EA Shuts Down Visceral

[DrFeelgood]

Bioware isn't going anywhere, their studio is in a favorable location financially and the games they make still sell big time. They would need to have multiple releases (like 4-5) with awful sales in order to be closed down.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Bioware isn't going anywhere, their studio is in a favorable location financially and the games they make still sell big time. They would need to have multiple releases (like 4-5) with awful sales in order to be closed down.

Not really if ea wanted 20 million but bioware got 19.5 they would be shut down

But they haven’t really sold big time ever so I don’t know what your point there is. And andromeda sold terrible which is all it takes for something to start a downward spiral.

I expect anthem to underwhelm and if that doesn’t end it. Dragon age 4 likely will as that game doesn’t have much hope after laidlaw left

 

[RandV]

Bioware isn't going anywhere, their studio is in a favorable location financially and the games they make still sell big time. They would need to have multiple releases (like 4-5) with awful sales in order to be closed down.

Yeah it's hard to see Bioware getting shut down... but I really doubt they've been living up to EA's expectations recently. Trying to look up the numbers, seems EA has been a bit coy with these sales figures, but using vgchartz.com they list Inquisition with 4.93M and Andromeda at 1.88M. Then there's The Old Republic MMO which they must have sunk a ton into, yet only listed with 2.97M sales and went free-to-play a long time ago.

So that could be 3 of your 4-5 "awful sales". And it really must be rubbing salt in the wounds how badly they're getting their asses kicked by the competition like Bethesda and CD Projekt. When EA bought Bioware they were a marquee brand, and EA probably had designs on making them one of their heavy hitters like Madden or Battlefield.

Except under their leadership, between Dragon Age 2, the Mass Effect 3 fiasco, and turning the Old Repbulic into an MMO, all that goodwill has been flushed away and now Bioware is more of an afterthought. I'd imagine these games being Origin exclusive doesn't help either, since as they age they're not being seen by exclusive Steam users waiting for big sales to pick older games up.

 

[DrFeelgood]

Not really if ea wanted 20 million but bioware got 19.5 they would be shut down

But they haven’t really sold big time ever so I don’t know what your point there is. And andromeda sold terrible which is all it takes for something to start a downward spiral.

I expect anthem to underwhelm and if that doesn’t end it. Dragon age 4 likely will as that game doesn’t have much hope after laidlaw left

The whole Mass Effect series has been huge for EA, they bought Bioware just before ME1 was ported over to PC (I worked on it). Dragon Age has also been massively profitable over its lifetime. They also wouldn't shut down Bioware over a 500k delta in sales, though I think you're being somewhat sarcastic. It would have to massively disappoint (like 5 million sales vs 8-10 million expected) over the course of multiple titles for them to even consider it. Bioware is in the favorable position if being in a very inexpensive studio, so they will be given a lot of leeway.

Yeah it's hard to see Bioware getting shut down... but I really doubt they've been living up to EA's expectations recently. Trying to look up the numbers, seems EA has been a bit coy with these sales figures, but using vgchartz.com they list Inquisition with 4.93M and Andromeda at 1.88M. Then there's The Old Republic MMO which they must have sunk a ton into, yet only listed with 2.97M sales and went free-to-play a long time ago.

So that could be 3 of your 4-5 "awful sales". And it really must be rubbing salt in the wounds how badly they're getting their asses kicked by the competition like Bethesda and CD Projekt. When EA bought Bioware they were a marquee brand, and EA probably had designs on making them one of their heavy hitters like Madden or Battlefield.

Except under their leadership, between Dragon Age 2, the Mass Effect 3 fiasco, and turning the Old Repbulic into an MMO, all that goodwill has been flushed away and now Bioware is more of an afterthought. I'd imagine these games being Origin exclusive doesn't help either, since as they age they're not being seen by exclusive Steam users waiting for big sales to pick older games up.

vgchartz is notorously incorrect because EA doesn't report its digital sales, which is a huge majority of their business. Looking up a couple of games that i've worked on where I know what the actual sales figures are (because that info was shared internally), it's way way way off. In Anthem disappoints, it will be a tough blow for them but they won't get shut down over it. I would expect them to put something out from an existing IP to make up for any losses. If those ones sag in sales, then they would be in a bind. Despite what the common belief out there is, EA doesn't like to kill of studios. They only do it when it makes financial sense to do so.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

