GDT: Ducks @ Red Wings - 430pm PT - Most Important Game of the Season #58

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The Duck Knight

Henry, you're our only hope!
Feb 6, 2012
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There's no way Fowler is in that discussion playing like he has this year
Guys that are better IMO.

Karlsson
Doughty
Burns
Subban
Hedman
Byfuglien
Suter
Petro
Parayko
Gio
Ekblad
Keith
Jones
OEL
Vlasic
Slavin
McDonagh
Hamilton
Carlson
Josi


That's 20. Then there's Werenski/Lindholm/Fowler/Rielly/Trouba/Brodie. And I think how "bad" Fowler has been this year is being greatly over exaggerated. His weaknesses are just being magnified by terrible coaching and an awful partner.
 

Arthuros

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Feb 24, 2014
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Other thing that bothers me, at this point with the defense as awful as it has been there is really no excuse for lindholm+manson to be under 22 mins in any games, they should really be closer to 24-25 mins.

I mean, we should give it a try, but we've seen Lindholm and Manson play that many minutes occasionally, and they more often than not get burnt out by the end of the night.

Manson's averaged just under 20 minutes since he's been in the league, and Lindholm around 22. That extra 4-5 minutes can take a toll - not everyone's Suter, Doughty, or Karlsson.
 

Getzmonster

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It's easy to overlook Fowler's knee injury at the start of the season. My guess is, part of Fowler's lack of consistency comes from the ebbs and flows of his confidence. And I think it ties in with the fact that he seems to get injured every season. Every time we see the guy playing with his chest out and building momentum, an injury derails him and he seems to need a long window to build that confidence back up again. Cam had his knee wrecked by Kneeordano last season, and I don't think he was ever back to 100% through the end of the season. Then he jacks the same right knee early this season and is out for a stretch again. Perry was asked recently about recovery from his own knee injury (again), and he said even though he felt pretty good, that it takes time to get confidence back to the point where he's not thinking about it when he's on the ice. I believe this is part of Cam's story. Then you saddle him with Bieksa and it is what it is.

I think the concern with Cam long term has more to do with his durability, and how that can impact his confidence.
 

Deuce22

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I mean, we should give it a try, but we've seen Lindholm and Manson play that many minutes occasionally, and they more often than not get burnt out by the end of the night.

Manson's averaged just under 20 minutes since he's been in the league, and Lindholm around 22. That extra 4-5 minutes can take a toll - not everyone's Suter, Doughty, or Karlsson.

I can dream...

Lindholm/Montour 22 min.
Fowler/Manson 22 min.
Welinski/Beach 16 min.
 

Zegs2sendhelp

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I mean, we should give it a try, but we've seen Lindholm and Manson play that many minutes occasionally, and they more often than not get burnt out by the end of the night.

Manson's averaged just under 20 minutes since he's been in the league, and Lindholm around 22. That extra 4-5 minutes can take a toll - not everyone's Suter, Doughty, or Karlsson.

They def got burned out in beginning of season, granted we didn't have any forwards so they were basically just playin defense the whole time... I think manson could handle 22 and lindholm 24 no problem... either way its better than giving bieska 18+
 

AngelDuck

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Jun 16, 2012
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Guys that are better IMO.

Karlsson
Doughty
Burns
Subban
Hedman
Byfuglien
Suter
Petro
Parayko
Gio
Ekblad
Keith
Jones
OEL
Vlasic
Slavin
McDonagh
Hamilton
Carlson
Josi


That's 20. Then there's Werenski/Lindholm/Fowler/Rielly/Trouba/Brodie. And I think how "bad" Fowler has been this year is being greatly over exaggerated. His weaknesses are just being magnified by terrible coaching and an awful partner.
Lindholm, Trouba, Reilly, Faulk have passed him IMo.

I don't think he's bad, I'd probably have him in my top 40 and that's a top pairing guy

But I also disagree that his poor performance is being greatly over exaggerated. Sure having Bieksa as his partner sucks but he could do a lot better
 
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Dr Johnny Fever

Eggplant and Teal
Apr 11, 2012
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Found a quote on Twitter from Barstool:

"It’s not as if it’s one of these teams where... last year when we went out and got Eaves, where I had lots of confidence. I’m still kind of waiting for them to show me something and they’re not."

That quote sounds to me like he is looking more at the players than the coach. But maybe I'm biased?
 

Elvs

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Jul 3, 2006
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They'd have to hire an actor who could actually do that. KB's not qualified for the part.

