Line Combos: Do the Leafs have too many offensive defencemen?

[showtime8]

Usually stay-at-home/defensive/shut-down defencemen have an easier time adjusting to the physical requirements of the NHL moreso than these smooth skaters like Rielly (I consider Gardiner to be a few steps behind Rielly).

Skating ability is just one skill to have as a defender. Willingness to use your body and stick in a smart way is another. I don't think the Leafs have nearly enough of those guys. If they did, maybe we wouldn't be as frantic for a new goalie.

You can skate circles around the guy in your end, but at the end of the day you can't just run around the guy like a yappy dog. You have to engage the opponent and reclaim possession. It takes strength and smarts.

Gardiner, Liles, and Rielly simply don't have this. And then add Phaneuf who is slow and stupid, and you have three quarters of a full d squad that can't defend well. Basically necessitates the acquisition of two EXTREMELY good defensive defencemen and two of these Gardiner/Liles/Rielly/Phaneuf players to get minimal even strength and shorthanded ice time.

Yea, I agree that you need to be more physical as a defenseman, but the Leafs have taken the approach that they will have more than one offensive minded dman.

They gave up a lot when they got rid of Schenn, so it was made clear that they were going in another direction. Getting JVR was important, so I don't want to make this into a Schenn/JVR discussion. Anyways, I've said this for a long time but they should go in a similar direction that the LA Kings have gone. 2 really good young dmen, paired up with 2 veteran shutdown guys. Seems to make sense right? What would that mean for the bottom pairing? Well, it doesn't really matter. You could have a powerplay specialist, guy that fights, or whatever you need. But you need to establish this mentality right away. Right now it stands that they are pairing people up just based on contract and not so much on ability.

 

[darrylsittler27]

We do need an upgrade on Phaneuff...

? Gardiner
Reilly Holzer
Finn (Blacker/Percy)


Maybe Burke trades up and gets Seth Jones?

Signs Getzlaf,Perry drafts Seth Jones,accepts 5 first rounders from Vancouver as compensation to take Luongo's now brutal contract(lower cap) off a now desperate Gillis.

 

[Leaf Army]

No the team will still be the same defensively. The goaltending will improve.

Common sense.

No ACC1224 is right. The team will be better defensively with better goaltending.

Hockey is a team sport and everything is related. When the goaltending is bad, the defence plays with less confidence. When the defence plays with less confidence, the goaltending gets even worse.

It's a downward spiral.

 

[showtime8]

No ACC1224 is right. The team will be better defensively with better goaltending.

Hockey is a team sport and everything is related. When the goaltending is bad, the defence plays with less confidence. When the defence plays with less confidence, the goaltending gets even worse.

It's a downward spiral.

Confidence and momentum are the 2 biggest things in this game.

When teams see a weak goal go in, you start to over compensate for others' play. More so, you'd make a bad pass to force something that isn't there.

Goaltending has to be the most important spot of focus on a team.

 

[Bomber0104]

No ACC1224 is right. The team will be better defensively with better goaltending.

Hockey is a team sport and everything is related. When the goaltending is bad, the defence plays with less confidence. When the defence plays with less confidence, the goaltending gets even worse.

It's a downward spiral.

Disagree.

If a goaltender is playing poorly, then a team should react by playing stronger defence.

Not worse.

 

[TMLegend]

Disagree.

If a goaltender is playing poorly, then a team should react by playing stronger defence.

Not worse.

Wait what?

Of course a team is gonna play worse defense when their goaltender stinks. Hockey is all about confidence and roles. When a goalie plays lousy, the D overcompesate. It's quite simple really..

 

[Bomber0104]

Wait what?

Of course a team is gonna play worse defense when their goaltender stinks. Hockey is all about confidence and roles. When a goalie plays lousy, the D overcompesate. It's quite simple really..

The D should be playing more conservatively and responsible when they know the goalie is struggling.

In other words they should play better.

I think you are having a hard time separating the jobs of the goalie and defence.

We all know what a bad goal looks like. We all know what bad defence looks like.

Try separating the two instead of blending them together.

 

[MastuhNinks]

Dion Phaneuf isn't an offensive defensemen, and Rielly still has plenty of time to develop into a two-way guy in the mould of a Kris Letang.

The D should be playing more conservatively and responsible when they know the goalie is struggling.

In other words they should play better.

I think you are having a hard time separating the jobs of the goalie and defence.

We all know what a bad goal looks like. We all know what bad defence looks like.

Try separating the two instead of blending them together.