The whole Mass Effect series has been huge for EA, they bought Bioware just before ME1 was ported over to PC (I worked on it). Dragon Age has also been massively profitable over its lifetime. They also wouldn't shut down Bioware over a 500k delta in sales, though I think you're being somewhat sarcastic. It would have to massively disappoint (like 5 million sales vs 8-10 million expected) over the course of multiple titles for them to even consider it. Bioware is in the favorable position if being in a very inexpensive studio, so they will be given a lot of leeway.



vgchartz is notorously incorrect because EA doesn't report its digital sales, which is a huge majority of their business. Looking up a couple of games that i've worked on where I know what the actual sales figures are (because that info was shared internally), it's way way way off. In Anthem disappoints, it will be a tough blow for them but they won't get shut down over it. I would expect them to put something out from an existing IP to make up for any losses. If those ones sag in sales, then they would be in a bind. Despite what the common belief out there is, EA doesn't like to kill of studios. They only do it when it makes financial sense to do so.

I’m pretty sure the best digital sales can do is 1 mil for a bit. To me because no site tracks digital sales (except steamspy sort of?). I just assume it got close to 1 mil if it’s triple a unless it gets really bad reviews

Sony said crash and horizon got 1 mil or something in digital sales so until that changes to 2 i think it’s safe to say most games get 1 mil

 

[DrFeelgood]

I’m pretty sure the best digital sales can do is 1 mil for a bit. To me because no site tracks digital sales (except steamspy sort of?). I just assume it got close to 1 mil if it’s triple a unless it gets really bad reviews

Sony said crash and horizon got 1 mil or something in digital sales so until that changes to 2 i think it’s safe to say most games get 1 mil

Those are both PS4 exclusives, EA ships their games on 3 platforms (we were doing 5 platforms for a couple of years). 1 mil in digital sales is way underestimating those games.

EA as a company generated $4.4 billion in revenue in 2016, a little over half of that was in digital revenue.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Those are both PS4 exclusives, EA ships their games on 3 platforms (we were doing 5 platforms for a couple of years). 1 mil in digital sales is way underestimating those games.

EA as a company generated $4.4 billion in revenue in 2016, a little over half of that was in digital revenue.

IGN reported that Star Wars battlefront sold 14 million copies across all platforms. Retail sales were like 11-12 million. I imagine the number didn’t go up too much. Digital isn’t that big yet on consoles though it’s getting there.

 

[Bjorn Le]

There is zero chance Bioware would ever get shutdown. They would be put up for sale or spun off before that happens. Vgchartz was off 6-7 years ago, they're not even worth mentioning now.

 

[CartographerNo611]

After playing Inquisition, Andromeda, and now seeing that generic Titan Fall clone... would not shed a tear if Bioware was closed and absorbed into EA. Maybe they can make KOTOR 3 featuring Caitlyn Jenner and Richard Simmons as a going out wimper party.

 

[RandV]

There is zero chance Bioware would ever get shutdown. They would be put up for sale or spun off before that happens. Vgchartz was off 6-7 years ago, they're not even worth mentioning now.

I didn't bring up vgchartz as some authority on sales figures. I don't care to use any specific source but rather I was just trying to google some sales figures for EA and that was about the only hit, as EA seems pretty vague and secretive about how well these games did. Does vgc only record retail sales for all games though? Because they're just retail numbers and those are accurate then at least you can compare how well a game did against it's competition.

The point I was trying to make though is while it's hard to see a future where Bioware is shut down, under EA's stewardship they've certainly lost their Teflon status. Bioware used to be a developer that was highly regarded among gamers but only sold modestly well, then started showing potential for big sales with the Mass Effect series and were bought by EA. That potential never really took off, and now they're not so well regarded anymore. I don't think EA is that interested in putting big budget funding and full marketing support for games that only sell so-so. This is getting to the area where smaller devs bought up by EA find their heads on the chopping block... just like Visceral Games.

 

[Bjorn Le]

I didn't bring up vgchartz as some authority on sales figures. I don't care to use any specific source but rather I was just trying to google some sales figures for EA and that was about the only hit, as EA seems pretty vague and secretive about how well these games did. Does vgc only record retail sales for all games though? Because they're just retail numbers and those are accurate then at least you can compare how well a game did against it's competition.

