership and market capability to support hockey. As of right now, they have neither.

 

[PCSPounder]

Prince George is equally as isolated as Idaho Falls. It's over barely an hour more from Prince George to their closest groups of opponents than Idaho Falls to their closest group of opponents, some of whom are in Canada. The WHL has been known to have outpost teams, certainly more than the other two leagues in the CHL. While the league certainly wouldn't actively pursue Idaho Falls, as there are far more desirable markets, it would fit geographically as a distant second to the ECHL.

Prince George is NOT equally isolated.

From Idaho Falls, Spokane is 8 hours away, Kennewick is 8.5 hours out, and Lethbridge is 8.25 hours... all driving distances. Add to this: the mountain passes in Oregon are not that well maintained, and the Montana frontier isn't exactly different.

From Prince George, Kamloops is 5:45 away, Kelowna is 7:30 away, Edmonton is 7:40 away.

Casper Bobcats took over from the Coyotes, and they aren't faring nearly as well in the box office. While it is the WSHL, which is pretty low level hockey even as far as American juniors goes, if there was really enough weight behind the community being able to support hockey, the Bobcats would be propping up much better numbers than they would right now. While the market has the right characteristics, both with demographics, geography, and the arena, they're missing the two biggest factors the EC looks at: ownership and market capability to support hockey. As of right now, they have neither.

Casper- the "metropolis"- isn't even half the size of Rapid City or Idaho Falls. They are a case of building way too much arena for what they've generally had in there. For the old AWHL, that place would have been still too big (but so was the Metra in Billings), but at a proper market size and cost of operation. I won't even talk about the C1HL delusions of grandeur.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Prince George is NOT equally isolated.

From Idaho Falls, Spokane is 8 hours away, Kennewick is 8.5 hours out, and Lethbridge is 8.25 hours... all driving distances. Add to this: the mountain passes in Oregon are not that well maintained, and the Montana frontier isn't exactly different.

From Prince George, Kamloops is 5:45 away, Kelowna is 7:30 away, Edmonton is 7:40 away.

I see you went right to Google Maps. It’s a big bus traveling on BC Highway 97, one of the most dangerous and least maintained roadways in Canada that has 3 separate stretches with the highest auto accident counts in the country annually. That trip isn’t happening nearly as quick as it shows. Prince George has marginally better than Idaho Falls would.

 

[210]

The picture on the official website threw me off too. It's certainly a strange look the way the rink was retrofitted in. But other angles show that they only lose a few rows in the hockey configuration, and still have thousands of seats remaining. Most likely more than 4,000.

Wow, those pics look WAY different from the official site.

 

[Captain Crash]

Casper Bobcats took over from the Coyotes, and they aren't faring nearly as well in the box office. While it is the WSHL, which is pretty low level hockey even as far as American juniors goes, if there was really enough weight behind the community being able to support hockey, the Bobcats would be propping up much better numbers than they would right now. While the market has the right characteristics, both with demographics, geography, and the arena, they're missing the two biggest factors the EC looks at: ownership and market capability to support hockey. As of right now, they have neither.

Where were you able to find attendance numbers? They're not listed anywhere on the WSHL site, including the game sheets.

Regardless, there's a few things here. (1) This team was apparently thrown together last minute an didn't have the same marketing as the already established Coyotes. (2) The Bobcats played every home game in the Casper Ice Arena, which is a small community rink that seats less than 500. And (3) I don't think you can compare attendance of a renegade Tier 3 junior team (which is what it is, no matter what the WSHL insists on calling itself) which plays mostly in small rec rinks to mostly three digit crowds and doesn't rely on ticket revenue to the ECHL. If anything, the fact that the Coyotes were able to draw more than 2,000 to a game at times is a testament to the market's potential, not it's shortcomings.

 

[PCSPounder]

Where were you able to find attendance numbers? They're not listed anywhere on the WSHL site, including the game sheets.