Hahaha, it's not as simple as 'just play better'. Look at a guy like Schenn, when he was trying too hard was often when he got burned, he always looked best when he was just doing what he was good at.

EDIT: Although yes I agree in general our defensive core is too offensive minded. After #1C and goalie our biggest need is a top 4 defensive defensemen.

 

[TMLegend]

The D should be playing more conservatively and responsible when they know the goalie is struggling.

In other words they should play better.

I think you are having a hard time separating the jobs of the goalie and defence.

We all know what a bad goal looks like. We all know what bad defence looks like.

Try separating the two instead of blending them together.

But goaltending and defence need to be blended together, A great defence can make a poor goaltender look good, just the same a great goaltender can make a poor defence look good, Unfortunately for us, Both Suck.

 

[TootooTrain]

The D should be playing more conservatively and responsible when they know the goalie is struggling.

In other words they should play better.

In theory yes, but players are human. When a goalie starts to struggle or looks shaky, the defense can lose confidence at the same time. Worried that the next puck that gets sent towards the net has a good chance of going in. As a result they either try to do too much, or not enough. Basically creating indecisiveness.

 

[12345*]

? Gardiner
Reilly Holzer
Finn (Blacker/Percy)


Maybe Burke trades up and gets Seth Jones?

Signs Getzlaf,Perry drafts Seth Jones,accepts 5 first rounders from Vancouver as compensation to take Luongo's now brutal contract(lower cap) off a now desperate Gillis.

If we trade up, I'd rather we pick up a 1C. Unless we somehow sign Getz. I love Seth Jones potential, but Phaneuf is a top pairing D man (not necessarily #1). But he will suffice. I think we should keep drafting smart Swedish Ds and high risk high reward forwards in 5/6/7th rounds.

 

[showtime8]

Dion Phaneuf isn't an offensive defensemen, and Rielly still has plenty of time to develop into a two-way guy in the mould of a Kris Letang.

Hahaha, it's not as simple as 'just play better'. Look at a guy like Schenn, when he was trying too hard was often when he got burned, he always looked best when he was just doing what he was good at.

EDIT: Although yes I agree in general our defensive core is too offensive minded. After #1C and goalie our biggest need is a top 4 defensive defensemen.

What is Phaneuf, if he isn't an offensive dman?

If people think that he's responsible defensively, I'm gonna puke in my mouth.

 

[Bomber0104]

But goaltending and defence need to be blended together, A great defence can make a poor goaltender look good, just the same a great goaltender can make a poor defence look good, Unfortunately for us, Both Suck.

No they shouldn't be blended together.

Pretty easy to see when a goalie lets in a softie.
Pretty easy to see when a defender screws up.
Pretty easy to see when a goalie gets peppered with shots.
Pretty easy to see when a defender plays well.

The only thing I can I agree with you about is that the Leafs goalies and defence both suck.

 

[Bomber0104]

In theory yes, but players are human. When a goalie starts to struggle or looks shaky, the defense can lose confidence at the same time. Worried that the next puck that gets sent towards the net has a good chance of going in. As a result they either try to do too much, or not enough. Basically creating indecisiveness.

If defenders play worse and not better when they have a weak goalie behind them, they need to be removed from the team and replaced with ones who aren't so emotionally fragile and sensitive. I guess Schenn was. Good on Burke for shipping him out.

This is pro sports.

Try telling that to the St. Louis Blues, playing in front of less than stellar goalies for years.

 

[TootooTrain]

If defenders play worse and not better when they have a weak goalie behind them, they need to be removed from the team and replaced with ones who aren't so emotionally fragile and sensitive. I guess Schenn was. Good on Burke for shipping him out.

This is pro sports.

Try telling that to the St. Louis Blues, playing in front of less than stellar goalies for years.

I'm not saying every defenseman is susceptible to the emotional rollercoaster of a shaky goaltender, but to say any player that has these feelings should be shipped out is ridiculous. It's a long season, it will happen whether you like it or not.

 

[Bomber0104]

I'm not saying every defenseman is susceptible to the emotional rollercoaster of a shaky goaltender, but to say any player that has these feelings should be shipped out is ridiculous. It's a long season, it will happen whether you like it or not.

Feelings aren't for male pro athletes. They are for someone else.

That is one of the roles of General Managers. To identify strong-charactered players who won't get their feelings hurt and games thrown off when their goalie lays an egg.

 

[MastuhNinks]

What is Phaneuf, if he isn't an offensive dman?

If people think that he's responsible defensively, I'm gonna puke in my mouth.