Maybe we can sign Shaun Weiss for next year. It would give us positional versatility. He did a good job playing defense in D3, and can step in as a goaltender whenever Gibson is out with an injury.
 

HanSolo

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That quote sounds to me like he is looking more at the players than the coach. But maybe I'm biased?
I'm sure. If Murray is shortsighted enough....shortsighted is being nice I think. Blind works better. to hire Carlyle again I can't see why he couldn't be overlooking his performance as coach.
 

HanSolo

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Lindholm, Trouba, Reilly, Faulk have passed him IMo.

I don't think he's bad, I'd probably have him in my top 40 and that's a top pairing guy

But I also disagree that his poor performance is being greatly over exaggerated. Sure having Bieksa as his partner sucks but he could do a lot better
Playing with Bieksa can be worse than we're giving it credit for. Something I've noticed with Fowler is he looks more generally dejected this year. The psychological impact of having to play with someone as horrible as Bieksa can be pretty bad. But then we just move to an argument that Cam should be mentally stronger.
 

Sojourn

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Playing with Bieksa can be worse than we're giving it credit for. Something I've noticed with Fowler is he looks more generally dejected this year. The psychological impact of having to play with someone as horrible as Bieksa can be pretty bad. But then we just move to an argument that Cam should be mentally stronger.

He should be, but there is also the argument that anyone would be frustrated at a certain point.

I also agree with Arthuros about giving Manson and Lindholm more minutes: It's a good idea in theory, but it feels like every time they start to get more minutes they start to look worn down, and I think that contributes to why they don't get more minutes consistently.
 

Spazkat

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Playing with Bieksa can be worse than we're giving it credit for. Something I've noticed with Fowler is he looks more generally dejected this year. The psychological impact of having to play with someone as horrible as Bieksa can be pretty bad. But then we just move to an argument that Cam should be mentally stronger.


Except he didn't look great when he was with Manson early in the year, then he looked downright bad with Vats and never clicked with Montour in what time they had together. Its not really just with Bieksa
 
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Sojourn

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Except he didn't look great when he was with Manson early in the year, then he looked downright bad with Vats and never clicked with Montour in what time they had together. Its not really just with Bieksa

When he played with Manson early in the year(which was only for a couple weeks), Manson looked like the worse of the two. If you're going to bring that up, I feel like you should at least point that out. It's unfair to just say "Well, he played with Manson" because Manson started the season off making some very Bieksa type plays, and that continued for a little bit even when he was back with Lindholm.

Let's not forget that Manson was deserving of plenty of criticism at that point of the season too.
 

HanSolo

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Except he didn't look great when he was with Manson early in the year, then he looked downright bad with Vats and never clicked with Montour in what time they had together. Its not really just with Bieksa
So Fowler and Manson don't work for a couple of weeks when the majority of the team's impact players were hurt so we can say they don't work well together in that time period (even though they worked great together last year), yet the remainder of the season Bieksa with Fowler has been a disaster but somehow better???

Also Fowler playing with PMDs with tendencies to make risky pinches still forces him to play babysitter. The difference here is Bieksa is neither a PMD or a shut down d.
 

lwvs84

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It might be worth trying Manson on the power play (second unit)... he's had a good offensive season, why not reward him with some PP time? Move Getzlaf off the point, more Rakell or Perry to the second unit, maybe try Lindholm and Montour on the top unit and Fowler/Manson on the second with Kesler/Kase/Perry or Rakell. Silf has not been good offensively recently. This would allow Montour to be a little risky with a solid d-man to cover up for him, Lindholm has a pretty good shot, and spreads out the offense a bit more. It's not like we can score significantly less on the PP.
 

Elvs

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When he played with Manson early in the year(which was only for a couple weeks), Manson looked like the worse of the two. If you're going to bring that up, I feel like you should at least point that out. It's unfair to just say "Well, he played with Manson" because Manson started the season off making some very Bieksa type plays, and that continued for a little bit even when he was back with Lindholm.

Let's not forget that Manson was deserving of plenty of criticism at that point of the season too.

More importantly, Fowler had a higher CF% than Manson up until they were separated :sarcasm:
 

Elvs

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It might be worth trying Manson on the power play (second unit)... he's had a good offensive season, why not reward him with some PP time? Move Getzlaf off the point, more Rakell or Perry to the second unit, maybe try Lindholm and Montour on the top unit and Fowler/Manson on the second with Kesler/Kase/Perry or Rakell. Silf has not been good offensively recently. This would allow Montour to be a little risky with a solid d-man to cover up for him, Lindholm has a pretty good shot, and spreads out the offense a bit more. It's not like we can score significantly less on the PP.