The point I was trying to make though is while it's hard to see a future where Bioware is shut down, under EA's stewardship they've certainly lost their Teflon status. Bioware used to be a developer that was highly regarded among gamers but only sold modestly well, then started showing potential for big sales with the Mass Effect series and were bought by EA. That potential never really took off, and now they're not so well regarded anymore. I don't think EA is that interested in putting big budget funding and full marketing support for games that only sell so-so. This is getting to the area where smaller devs bought up by EA find their heads on the chopping block... just like Visceral Games.

Almost nobody is a developer that is highly regarded. There isn’t a major AAA release that doesn’t get criticized at release, and most are pretty heavily criticized. Some exclusives get insulated for equally biased reasons but the the market today has a very vocal minority finds something to attack. What you describe about Bioware can be said about Bethesda, Rockstar, Blizzard, etc. I blame it on the toxic demographic who supported Gamergate more than I would studios declining.

Visceral no offence was never Bioware. Not even close, and it took two commercially disapointments/failures and an ostensibly troubled development (in EA/Disney’s eyes at least) to kill them. Bioware deserves much of the credit for bringing wRPGs into the AAA mainstream and has never had a commercial failure from their main team. Anthem won’t fail and I imagine EA is going to learn from their lesson with ME:A and be much more careful about whom gets the game before release and what will be seen in easy access. Much of ME:A’s criticism was overblown and sensationalized by a vocal minority. Journalists have outright admitted that user reception affects their reviews, and Andromeda suffered as a result.

Overall to me it’s just a bad comparison. A studio as big, stable, and historically successful as Bioware has never been shut down. EA can justify to their shareholders a reason for Visceral, but you can be sure their stock would plummet if they shuttered Bioware.

 

[DrFeelgood]

I didn't bring up vgchartz as some authority on sales figures. I don't care to use any specific source but rather I was just trying to google some sales figures for EA and that was about the only hit, as EA seems pretty vague and secretive about how well these games did. Does vgc only record retail sales for all games though? Because they're just retail numbers and those are accurate then at least you can compare how well a game did against it's competition.

The point I was trying to make though is while it's hard to see a future where Bioware is shut down, under EA's stewardship they've certainly lost their Teflon status. Bioware used to be a developer that was highly regarded among gamers but only sold modestly well, then started showing potential for big sales with the Mass Effect series and were bought by EA. That potential never really took off, and now they're not so well regarded anymore. I don't think EA is that interested in putting big budget funding and full marketing support for games that only sell so-so. This is getting to the area where smaller devs bought up by EA find their heads on the chopping block... just like Visceral Games.

Visceral wasn't a small dev that was bought up by EA, we were a dev team that were on-site at the company headquarters and took on an official name (we were EA Redwood Shores until just after the release of Dead Space 1). We were owned an operated by EA from Day 1.

Also, Mass Effect 2 and 3 and the Dragon Age games have done pretty well for Bioware while under EA. The company doesn't have a problem putting big finances behind them for marketing and publishing because they are at a low cost studio. Visceral's biggest downfall was the fact that it was, by far, the most expensive studio in the company. Dev teams that have been closed by EA follow a similar blueprint: high cost studios and/or bad performers. Bioware isn't on the level of like Pandemic when it comes to a bad performer. It wasn't so bad when Visceral was officially formed in 2009-10 and the economy was in a slump but the economy is thriving in the Bay Area now and costs have been hitting the studio hard. We were on borrowed time unless we were able to put out some huge blockbuster hit for a good ROI for the company.

 

[KingBran]

There is zero chance Bioware would ever get shutdown. They would be put up for sale or spun off before that happens. Vgchartz was off 6-7 years ago, they're not even worth mentioning now.

That's totally false. There is always a chance and there are big, HUGE companies that people thought would never go away and they have. I don't think Bioware is going anywhere anytime soon but to say there is "zero chance Bioware would ever get shutdown."

Ummm yeah, there definitely is a chance it could happen to any company.
I am sure some people never thought LucasArts, Midway, Kojima, Lionhead, Acclaim (and a ton of others) would never close back in their hay-day.