If you think he isn't responsible defensively you're just plain ignorant. He had a terrific 2011-2012 campaign and defensive metrics prove it (or at least suggest it, which is more than the 'Phaneuf sucks' camp can muster up ).

3rd in the entire league among defensemen in QoC, top 10 in Corsi Rel QoC, all the while he had a positive relative corsi and a GA ON/60 lower than his GA OFF/60. So tell me, if Phaneuf is so terrible defensively, how did he manage to play some of the toughest defensive minutes in the entire league, while his team outshot opponents more often and was scored on less while he was on the ice? His team also managed to carry the puck up the ice while he was on it, he has a higher Off Zone Finish % than Start %.

Don't bring up quality of teammates either, because statistics (QoT and Corsi Rel QoT) also suggest that his were some of the weakest among defensemen who logged minutes as difficult as he did.

So yeah, most accepted and used defensive metrics in hockey today suggest that Phaneuf was indeed very defensively responsible last season. Now here's the part where you rant to me that statistics aren't everything and bring up some ridiculous example to show me your point. I'm not saying statistics are concrete, and I'm not saying Phaneuf is Brent Seabrook or Zdeno Chara, but to suggest that he's inept defensively when he had a great season by most measurements of defensive prowess is silly. Statistics unfortunately are the only objective argument we have on this website, you can come back and say, "NUH-UH, WATCH HIM PLAY HE SUX!!1" but then ultimately we wouldn't really be discussing anything, we'd be in a pointless yelling match where neither side has a stronger argument than the other.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

Feelings aren't for male pro athletes. They are for someone else.

That is one of the roles of General Managers. To identify strong-charactered players who won't get their feelings hurt and games thrown off when their goalie lays an egg.

Unfortunately it's not that black and white.

 

[MastuhNinks]

Feelings aren't for male pro athletes. They are for someone else.

That is one of the roles of General Managers. To identify strong-charactered players who won't get their feelings hurt and games thrown off when their goalie lays an egg.

It has nothing to do with feelings, it has to do with confidence. If you're not confident in your goalie to make as many saves, you're going to start trying to do too much and make plays that you shouldn't. It's really not complicated, every defensemen is going to play more confident hockey with Henrik Lundqvist in net rather than James Reimer. Now, that doesn't give the Leafs defensive core an automatic pass, but acting like the goalie doesn't have any effect on the play of the defensemen is silly. Acting like this effect is indicative of emotional fragility is even more ridiculous.

 

[Bomber0104]

Statistics unfortunately are the only objective argument we have on this website, you can come back and say, "NUH-UH, WATCH HIM PLAY HE SUX!!1" but then ultimately we wouldn't really be discussing anything, we'd be in a pointless yelling match where neither side has a stronger argument than the other.

What the statistics don't tell you is how bad the Leafs did.

So maybe other people were worse on the Leafs but Phaneuf still "lead" the defence and as a result was responsible for leading them to nearly last place. It doesn't really say much when you say Phaneuf was one of the better defensive players on the worst defensive team in the league.

With that in mind I think he is approaching being an average defensive player.

Coaches have picked up on Phaneuf's slow and stupid play long ago which is why he has always been paired with a defensive defenceman.

If he was a good defensive player, coaches would have put an offensive defenceman with him.

 

[Bomber0104]

It has nothing to do with feelings, it has to do with confidence.

And like I said, if you have a team full of sensitive little girls, probably won't go far with them. Should trade them for less sensitive and emotional ones.

If you're not confident in your goalie to make as many saves, you're going to start trying to do too much and make plays that you shouldn't.

Why? That would be stupid of the defence. You should make the most defensive play to limit the opportunities. If players are doing this, they should be traded for less stupid ones who aren't prone to this irrational and volatile play style. Mike Komisarek syndrome.

It's really not complicated, every defensemen is going to play more confident hockey with Henrik Lundqvist in net rather than James Reimer.

They are going to play less conservatively in front of Lundqvist. Not confident. They will pinch more and take more chances that will lead to offence. In front of Reimer, the Rangers defence would be ordered to play more defensively. You're right. Not complicated.

Now, that doesn't give the Leafs defensive core an automatic pass, but acting like the goalie doesn't have any effect on the play of the defensemen is silly. Acting like this effect is indicative of emotional fragility is even more ridiculous.

I never said it didn't have any effect. I said it doesn't have the effect you think it does which is to say it makes them play worse.

It doesn't.

It makes them play more conservatively.

And that's where a good mind for the game comes in to play...being able to discern bad goaltending from bad defence. The two aren't one and the same.

