Dirtiest player: Bobby Clarke or Mark Messier?

[SealsFan]

Clarke, for the reasons many have already mentioned.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Probably Messier. From beginning to end. Look, Clarke had his moments with Kharlamov in 1972 and he may have had the Broad Street Bullies protect him a little bit more than what Messier had but from beginning to end Messier was a caged animal. Think of him as a very young player like in the 1981 playoffs. The Oilers are cleaning the Habs up in the opening round of the 1981 playoffs. Messier and Larry Robinson have that famous stand off between them where Messier feigns swinging his stick at him. Robinson was bigger, probably a better fighter than him but for whatever reason Robinson doesn't teach the "kid" a lesson. Especially in that sort of series in which they needed some sort of spark for an aging team. Messier confidently stands there and gambles that Robinson will think he is too much of a loose cannon to fight with, and it worked.

Fast forward 23 years and its 2004. Messier spears Martin Strbak in the groin and gets a two game suspension for it. No one dares to challenge Messier over this. He comes back plays a couple of games to finish off his career and retires.

I saw Messier's whole career and I have mentioned it on here before but I still can't understand how Messier was able to do so much dirty work and not have more challengers for a fight. Joel Otto and him had some memorable moments against each other and they only fought twice. McSorley and him fought 4 times, that was the most he did against anyone. But I just can't understand why there weren't heavyweights that went after him. In the 1980s and 1990s there were tons of guys who were used as enforcers that you would think would have thought nothing of fighting him. But there was this reputation Messier had, I think, that scared everybody from fighting him. Of all the dirty plays that guy did he would just as often stand there and glare at anyone who tried to exact revenge. It was like he was Jason Voorhees or something. Maybe that's the thing he and Howe had in common.

Was part of the enforcer's code at that time not to go after star players.

However, I did attend a Rangers game the year after they won the Cup in which Lindros chased Messier all over the ice all night. Mess just skated away, all night long. Rangers won.

As for Robinson, not sure he could have handled Messier at that time.

 

[scott clam]

As for Robinson, not sure he could have handled Messier at that time.

He was 30 years old, and beat up D. Schultz 5 years earlier, so he probably could. It's not like he was washed up or anything: he did play for another 10 years, and got another ring.

Probably decided it was better just to play hockey, than go at it with some nut swinging his stick like a baseball bat. What would he have to prove by fighting him anyway?

 

[David Bruce Banner]

Probably Messier. From beginning to end. Look, Clarke had his moments with Kharlamov in 1972 and he may have had the Broad Street Bullies protect him a little bit more than what Messier had but from beginning to end Messier was a caged animal. Think of him as a very young player like in the 1981 playoffs. The Oilers are cleaning the Habs up in the opening round of the 1981 playoffs. Messier and Larry Robinson have that famous stand off between them where Messier feigns swinging his stick at him. Robinson was bigger, probably a better fighter than him but for whatever reason Robinson doesn't teach the "kid" a lesson. Especially in that sort of series in which they needed some sort of spark for an aging team. Messier confidently stands there and gambles that Robinson will think he is too much of a loose cannon to fight with, and it worked.

Fast forward 23 years and its 2004. Messier spears Martin Strbak in the groin and gets a two game suspension for it. No one dares to challenge Messier over this. He comes back plays a couple of games to finish off his career and retires.

I saw Messier's whole career and I have mentioned it on here before but I still can't understand how Messier was able to do so much dirty work and not have more challengers for a fight. Joel Otto and him had some memorable moments against each other and they only fought twice. McSorley and him fought 4 times, that was the most he did against anyone. But I just can't understand why there weren't heavyweights that went after him. In the 1980s and 1990s there were tons of guys who were used as enforcers that you would think would have thought nothing of fighting him. But there was this reputation Messier had, I think, that scared everybody from fighting him. Of all the dirty plays that guy did he would just as often stand there and glare at anyone who tried to exact revenge. It was like he was Jason Voorhees or something. Maybe that's the thing he and Howe had in common.

My initial suspicion is that people weren’t so much put off by Messier the Fighter or Messier the Psycho as they were by Dirty Messier evening the score somewhere down the road.

 

[double5son10]

Probably Messier. From beginning to end. Look, Clarke had his moments with Kharlamov in 1972 and he may have had the Broad Street Bullies protect him a little bit more than what Messier had but from beginning to end Messier was a caged animal. Think of him as a very young player like in the 1981 playoffs. The Oilers are cleaning the Habs up in the opening round of the 1981 playoffs. Messier and Larry Robinson have that famous stand off between them where Messier feigns swinging his stick at him. Robinson was bigger, probably a better fighter than him but for whatever reason Robinson doesn't teach the "kid" a lesson. Especially in that sort of series in which they needed some sort of spark for an aging team. Messier confidently stands there and gambles that Robinson will think he is too much of a loose cannon to fight with, and it worked.