But right now, I agree it's not going to happen anytime soon.

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

Bullfrog, at the time, was one of the largest video game companies out there. So was Origin Systems. And look at what EA did to them.



So I don't think Bioware is too large for them to be killed. If anything, Bioware is right in the current wheelhouse.

 

[Bjorn Le]

That's totally false. There is always a chance and there are big, HUGE companies that people thought would never go away and they have. I don't think Bioware is going anywhere anytime soon but to say there is "zero chance Bioware would ever get shutdown."

Ummm yeah, there definitely is a chance it could happen to any company.
I am sure some people never thought LucasArts, Midway, Kojima, Lionhead, Acclaim (and a ton of others) would never close back in their hay-day.

But right now, I agree it's not going to happen anytime soon.

The difference is there is no legitimate reason for EA to close them and it’s just conjecture. Big companies go away but never out of the blue. It always turns out that they had been seriously in trouble for a lot longer. There is nothing to suggest this is true with Bioware. Andromeda was made by a team that for all intents and purposes was not Bioware. It had some of their staff but was in a new office with a mostly new staff. It also didn’t bomb entirely. SWTOR went free to play quickly but by all accounts that was always the intention and the game made their money back within the first year. SWTOR was also Bioware proper. The only games Bioware’s main studio has made in the past 15 years that weren’t financial successes were Dragon Age 2 (and it didn’t do that bad) and Jade Empire (which was a critical success). It would take a string of failures and bad games to end the studio. Visceral wasn’t big enough or well known enough to get the insulation Bioware has.

Bullfrog had been declining since EA bought them and Molyneux had left. Not comparable. Origin died because of how new the MMO genre was and the inexperience EA had in managing it. Not similar at all to Bioware at all.

 

[KingBran]

Right now I agree Nullus. But the same can be said for many companies that did eventually shut down at one point or another. As someone who has been through quite a few layoffs in the video game industry you just never know.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

The difference is there is no legitimate reason for EA to close them and it’s just conjecture. Big companies go away but never out of the blue. It always turns out that they had been seriously in trouble for a lot longer. There is nothing to suggest this is true with Bioware. Andromeda was made by a team that for all intents and purposes was not Bioware. It had some of their staff but was in a new office with a mostly new staff. It also didn’t bomb entirely. SWTOR went free to play quickly but by all accounts that was always the intention and the game made their money back within the first year. SWTOR was also Bioware proper. The only games Bioware’s main studio has made in the past 15 years that weren’t financial successes were Dragon Age 2 (and it didn’t do that bad) and Jade Empire (which was a critical success). It would take a string of failures and bad games to end the studio. Visceral wasn’t big enough or well known enough to get the insulation Bioware has.

Bullfrog had been declining since EA bought them and Molyneux had left. Not comparable. Origin died because of how new the MMO genre was and the inexperience EA had in managing it. Not similar at all to Bioware at all.

I mean Bioware has been declining since Ea got them. Mass effect and dragon age were games already finished really. Mass effect 2 was good. Then you have dragon age 2 flop. Mass effect andromeda flop. Dragon age inquisition which wasn’t really anything and then mass effect 3 while not a flop got a ton of hate.

A ton of important people of left. Mike laidlaw. Probably the biggest guy on the dragon age team. The lead animator for anthem is gone. Flynn likely got forced out by EA

One of the guys on the andromeda team said that the offices were pretty bad (but then again this guy is a total dbag and was a small cog) but with everyone leaving I’m not too sure that bioware is happy sunshine valley

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Mass Effect 3 got hate because of how they structured the ending for what the first 99% of the game was. The story and gameplay up until the ending was fantastic. And they ended up somewhat making amends with the extended cut DLC (free DLC). If anything you could call that an anomaly because the third game had such a great foundation to build from. DA:2, DA:I, and ME:A didn't really have the strong foundation because they were all based on completely different protagonists than their predecessors.

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

ME2 and 3 were fantastic games. However, the last two Dragon Age games didn't do a whole lot for the company and neither did Andromeda. If anything, I think those games show the downfall of Bioware (or starting to).