 

[showtime8]

If you think he isn't responsible defensively you're just plain ignorant. He had a terrific 2011-2012 campaign and defensive metrics prove it (or at least suggest it, which is more than the 'Phaneuf sucks' camp can muster up ).

3rd in the entire league among defensemen in QoC, top 10 in Corsi Rel QoC, all the while he had a positive relative corsi and a GA ON/60 lower than his GA OFF/60. So tell me, if Phaneuf is so terrible defensively, how did he manage to play some of the toughest defensive minutes in the entire league, while his team outshot opponents more often and was scored on less while he was on the ice? His team also managed to carry the puck up the ice while he was on it, he has a higher Off Zone Finish % than Start %.

Don't bring up quality of teammates either, because statistics (QoT and Corsi Rel QoT) also suggest that his were some of the weakest among defensemen who logged minutes as difficult as he did.

So yeah, most accepted and used defensive metrics in hockey today suggest that Phaneuf was indeed very defensively responsible last season. Now here's the part where you rant to me that statistics aren't everything and bring up some ridiculous example to show me your point. I'm not saying statistics are concrete, and I'm not saying Phaneuf is Brent Seabrook or Zdeno Chara, but to suggest that he's inept defensively when he had a great season by most measurements of defensive prowess is silly. Statistics unfortunately are the only objective argument we have on this website, you can come back and say, "NUH-UH, WATCH HIM PLAY HE SUX!!1" but then ultimately we wouldn't really be discussing anything, we'd be in a pointless yelling match where neither side has a stronger argument than the other.

Allowing Phaneuf to play tough minutes means one of two things. He's really good defensively, or there are no other options. So yes, it would make sense that his QoT would be near the bottom of the league.

Its like saying the same argument about Jay Bouwmeester. He probably played a ton of hard minutes but how did that work out for him and Calgary. And I'm guessing that his QoT wasn't that good either.

Being responsible in the defensive end and stopping plays from getting there/play in the neutral zone are also in effect.

 

[charliolemieux]

And like I said, if you have a team full of sensitive little girls, probably won't go far with them. Should trade them for less sensitive and emotional ones.

Ya guys with emotion like Clark, Gilmour, Tucker and Roberts are just garbage to have on a team.

Why? That would be stupid of the defence. You should make the most defensive play to limit the opportunities. If players are doing this, they should be traded for less stupid ones who aren't prone to this irrational and volatile play style. Mike Komisarek syndrome.

YEt this happens on every team with a weak goalie. THe defence tries to overcompensate and ends up making poor decisions.

They are going to play less conservatively in front of Lundqvist. Not confident. They will pinch more and take more chances that will lead to offence. In front of Reimer, the Rangers defence would be ordered to play more defensively. You're right. Not complicated.

The Rangers have an excellent D-corps, but put Reimer in net and they would all be a minus player just like the Leafs Dmen.

 

[Leafs87]

Its good to have a mobile back end but I do agree we have to many offensive FIRST guys.

look at how well it worked for team Canada

 

[BrannigansLaw]

If you think he isn't responsible defensively you're just plain ignorant. He had a terrific 2011-2012 campaign and defensive metrics prove it (or at least suggest it, which is more than the 'Phaneuf sucks' camp can muster up ).

3rd in the entire league among defensemen in QoC, top 10 in Corsi Rel QoC, all the while he had a positive relative corsi and a GA ON/60 lower than his GA OFF/60. So tell me, if Phaneuf is so terrible defensively, how did he manage to play some of the toughest defensive minutes in the entire league, while his team outshot opponents more often and was scored on less while he was on the ice? His team also managed to carry the puck up the ice while he was on it, he has a higher Off Zone Finish % than Start %.

Don't bring up quality of teammates either, because statistics (QoT and Corsi Rel QoT) also suggest that his were some of the weakest among defensemen who logged minutes as difficult as he did.

So yeah, most accepted and used defensive metrics in hockey today suggest that Phaneuf was indeed very defensively responsible last season. Now here's the part where you rant to me that statistics aren't everything and bring up some ridiculous example to show me your point. I'm not saying statistics are concrete, and I'm not saying Phaneuf is Brent Seabrook or Zdeno Chara, but to suggest that he's inept defensively when he had a great season by most measurements of defensive prowess is silly. Statistics unfortunately are the only objective argument we have on this website, you can come back and say, "NUH-UH, WATCH HIM PLAY HE SUX!!1" but then ultimately we wouldn't really be discussing anything, we'd be in a pointless yelling match where neither side has a stronger argument than the other.

You're stretching it big time by saying he was very responsible defensively. He is at best mediocre/average.