ECHL announces Lake Tahoe expansion team for 2024-25 owned by Tim Tebow

[MMC]

Click to read more...

 

[LadyStanley]

 

[Bostonzamboni]

Nice to see the game grow in such places!

 

[BattleBorn]

I don't know if it matters at all with regard to the affiliation of the new Tahoe team, but Tebow is currently part of the ownership group of VGK's current ECHL affiliate in Savannah.

 

[Brodie]

sure why not

 

[TheGreenTBer]

How are ECHL employees going to afford living around Lake Tahoe?

 

[BattleBorn]

How are ECHL employees going to afford living around Lake Tahoe?

25-35 minute drive from Carson City, Gardnerville, etc.

There's a pretty decent employee base making that trip already every day and it's not as far from Reno/CC as people would expect it to be.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

Tim Tebow...now that's a name I'd prefer to never hear again.

 

[GKJ]

I was surprised to learn enough people lived in the area full time to do this. I know Carson City isn’t *far* but it is still an hour away.

 

[pbgoalie]

Wonder how many games will get postponed due to snowstorms

 

[ujju2]

Having been born in Reno this is awesome. Wish it was a Reno team though.

 

[bigdog16]

Will people travel an hour to go to an ECHL game? That seems outrageous.

Not sure the following will be there. Will be a sweet place for players to play though

 

[Big McLargehuge]

I was surprised to learn enough people lived in the area full time to do this. I know Carson City isn’t *far* but it is still an hour away.

I mean...just because they're going to do it doesn't mean there actually is enough people there to make it work.

Carson City being a 45-60 minute drive would mean more if the entirety of it didn't equate to one mid-sized suburb and account for the bulk of the region's population.

The ECHL has smaller cities in it that have worked for long periods of time, but they all pretty much have population centers around them to attract from. Wheeling would have no hope of surviving as long as it has if not for it being effectively the western extreme of Pittsburgh's metro. I went to multiple Nailers games as a kid for one reason and one reason alone: affordability.

Of course this is an incredibly wealthy area, so I'd imagine the road to profitability isn't as absurd as it could be...but look at the population of the towns directly around the arena (2010 census data).
Stateline - 842
South Lake Tahoe - 21,330
Round Hill Village - 759
Zephyr Cove - 565
Skyland - 376
Lakeridge - 371
Logan Creek - 26
Glenbrook - 215

Basically everyone on the California side lives in South Lake Tahoe (the rest is mostly unincorporated) and the Nevada side has basically no population centers until Carson City. Carson City isn't that far, but it is far enough to affect sales. It's no coincidence that the number of Dodgers games I go to quadrupled when I went from being ~45 minutes from the stadium to ~15, with the inverse being true of Staples/Crypto.com Arena.

The play is clearly tourism-based, which I really question the merits of at this level.

 

[GKJ]

I mean...just because they're going to do it doesn't mean there actually is enough people there to make it work.

Carson City being a 45-60 minute drive would mean more if the entirety of it didn't equate to one mid-sized suburb and account for the bulk of the region's population.

The ECHL has smaller cities in it that have worked for long periods of time, but they all pretty much have population centers around them to attract from. Wheeling would have no hope of surviving as long as it has if not for it being effectively the western extreme of Pittsburgh's metro. I went to multiple Nailers games as a kid for one reason and one reason alone: affordability.

Of course this is an incredibly wealthy area, so I'd imagine the road to profitability isn't as absurd as it could be...but look at the population of the towns directly around the arena (2010 census data).
Stateline - 842
South Lake Tahoe - 21,330
Round Hill Village - 759
Zephyr Cove - 565
Skyland - 376
Lakeridge - 371
Logan Creek - 26
Glenbrook - 215

Basically everyone on the California side lives in South Lake Tahoe (the rest is mostly unincorporated) and the Nevada side has basically no population centers until Carson City. Carson City isn't that far, but it is far enough to affect sales. It's no coincidence that the number of Dodgers games I go to quadrupled when I went from being ~45 minutes from the stadium to ~15, with the inverse being true of Staples/Crypto.com Arena.

The play is clearly tourism-based, which I really question the merits of at this level.

Yeah, that’s where I was headed with tourism. I don’t know if I’ve ever heard of that working, or attempted.

What’s the capacity of the building?

 

[Big McLargehuge]

Yeah, that’s where I was headed with tourism. I don’t know if I’ve ever heard of that working, or attempted.

What’s the capacity of the building?

4,200 "plus" is the number I've seen. Would be the smallest in the league with Trois-Rivières being similarly sized (4,390). Adirondack is the only other team with a barn under 5k.

FWIW average attendance was 4,630 league-wide in 22-23 and 4,200 is a smaller figure than 14 of 28 teams averaged.

 

[GKJ]

4,200 "plus" is the number I've seen. Would be the smallest in the league with Trois-Rivières being similarly sized (4,390). Adirondack is the only other team with a barn under 5k.

FWIW average attendance was 4,630 league-wide in 22-23 and 4,200 is a smaller figure than 14 of 28 teams averaged.

Yeah, I wouldn’t go much higher than that

 

[Big McLargehuge]

Yeah, I wouldn’t go much higher than that

Me neither. There's a glut of teams averaging 3,500 a game and there just isn't the population to justify 5k+.

There's a road to viability here...Wheeling and Iowa are under 2k a game for crying out loud, but profitability seems dubious.