Not sure what "lesson" Robinson was supposed to teach him. The stick swinging incident was w/ 3 minutes left in the 2nd period of game 1, with the score 3-1 Oilers. They were hardly "cleaning up" the Canadiens at that stage. Watching the video Robinson quite clearly challenges Messier to drop them, which Mess wants no part of, preferring to jaw at Robinson from behind the refs. So what, Big Larry is supposed to just jump Messier and get the instigator w/ his team down in the game? Larry wasn't an idiot, and beating up Messier wasn't going to change the fact that Sevigny couldn't stop a beach ball, or that Lafleur, Larouche and Napier couldn't bury a dead body.

Anyway, it's Messier over Clarke for me. Bobby was a weasel and he certainly had the more infamous stick fouls, but Messier was a consistent menace. Sticks, elbows, high hits, he had the whole arsenal and he was a far scarier, intimidating presence than Clarke. Messier wasn't a great fighter, and I never understood why he didn't fight more given how reckless he could be, but he could at least back up his viciousness when called upon. Or just run you through the boards later. Clarke was dangerous but he wasn't scary to boot. Messier was both.

 

[The Panther]

My initial suspicion is that people weren’t so much put off by Messier the Fighter or Messier the Psycho as they were by Dirty Messier evening the score somewhere down the road.

Probably. That was often noted as a Gordie Howe trademark as well. If you made Gordie look bad or gave him a shot, he might not always get you back that game, but he would always get you back later... and it might be six months later, but it was coming.

What these players learned early on, of course, as Gordie said, is that "it is better to give than to receive". But what they were really doing is making space for themselves. When opponents are wary of crossing you, you have earned some space on the ice.

Mark learned hockey from his Dad, Doug Messier, who, like Don Cherry, was a career minor-pro player. When Mark was born, his Dad was playing in Lacombe, quite near where I (mostly) grew up, and let me tell that is a dire, hard, and rough place to be, and especially in long Alberta winters....! Anyway, the elder Messier came up in the prime-Gordie Howe era of hockey, and from his mid-20s was playing in the old Western Hockey League (and from his late-20s, was based in Oregon, where Mark also lived as a child), and that was a rough and tumble league, especially for a defenceman. Mark probably got creamed one time as a kid, and Doug sat him down and said, "Look son, keep your elbows up and don't take any **** from anyone, and you'll be all right", like the Dad in Johnny Cash's "A Boy Named Sue".

In today's hockey, a forward can stand in front of the net, check message on their smart-phone, then look for rebounds, and never get hit (let alone killed), but it wasn't like that in the Western Hockey League of the early-60s....

 

[sr edler]

Messier's hockey persona was a mash up between an elder statesman and a loose cannon psychopath with intimidating physicality, that's why so few players tried to get at him. Plus, a lot of players probably respected/admired him and looked up to him like a role model or a daddy figure, and why would you want to hurt your role model or your dad unless he's done something real nasty to you on a personal level.

Was part of the enforcer's code at that time not to go after star players.

However, I did attend a Rangers game the year after they won the Cup in which Lindros chased Messier all over the ice all night. Mess just skated away, all night long. Rangers won.

Lindros wasn't an enforcer, he was a star himself from game 1, as you already know. Reason he chased Messier was probably just because he wanted to prove himself as the numero uno alpha bull in the game. Wasn't Messier Lindros' idol? He did the same to Forsberg in Forsberg's 1st NHL game and knocked him on his butt with a hit.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Probably. That was often noted as a Gordie Howe trademark as well. If you made Gordie look bad or gave him a shot, he might not always get you back that game, but he would always get you back later... and it might be six months later, but it was coming.

What these players learned early on, of course, as Gordie said, is that "it is better to give than to receive". But what they were really doing is making space for themselves. When opponents are wary of crossing you, you have earned some space on the ice.

Mark learned hockey from his Dad, Doug Messier, who, like Don Cherry, was a career minor-pro player. When Mark was born, his Dad was playing in Lacombe, quite near where I (mostly) grew up, and let me tell that is a dire, hard, and rough place to be, and especially in long Alberta winters....! Anyway, the elder Messier came up in the prime-Gordie Howe era of hockey, and from his mid-20s was playing in the old Western Hockey League (and from his late-20s, was based in Oregon, where Mark also lived as a child), and that was a rough and tumble league, especially for a defenceman. Mark probably got creamed one time as a kid, and Doug sat him down and said, "Look son, keep your elbows up and don't take any **** from anyone, and you'll be all right", like the Dad in Johnny Cash's "A Boy Named Sue".