Regardless, there's a few things here. (1) This team was apparently thrown together last minute an didn't have the same marketing as the already established Coyotes. (2) The Bobcats played every home game in the Casper Ice Arena, which is a small community rink that seats less than 500. And (3) I don't think you can compare attendance of a renegade Tier 3 junior team (which is what it is, no matter what the WSHL insists on calling itself) which plays mostly in small rec rinks to mostly three digit crowds and doesn't rely on ticket revenue to the ECHL. If anything, the fact that the Coyotes were able to draw more than 2,000 to a game at times is a testament to the market's potential, not it's shortcomings.

There's a bit of common sense at play here.

I've been to Medford on a night when they sold out the RRRink for the Southern Oregon Spartans (capacity 1,000). That seems to happen often on Saturdays and sometimes on Fridays. That's all $10 per ticket. So I get the occasional delusion of "hey, why not ECHL or our dream single A league here?" The key question becomes "how do you think they'll do at $30 a ticket?" By the way... the owners were trying to sell that team to a local buyer, and ended up selling to a couple from out of state at the last minute (closed two weeks ago) before the WSHL would have (theoretically) suspended the club for the next season. For someone doing bang-up ticket sales in theory, it's fair to ask why that was such a struggle. Oh, one more thing... Medford is a larger market than Casper.

 

[Captain Crash]

There's a bit of common sense at play here.

I've been to Medford on a night when they sold out the RRRink for the Southern Oregon Spartans (capacity 1,000). That seems to happen often on Saturdays and sometimes on Fridays. That's all $10 per ticket. So I get the occasional delusion of "hey, why not ECHL or our dream single A league here?" The key question becomes "how do you think they'll do at $30 a ticket?" By the way... the owners were trying to sell that team to a local buyer, and ended up selling to a couple from out of state at the last minute (closed two weeks ago) before the WSHL would have (theoretically) suspended the club for the next season. For someone doing bang-up ticket sales in theory, it's fair to ask why that was such a struggle. Oh, one more thing... Medford is a larger market than Casper.

I've been to a lot of ECHL games and never paid $30 for a ticket.

I also never claimed the Casper WSHL team(s) were doing "bang up ticket sales"-- that's you looking for a strawman for your misdirected "common sense" rant.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Where were you able to find attendance numbers? They're not listed anywhere on the WSHL site, including the game sheets.

Regardless, there's a few things here. (1) This team was apparently thrown together last minute an didn't have the same marketing as the already established Coyotes. (2) The Bobcats played every home game in the Casper Ice Arena, which is a small community rink that seats less than 500. And (3) I don't think you can compare attendance of a renegade Tier 3 junior team (which is what it is, no matter what the WSHL insists on calling itself) which plays mostly in small rec rinks to mostly three digit crowds and doesn't rely on ticket revenue to the ECHL. If anything, the fact that the Coyotes were able to draw more than 2,000 to a game at times is a testament to the market's potential, not it's shortcomings.

Bobcats were a last minute throw together team, but have the benefit good infrastructure by WSHL standards. I have watched a number of their games through Black Dog hockey, which is like FastHockey, and attendance is still solid for the league but isn’t anywhere near the 2,000 the Coyotes saw. The league stopped keeping track of attendance in maybe 2016 for some reason. El Paso is still far and above everyone else.

 

[Captain Crash]

Bobcats were a last minute throw together team, but have the benefit good infrastructure by WSHL standards. I have watched a number of their games through Black Dog hockey, which is like FastHockey, and attendance is still solid for the league but isn’t anywhere near the 2,000 the Coyotes saw. The league stopped keeping track of attendance in maybe 2016 for some reason. El Paso is still far and above everyone else.

As I stated in the post you quoted:

(2) The Bobcats played every home game in the Casper Ice Arena, which is a small community rink that seats less than 500.

Pretty tough to draw 2,000 when capacity is under 500, don't you think?

 

[JMCx4]

I've been to a lot of ECHL games and never paid $30 for a ticket. ...

Yet many others have. To wit: Feb. 2018, $30.75 per seat for top of lower bowl near center ice at Amway Center-Orlando; Dec. 2018, $32 per seat for top of lower bowl near blueline at Indiana Farmers Coliseum-Indianapolis. ECHL ain't always cheap hockey.