 

[GKJ]

Me neither. There's a glut of teams averaging 3,500 a game and there just isn't the population to justify 5k+.

There's a road to viability here...Wheeling and Iowa are under 2k a game for crying out loud, but profitability seems dubious.

Some of these places just want the dates because in reality it’s a real estate play and they just need enough for expenses.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Whats the average size of ECHL market? Probably smaller than AHL.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

Whats the average size of ECHL market? Probably smaller than AHL.

Eh...there's work I need to be doing, but I could just procrastinate by compiling some useless data that probably already exists elsewhere...

Hard to really say as many are on the periphery of metropolitan areas and any sort of averaging is warped by the few teams in larger regions. Wheeling itself is incredibly small, but it's the western extent of the Pittsburgh metropolitan area. I'll try to limit things to just the smaller metropolitan areas when possible (i.e. not counting Pittsburgh for Wheeling), but the bigger cities with suburban teams really wreck the curve.

Team	City Population	Urban Agglomeration	Metropolitan Area Population
Adirondack (Glens Falls, NY)	14,830		128,774
Allen (Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex)	104,627		7,637,387
Atlanta (Duluth, GA)	31,873		6,144,050
Boise	235,684	433,180	764,718
Cincinnati	309,317	1,686,744	2,265,051
Florida (Estero, FL - suburb of Ft. Myers)	36,939		760,822
Fort Wayne	265,974	335,934	423,038
Greenville	70,720	387,271	928,195
Indianapolis	887,642	1,699,881	2,111,040
Iowa (Coralville, IO - suburb of Iowa City)	22,318		171,491
Jacksonville	949,611	1,247,374	1,733,937
Kalamazoo	73,598	204,562	261,108
Kansas City (Independence, MO)	123,011		2,192,035
Maine (Portland, ME)	68,408	205,356	556,893
Newfoundland (St. John's NL)	110,525	178,427	205,955
Norfolk	238,005	1,047,869	1,725,246
Orlando	307,573	1,853,896	2,691,925
Rapid City	74,703	81,251	144,558
Reading	95,112	276,278	428,849
Savannah	147,780	309,466	404,798
South Carolina (N. Charleston, SC - Charleston metro)	114,852	684,773	799,636
Toledo	268,508	497,952	608,145
Trois-Rivières	139,163	128,057	161,489
Tulsa	413,066	722,810	1,023,988
Utah (West Valley City - suburb of Salt Lake City)	140,230		1,257,936
Wheeling	27,062	81,249	145,205
Wichita	397,532	500,231	647,919
Worcester	206,518	482,085	978,529

By any metric Adirondack is the smallest current market and is probably the closest comparison you can make - down to them both being the ski destination for the wealthy a few hours from major population centers that once saw the Americans winning Olympic gold in the region). One major difference is that Adirondack has decades of history hosting minor league hockey. This will be the first professional team in any sport to call Tahoe home.

 

[LadyStanley]

Sharks pundit Curtis Pashelka wondered if Sharks might affiliate with this new team (when they announced one year extension to Thunder affiliation). VGK essentially own/control the Ghost Pirates so I don't know they are looking to change affiliation.

Having a Sharks affiliation might boost attendance too.

 

[GindyDraws]

Me neither. There's a glut of teams averaging 3,500 a game and there just isn't the population to justify 5k+.

There's a road to viability here...Wheeling and Iowa are under 2k a game for crying out loud, but profitability seems dubious.

Wheeling is mostly a civic thing, where there are government jobs at the arena, so it doesn't matter about the attendance. Iowa, however, is the problem, as it's a new arena but bad performance on ice has resulted in awful attendance, so I'm not sure how much longer that lasts.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

Wheeling is mostly a civic thing, where there are government jobs at the arena, so it doesn't matter about the attendance. Iowa, however, is the problem, as it's a new arena but bad performance on ice has resulted in awful attendance, so I'm not sure how much longer that lasts.

Oh 100% with Wheeling. There's external forces at work keeping that team there, as there should be. There's advantages that go far beyond mediocre attendance numbers. At least as long as they can keep above 2k a game in normal conditions there's enough to justify the costs for what they bring to the community.


I'm not familiar enough with Iowa to speak much on it...but that figure blew my mind for a team in their second season in a brand new building. There's definitely factors affecting things there (launching a franchise during covid certainly isn't ideal)...but still. They only outdrew Wheeling by 300 in their inaugural season and then saw their attendance drop slightly in year 2, while Wheeling went up 500 per game. That's...worrying.

edit: typo

 

[PCSPounder]

I'm not familiar enough with Iowa to speak much on it...but that figure blew my mind for a team in their second arena in a brand new building. There's definitely factors affecting things there (launching a franchise during covid certainly isn't ideal)...but still. They only outdrew Wheeling by 300 in their inaugural season and then saw their attendance drop slightly in year 2, while Wheeling went up 500 per game. That's...worrying.

I wouldn’t worry. I think the college town effect is at play here. And maybe Coralville built something the U of Iowa can eventually take over.

Not to discount the COVID issue. And I know there’s a theory at play that, because the university doesn’t have hockey, that a niche could be carved out. But is Iowa City large enough?

But I’ll put it this way. That Salem-to-AFL news (driving distance from me < 1 hour) came out earlier yesterday and our house is trying to find the holes in the proposal. I just mentioned the Tahoe news and my wife is all “when are we going?!”

 

[MMC]