Do these guys deserve the Hall part #4

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by Big Phil, May 21, 2007.

  1. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    Hey what can I say I love deabating potential future Hall of Famers, current or retired. Here's 5 more. Knock yourself out.

    Daniel Alfredsson - He falls into the love him or hate him category. Again his carer isnt over. He is already a Conn Smythe candidate this year and if the Sens win the Cup I think its fair on projection to give him a little bit more Hall talk. Right now he sits at pretty good career numbers with 758 points in 783 games. His best seasons are 103, 87, 80, 78, 71 and 70 points. He was a second team all-star only once in '06 and that might hurt him but a Cup would change his shaky image. His playoffs numbers are better than a lot of people want to give him credit for and while he's had some brutal playoff years like '99, '01, '03 and '04 he's had some years where he played well in the postseason. So let's project him as a guy that'll play another 3-5 years and maybe have a Cup or two. Eventually, if the right ingredients fall into place I think he can get in.

    Paul Kariya - I was intrigued on another thread how quick one post was to dismiss him right away. Why is that? I think if he retired tomorrow he'd be in. But I'm guessing he has another 3-4 years of good Hockey in him. His career points are 866 in 821 games. His best seasons are 108, 101, 99, 86, 85, 81. He was a first team all-star three times ('96, '97, '99) and second team ('00, '03). he was a two-time Lady Byng winner and I know that doesnt really matter but he has the hardware. He was a top 10 scorer 4 times and a if you go back to 1997 and ask a GM who he wanted on his team after Lemieux a lot of them would have picked Kariya. For about two years he was mentioned as the best player in the game at times. He has a hard peak to ignore. His playoff experience is fairly weak but he should get in regardless. Its not like he's a loser, he won in the Worlds and the Olympics.

    Jeremy Roenick - He wasnt peerless by any means in his peak like Kariya so when you see his highest season point totals of 107, 107, 103 and 94 you might wonder. But he scored them at a time when scoring was higher. In all those years he never had a post season all-star nod, a Cup or a major award. You could argue in a couple years he was a top 10 player in the game but so was Bill Barber and he got in because he contributed greatly to some Cups. Roenick never won and that bugs me. In fact the only time Team USA ever won anything was in 1996 when he was off the team. He didnt do much after his 24th birthday and that hurts him. Its too bad because he had 1170 points in 1252 games and did well in the playoffs too. Any GM wanted him on their team. But do you think Hall of Famer when you think of him? Lafontaine you do, even Modano you do more than Roenick.

    Jere Lehtinen - No it isnt a joke. I'm not campaigning for him to get in there but he;s a lot close than we think. Gainey is in there, Carboneau has a shot and personally Lehtinen should get more brownie points. His numbers dont jump out at you with 436 points in 721 games. He's never had more than 52 points in a season but he has three Selke Trophies and one Cup in which he was huge in. Its his all around game that made him dangerous. I wouldnt put him in, but just how close do you think he is in your opinion.

    Pat Quinn - As a coach of course. Quinn was a solid defenseman in the NHL but far from great, in fact no bette than solid. As a coach he's racked up well over 600 wins. He's above .500 in the playoffs too. Keep in mind he was Coach of the Year in '80 and '92. And 5 times he led teams to 100+ points. It hurts that he has no Cups but he had two Cup finals visits in '80 and '94. Quinn coached the Flyers to that incredible 25-0-10 unbeaten streak in '80 and it isnt easy keeping a team grounded like that. Before 2006 it was 1986 when his teams last didnt make the playoffs, which is pretty good. And although a Cup eludes him, he's won the Olympic Gold and a World Cup. Do you think anyone could coach Team Canada? Well he did it again in '06 and didnt do very well. With a coach like a goalie its hard to put them in a great category without a Cup. Its unfair, but you cant call him a loser either. He won in international tournaments which isnt easy either. I'd say he's a Hall of Famer.
     
  2. John Flyers Fan

    John Flyers Fan Registered User

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    No for all of the above.

    If Alfie wins the Cup and a Conn Smythe, and has a few more big seasons he'd have an outside chance.

    Quinn has a better resume than Roger Neilson, but I still wouldn't induct him.

    Kariya and Roenick looke dlike they were on thier way before injruies slowed their careers. Roenick was never quite the same after the knee injury. For my money Roenick is closer than Kariya, much better postseason resume.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2007
  3. EagleBelfour

    EagleBelfour Registered User

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    I wouldn't have any more respect for the HHOF if Lehtinen goes in before Carbonneau.

    In my hall, these players would have ABSOLUTELY NO SHOT at the hall. God, the HHOF is becoming the hall of ''good players''.
     
  4. reckoning

    reckoning Registered User

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    Pat Quinn is currently on the selection committee, so his induction wouldn't look good in the media if it happened now. He's definitely the best coach to never win a Stanley Cup, but the Olympic Gold and World Cup should make that a non-factor.

    I love both Lehtinen and Carbonneau as players and wouldn't mind seeing them in, but they don't stand a chance. Defensive forwards simply won't get their due credit. Bob Gainey's selection was an anomaly.
     