We should try Bieksa down on the goal line near the left corner. I hear he's good at finding players in the slot with tape-to-tape passes from there.
 
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Arthuros

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We should try Bieksa down on the goal line near the left corner. I hear he's good at finding players in the slot with tape-to-tape passes from there.
That’s literally the same logic my elementary school used for my position on the soccer team.

“Hey, somehow, bouncing the ball off you keeps turning into own goals, so go stand over on the other goal line.”
 
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Paul4587

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So Fowler and Manson don't work for a couple of weeks when the majority of the team's impact players were hurt so we can say they don't work well together in that time period (even though they worked great together last year), yet the remainder of the season Bieksa with Fowler has been a disaster but somehow better???

Also Fowler playing with PMDs with tendencies to make risky pinches still forces him to play babysitter. The difference here is Bieksa is neither a PMD or a shut down d.

Well if you want to say two weeks isn’t enough to say they don’t work well then you can’t claim they do work well based off a similar sample size last season.

The fact is Manson’s play greatly improved alongside Lindholm. The numbers back that up and the eye test backs that up. There’s no reason to break up that pair.

Fowler has had an awful partner most of the year and that is in part the reason for his bad play. But when he was with other guys this year he’s also not been great. When you’re paying a guy 6.5M for 8 years I think you need him to be good enough to not have to play with a specific type of player. A lot of dmen in the league would kill to have someone as good as Vatanen as their partner, I don’t think him being paired with Vats is a good excuse for any poor play.
 

Sojourn

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Well if you want to say two weeks isn’t enough to say they don’t work well then you can’t claim they do work well based off a similar sample size last season.

The fact is Manson’s play greatly improved alongside Lindholm. The numbers back that up and the eye test backs that up. There’s no reason to break up that pair.

Fowler has had an awful partner most of the year and that is in part the reason for his bad play. But when he was with other guys this year he’s also not been great. When you’re paying a guy 6.5M for 8 years I think you need him to be good enough to not have to play with a specific type of player. A lot of dmen in the league would kill to have someone as good as Vatanen as their partner, I don’t think him being paired with Vats is a good excuse for any poor play.

But Manson's play didn't greatly improve immediately, which is a key point. I'm not saying break up the pairing, but I also don't think Manson's rough start and him finding his game can necessarily be attributed to playing with Lindholm. I think that's giving Lindholm too much credit, and Manson not enough.

As for Vatanen, which Vatanen are we talking about? Because it makes a difference. The one we saw this season, for example, some people couldn't wait to get rid of. He's been every bit as inconsistent as Fowler has. There is also the possibility that they just weren't a good fit, which is part of the problem, because if you're going to try to list the good D partners he's had as an argument for him not performing, if you consider that Vatanen and Fowler just weren't a good fit you're eliminating arguably half, or a third of the list. I say arguably because Despres and Fowler weren't together that long. The other being Beauchemin, in Fowler's sophomore season.

And therein lies the problem. It's a very short list. The opportunities have not been great.
 

Paul4587

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But Manson's play didn't greatly improve immediately, which is a key point. I'm not saying break up the pairing, but I also don't think Manson's rough start and him finding his game can necessarily be attributed to playing with Lindholm. I think that's giving Lindholm too much credit, and Manson not enough.

As for Vatanen, which Vatanen are we talking about? Because it makes a difference. The one we saw this season, for example, some people couldn't wait to get rid of. He's been every bit as inconsistent as Fowler has.

I’m not just talking about this season with Manson. He’s always played his best with Lindholm.

And Vatanen was struggling but he was still very much a top 4 guy. He’s very well in NJ since going there.
 

Sojourn

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I’m not just talking about this season with Manson. He’s always played his best with Lindholm.

And Vatanen was struggling but he was still very much a top 4 guy. He’s very well in NJ since going there.

He's been inconsistent there too.
 

Spazkat

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I’m not just talking about this season with Manson. He’s always played his best with Lindholm.

And Vatanen was struggling but he was still very much a top 4 guy. He’s very well in NJ since going there.


And that brings us back to the whole if you need some very specific type of partner that's a solid top 4 and almost never makes mistakes to play decently are you really worth a salary that's top 20 of all NHL defensemen? And yes, I get in a few years he wont be the highest paid and all that but the question is, is he worth what they gave him now. IMO you don't pay people because in a few years they will be theoretically be reasonably paid even if they are overpaid now
 
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