In today's hockey, a forward can stand in front of the net, check message on their smart-phone, then look for rebounds, and never get hit (let alone killed), but it wasn't like that in the Western Hockey League of the early-60s....

Have to like a post that includes Gordie Howe, Don Cherry and John Cash. Kudos!

 

[The Macho King]

Probably Messier. From beginning to end. Look, Clarke had his moments with Kharlamov in 1972 and he may have had the Broad Street Bullies protect him a little bit more than what Messier had but from beginning to end Messier was a caged animal. Think of him as a very young player like in the 1981 playoffs. The Oilers are cleaning the Habs up in the opening round of the 1981 playoffs. Messier and Larry Robinson have that famous stand off between them where Messier feigns swinging his stick at him. Robinson was bigger, probably a better fighter than him but for whatever reason Robinson doesn't teach the "kid" a lesson. Especially in that sort of series in which they needed some sort of spark for an aging team. Messier confidently stands there and gambles that Robinson will think he is too much of a loose cannon to fight with, and it worked.

I read that situation way differently. Someone tries to get you to flinch and you don't? That's way more impressive to me than just wailing on the kid.

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

So what, Big Larry is supposed to just jump Messier and get the instigator w/ his team down in the game? Larry wasn't an idiot, and beating up Messier wasn't going to change the fact that Sevigny couldn't stop a beach ball, or that Lafleur, Larouche and Napier couldn't bury a dead body.

Instigator penalty didnt exist until the early 90s

 

[Fixxer]

The Messier hit I mentioned:

Back when the trainers would ask how many fingers you see and give you a little pat on the back. lol

 

[Big Phil]

Was part of the enforcer's code at that time not to go after star players.

However, I did attend a Rangers game the year after they won the Cup in which Lindros chased Messier all over the ice all night. Mess just skated away, all night long. Rangers won.

As for Robinson, not sure he could have handled Messier at that time.

I think Robinson handles Messier just fine at the time. But you are right about Lindros, there is one guy that didn't seem to get hung up on being afraid of Messier and that was Lindros. If anything it was the one alpha male trying to grab the mantle from the other one. Lindros was the only one that I think humbled Messier a bit. Lindros grew up idolizing Messier.

But I will say one thing, here is a perfect example of what Messier meant to even someone like Lindros and part of it got me thinking about the whole respect thing. Game 3 1996 World Cup, Canada is trailing with about a minute to go. I have no idea why Sather initially had Lindros take the faceoff deep in USA's zone. But Lindros was nervous and sort of cheating a bit and the ref didn't drop the puck. Messier decides to skate over, taps him on the butt with his stick and Lindros immediately lets him into the faceoff dot. Messier takes a peak to see Coffey behind him, wins a clean draw against Otto back to Coffey and if not for the puck bouncing on a pass to Gretzky it is probably in the net for a tie game. So what I am saying is that the older Messier was like a mafia leader to everyone else. I get that was the reason in the 1990s why no one wanted to fight him, but I can't understand why early in his career this happened, like with Robinson. He wasn't "Messier" yet at that time. Just a cocky 20 year old.

Not sure what "lesson" Robinson was supposed to teach him. The stick swinging incident was w/ 3 minutes left in the 2nd period of game 1, with the score 3-1 Oilers. They were hardly "cleaning up" the Canadiens at that stage. Watching the video Robinson quite clearly challenges Messier to drop them, which Mess wants no part of, preferring to jaw at Robinson from behind the refs. So what, Big Larry is supposed to just jump Messier and get the instigator w/ his team down in the game? Larry wasn't an idiot, and beating up Messier wasn't going to change the fact that Sevigny couldn't stop a beach ball, or that Lafleur, Larouche and Napier couldn't bury a dead body.

Anyway, it's Messier over Clarke for me. Bobby was a weasel and he certainly had the more infamous stick fouls, but Messier was a consistent menace. Sticks, elbows, high hits, he had the whole arsenal and he was a far scarier, intimidating presence than Clarke. Messier wasn't a great fighter, and I never understood why he didn't fight more given how reckless he could be, but he could at least back up his viciousness when called upon. Or just run you through the boards later. Clarke was dangerous but he wasn't scary to boot. Messier was both.

Here is the video, Messier takes a run at Robinson. When they both get up off the ice Messier feigns swinging his stick at him. I don't think the Habs win if Robinson drops the gloves with Messier, because as you said there was so much more wrong with the Canadians in that series and this was a classic changing of the guard at this time. But is it possible that this is one of the first times that the legend of Messier grew? He is potentially crazy enough to swing his stick wildly at you and the whole "win at all costs" mentality was dripping off of Messier his entire career, and here as well. I wonder how much that factored into the whole "hey, stay away from that guy, he's crazy!"