  5. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    But dont you remember back in '96-99 that he was commonly mentioned as in the top 3 players in the game? Kariya had that dumb injury from Gary Suter but still came back the next year with 101 points. Personally I think he slowed down starting in '03-04. Roenick I can see, but Kariya has all of the credentials minus the postseason success. His playoff success is very Dionne-like and while Dionne was still the better player it just shows that someone with great regular seasons can get in. Besides Kariya is still at a point per game in the playoffs pretty much. I just feel he's a lock.
     
  6. MXD

    MXD I'll sue their ass off.

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    Of this list, I see Kariya as a potential induction on a weak year...
     
  7. God Bless Canada

    God Bless Canada Registered User

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    Roenick's a definite no. I love his personality and his candor. If there was an MD (Media Darling) HOF, he'd be a shoo-in, and if it was simply the press who decided inductions, I think Roenick's chances would be better. He hasn't always been the most beloved player in the game, which will hurt his chances, but what will hurt him more is that he simply hasn't done anything HHOF-worthy since 1994. He's never re-established himself as one of the top 10 players in the game, and he hasn't hit 80 points since 1993-94. His playoff portfolio isn't good enough to elevate him to HHOF status, either. He's a guy who brings a lot more than just points to a team, but there are a lot of guys waiting for the HHOF call who fit that description.

    No to Lehtinen as well. Unless you're name is Bob Gainey, defensive forwards just don't get inducted anymore. They used to, and if the veteran's committee was still around, more would be inducted. (I think Claude Provost and Ralph Backstrom would be in by now if the Veteran's Committee still existed). Yes, Lehtinen has three Selkes and several nominations, but there's a big chasm that exists between Lehtinen and Gainey. Gainey also has six rings and a Conn (and was a big factor in all six Cup wins). Lehtinen was a big part in one Dallas win. I don't think Lehtinen was as good defensively as Carbonneau, and he wasn't as good of a player as Esa Tikkanen. I'm not sure Lehtinen was as good defensively as Tikkanen.

    Quinn's an interesting one. The HHOF selection committee doesn't pay much attention to international exploits, so I'm not sure if the 2002 Olys and the (soon to be forgotten) 2004 World Cup matters much. Quinn wasn't a great tactical coach or strategist, but he rates among the best ever among the players' coaches - a guy who gets the most out of his players because his players would go through a wall for him.

    Not yet's to Alfredsson and Kariya. As of right now, Alfredsson has one all-star team selection. He's finally having the career-defining playoff that he needed to even get mention. He's not there yet, and he probably needs two or three more seasons among the game's elite, but he's closer than he was two months ago.

    Kariya's an interesting case. He's a five-time all-star. And while a couple of those selections came because of the dearth of LW talent (2000 and 2003), three were earned because he was that good. If international play mattered, he'd be a shoo-in. One of the best ever for Canada on the world stage. He'll be remembered as an offensive winger who had a short but memorable peak, but ultimately had a lot of seasons in which he didn't meet expectations. Playoff record, while not Dionne-esque, isn't exactly overwhelming, either. He reached the Cup final once, but was his role with Anaheim in 2003 overly impressive? I don't think so. In fact, he wasn't even qualified that summer. He's a not yet, IMO, as I think he can still turn it around and post one or two more dominant seasons, at which point he'd probably be a lock, but if his career ended tomorrow, I don't think he'd make it.
     
  8. John Flyers Fan

    John Flyers Fan Registered User

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    Personally I always thought Kariya was overrated and IMO he was never a top 3 player. I'lltake a pre-knee injury Roenick over a pre-Suter Kariya any day of the week.

    Roenick brought a physcal presence and has been a very good post season performer. 5 OT game winner, 100+ points.
     
  9. Kyle McMahon

    Kyle McMahon Registered User

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    I really don't think Kariya is as close as a lot of people seem to think. He seems to have gotten a lot of mileage out of what he did early in his career. He put up seasons of 108, 99, injured, 101, 86. At that point he looked like a future HOFer for sure. But he's always left you wanting more since, and I'd say he probably hasn't been one of the top 20 players in the game since 2000. His playoff record of 39 points in 46 games is decent at first glance, but also deceiving. In 2003 the Ducks went to the finals, but he only had 12 points in 21 games. This year Nashville looked like a contender, but he was held goaless with two assists as the fizzled in the first round. So his two most important post-seasons he underperformed. His decline starting in 2001 also coincides with Selanne being traded, so read into that what you will. There's still plenty of time left for Kariya to make a better case for himself, but for me, he'd need to put up a few more point-per-game seasons and have a playoff year like the one Alfredsson is having. He should easily hit 1000 points, and would get 500 goals if he averages 25 a season for six more years, so having those two milestones could put him over the top.

    Alfredsson is almost having a career opposite of Kariya's. He was just an average first-line player until 2002-03. If he wins the Conn Smythe this season he'll be thrown into the discussion. But at age 35 I don't think he has enough good years left in him to elevate him to HOF worthy, as he simply wouldn't have the career numbers.
     