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Mass Effect 3 got hate because of how they structured the ending for what the first 99% of the game was. The story and gameplay up until the ending was fantastic. And they ended up somewhat making amends with the extended cut DLC (free DLC). If anything you could call that an anomaly because the third game had such a great foundation to build from. DA:2, DA:I, and ME:A didn't really have the strong foundation because they were all based on completely different protagonists than their predecessors.

That will be everything mac Walters had a good say in though. It’s his track record as long as he’s a lead writer the story will be good or pretty good but the ending will just make zero sense to everything. This dates all the way back

 

[Bjorn Le]

I mean Bioware has been declining since Ea got them. Mass effect and dragon age were games already finished really. Mass effect 2 was good. Then you have dragon age 2 flop. Mass effect andromeda flop. Dragon age inquisition which wasn’t really anything and then mass effect 3 while not a flop got a ton of hate.

A ton of important people of left. Mike laidlaw. Probably the biggest guy on the dragon age team. The lead animator for anthem is gone. Flynn likely got forced out by EA

One of the guys on the andromeda team said that the offices were pretty bad (but then again this guy is a total dbag and was a small cog) but with everyone leaving I’m not too sure that bioware is happy sunshine valley

Declining according to who? Sales wise, that’s most definitely not true. DAI sold a lot more than DAO, and ME2 and ME3 did better than the first. Critically, it isn’t true either. ME2 and ME3 are some of the highest rated games of all time, and if people stop bitching about the ending, both ME2 and ME3 have legitimate arguments for being some of the best games of all time.

People leave all the time. Amy Hennig left Naughty Dog and they’re not declining. Many of the people who led Bioware had been there for a long time and were moving on in a natural progression. They’ve had old personnel come back as well. Drew Karpayshyn, who wrote KOTOR, Mass Effect, Dragon Age Origins, is back and is working on Anthem for example.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Declining according to who? Sales wise, that’s most definitely not true. DAI sold a lot more than DAO, and ME2 and ME3 did better than the first. Critically, it isn’t true either. ME2 and ME3 are some of the highest rated games of all time, and if people stop *****ing about the ending, both ME2 and ME3 have legitimate arguments for being some of the best games of all time.

People leave all the time. Amy Hennig left Naughty Dog and they’re not declining. Many of the people who led Bioware had been there for a long time and were moving on in a natural progression. They’ve had old personnel come back as well. Drew Karpayshyn, who wrote KOTOR, Mass Effect, Dragon Age Origins, is back and is working on Anthem for example.

Yeah most good sequels always sell more then the first installment. ME3 paid some reviewers to give it a good score whats your point? Not a flop but higher then it should be. Amy Hennig isn’t like 5 key guys. Casey Hudson himself when he came back said he hasn’t liked the direction bioware has been heading.

And id like to see where you saw that inquisition sold way more then origins I know it sold well it launch but nobody said anything after.

 

[Bjorn Le]

Yeah most good sequels always sell more then the first installment. ME3 paid some reviewers to give it a good score whats your point? Not a flop but higher then it should be. Amy Hennig isn’t like 5 key guys. Casey Hudson himself when he came back said he hasn’t liked the direction bioware has been heading.

And id like to see where you saw that inquisition sold way more then origins I know it sold well it launch but nobody said anything after.

Lmao you can’t be serious. There is no such thing as buying scores, given that review sites are obsessed with being in line with what popular opinion says. Which is why ME:A had much higher mock review scores (which are statistically in line with the real ones that come out after) than what actually happened. ME3 was near flawless game. Bioware hasn’t lost five people of similar importance to Hennig.

We would have seen reports if it sold worse, namely that the series was being put on hold, or DLC slowing down. The game was supported for a year in a time where companies are hypersensitive to this sort of thing and significantly scale back support of sales don’t meet expectations.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Mass Effect 2 and 3 were great.

Everything else Bioware has made since Dragon Age: Origins has been painfully mediocre.

 

[Commander Clueless]

I'm a huge BioWare fanboy.

I think there's a very good chance they get shut down if the value of their brand continues to drop. It'd take years, but it's still very possible IMO.

Problem is, BioWare is losing what made them special. Trying to mold their games from rich adventures into generic crowd pleasers is what, ironically enough, is souring the opinions of their fan base. Well that and the myriad of other problems with Andromeda didn't help.

I hope Anthem is a return to form, but I'm pessimistic.