 

[CrosbyIsKing87]

Have to say Clarke but I saw a lot more of Messier than I did of Clarke. I was born in 1969 so I was very young when he was at his prime. But Messier was also very dirty. The elbows were blatant and often premeditated. He is not remembered for this because of all the numbers he put up and Cups he won. Also most of that happened earlier in his career. But he was dirty.

 

[BobbyAwe]

Basically "stick" vs. "elbow" - I gotta say CLARKE. I don't know every dirty move Messier made in his career, but I have to believe his "intent to INJURE" was NOT on the same level as Clarke's.

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

Basically "stick" vs. "elbow" - I gotta say CLARKE. I don't know every dirty move Messier made in his career, but I have to believe his "intent to INJURE" was NOT on the same level as Clarke's.

I think part of the problem is we just dont have as much video evidence of the things Clarke did as we do with Messier. I figure this is probably because VHS didnt even exist in 1974, whereas by 1984 the vast majority of households would have had one.

 

[Legionnaire11]

Clarke...(also quite overrated).

Went point-per-game for seven straight seasons in his prime and won the Hart Trophy three times and a Pearson, he's a top-50 all-time scorer (11th at retirement) and was an 8x all-star plus 4x all-NHL team.

Not to mention that Clarke was the player that a young Wayne Gretzky watched to develop his behind the net strategy as well as just how to play the pro game as a smaller forward.

Just the opposite, I think Clarke is quite underrated, mostly because people do tend to focus on the dirty side and overlook what a great hockey player he actually was.

 

[The Macho King]

I don't like Messier but Clarke belongs in jail, absolutley disgusting player(also quite overrated).

One of the best pure defensive Cs of all time... overrated?

Have you looked at those Flyers rosters? It's Clarke, Parent, and a bunch of "huh"? Clarke is underrated - top 20 player of all time without a doubt in my mind.

 

[scott clam]

I believe that Clarke was the "dirtier" player, but Messier was more "dangerous".

 

[scott clam]

One of the best pure defensive Cs of all time... overrated?

Have you looked at those Flyers rosters? It's Clarke, Parent, and a bunch of "huh"? Clarke is underrated - top 20 player of all time without a doubt in my mind.

Reggie Leach is far from a "huh" player.

 

[The Macho King]

Reggie Leach is far from a "huh" player.

The guy with one PPG season and one postseason all star in his career?

At least go with Barber if you're going to come at me with that.

 

[scott clam]

The guy with one PPG season and one postseason all star in his career?

At least go with Barber if you're going to come at me with that.

The guy with a Conn Smythe, and who still holds(along with Kurri) the record for most goals ever in a playoff run...

 

[The Macho King]

The guy with a Conn Smythe and who still holds(along with Kurri) the record for most goals ever in a playoff run...

Claude Lemieux also has a Conn Smythe. Still a bowlful of "huh" when it comes down to it.

Players can get hot for a month and not be great players.

 

[scott clam]

Claude Lemieux also has a Conn Smythe. Still a bowlful of "huh" when it comes down to it.

Players can get hot for a month and not be great players.

Did Claude Lemieux ever score 60, let alone 50 goals in a season?

And Claude Lemieux is far from a "huh" player himself. Not a HOFer, but one of the most dangerous postseason players of his era.

 

[The Macho King]

Did Claude Lemieux ever score 60, let alone 50 goals in a season?

And Claude Lemieux is far from a "huh" player himself. Not a HOFer, but one of the most dangerous postseason players of his era.

Jesus Christ you can't make a hyperbolic statement on this forum without someone taking it literally.

Leach is trash. Lemieux is trash. They're not historically significant players (with the exception of one play in Lemieux's career). They are not worth discussing in this context. We're talking about whether Bobby Clarke is one of the greatest players of all time. Using Reggie f***ing Leach to act like he isn't the reason for Leach's success instead of vice versa is literally the dumbest thing I've read all day, and I've been an active participant in the discussions surrounding whether Rocket Richard's war seasons resulted in inflated statistics.

Well done. You took the crown.

 

[scott clam]

Jesus Christ you can't make a hyperbolic statement on this forum without someone taking it literally.

Leach is trash. Lemieux is trash. They're not historically significant players (with the exception of one play in Lemieux's career). They are not worth discussing in this context. We're talking about whether Bobby Clarke is one of the greatest players of all time. Using Reggie ****ing Leach to act like he isn't the reason for Leach's success instead of vice versa is literally the dumbest thing I've read all day, and I've been an active participant in the discussions surrounding whether Rocket Richard's war seasons resulted in inflated statistics.

Well done. You took the crown.

I'm sorry "macho man", I didn't mean to offend you.