  10. MS

    MS 1%er

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    Alfredsson might have an outside chance, but he definitely isn't there yet. If he managed to captain Ottawa to the Cup this year and win the Conn Smythe, and if he managed to clear 1000 points in a career played primarily in the dead-puck era, then he has a hope. Needs to have another really big offensive year or two as well. Will probably end up being a 'no' when all is said and done.

    Kariya is borderline. 3 seasons top-5 in scoring, 2 Lady Byngs, 5 All-Star berths. If he wasn't a top-5 offensive player in the 94-04 dead-puck era, he was close. But then he's struggled in the playoffs and plays a fairly one-dimensional perimeter game. Right now I'm still leaning toward 'no', but he still has a lot of hockey left in him. Very similar career to Leclair, although their playing styles were almost completely opposite.

    Roenick is a no. No Cups, no individual awards, no All-Star berths. Didn't have enough big seasons after age 23.

    Lehtinen ... defensive forwards are so hard to figure out what to do with. All I can say is that his induction only becomes a question if Carbonneau goes in. If they don't put Carbonneau in, no to Lehtinen as well.

    Quinn will be a no-brainer. 657 career victories, 4th all-time behind only Bowman, Arbour, and Irvin. 2 Jack Adams awards. Olympic Gold medal. Only blemish on his record is not winning a Cup, but it wasn't like he couldn't succeed in the playoffs and came a single goal away from winning twice. He'll get in easily, but it'll be awhile because he'll have to be off the selection committee first.
     
  11. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    Oh man I dont know John. Hey I like the posts you do but I have a feeling you might lose a bet if you put a '96-97 or '97-98 Kariya vs. a '93-94 Roenick. No knocks agianst JR by any means but his best year in '93-94 you'd have had to put Fedorov, Gretkzy, Bure, Gilmour, Bourque, Hasek and Lemieux (had an injured year but was still great) at least ahead of him as the best in the game.

    In '97-98 after Lemieux retired you had Jagr and Hasek then probably Kariya. In 1998 The Hockey News put him as the #2 player in the NHL behind Hasek. Roenick never had that peak that Kariya had. Even with Selanne gone Kariya still put the points up, not eye-popping but heck he still had 85 points in '05-06. Playoffs I'll admit other than '97 and that classicgame in Game 6 of the SC finals in '03 he doesnt have anything that jumps out at you. But neither does Dionne.
     
  12. Kyle McMahon

    Kyle McMahon Registered User

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    I wouldn't be so sure about Quinn getting in. He was once banned from the sport for the "Quinn-gate" fiasco, and him and the Canucks were taken to court for failing to make transfer payments for Soviet players they brought over. In contrast to guys like Arbour and Bowman, Quinn's career victories total is more a result of longevity than of coaching great teams. I'm not saying he's not a good coach, because he usually seems to get the best out of his players, but is racking up year after year of .500-ish seasons really all that impressive? (Keep in mind Quinn was GM as well for a lot of seasons, so you can't say the GM gave him a poor team to work with) I'd put Quinn in on the basis of Roger Nielson being in with a similar track record, but the difference is that Nielson was beloved by many in the sport, while Quinn has the legal troubles I mentioned above.

    Also, what two times was Quinn a goal away from the Cup? As far as I know it was just with Vancouver in '94. He made the finals with the Flyers in 1980, but they lost 4games to 2.
     
  13. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    Quinn has a lot going for him though. In 1998 he became coach of the Leafs and right away made them a Cup contedner for 6 years in a row. Let's face it Toronto was in the running quite a few of those years. He turned around an entire franchise. Sure Joseph helped but in 1998-99 the Leafs scored the most goals in the NHL, they became a fun team to watch. It was 1947 the last time the leafs led the NHL in goals. 52 years later they did it again thanks to Quinn's wide open style.

    He had a hard time adjusting to the new NHL but I still think he's a great coach who someone needs to snag. If Jacques Martin was the head coach in the Olympics does he let the Canadian team play the offensive up tempo style that helped them win or does he run them to the ground like he does the Senators? Sure a two-year old could figure it out but Quinn won twice at the top of the International levels.

    In '94 he guided an unlikely team the Cup finals. he was one goal away. And to answer the other time that Quinn was one goal away from the Cup how about in '80 when the Islanders won Game 6 at home in OT. You can bet that if Philly wins that game they dont lose back at home in Game 7. They were still very much the Broad Street Bullies at the time.
     
  14. arrbez

    arrbez bad chi

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    I remember when I was younger thinking that Kariya was the greatest thing ever. But I go back and look at the stats, and I'm surprised at how un-eye-popping they are. When I was younger I used to think of him as on par with Jagr, but really, not even close. He had some great seasons, but not as many or as high as I thought. Obviously there's a lot more to hockey than stats, but Kariya was and is primarily an offensive specialist.
     
  15. I think Quinn has more than one blemish on his resume, like the scandel in the 80's when he was coaching the Kings and accepting money from the Canucks..
     

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