Dirtiest player: Bobby Clarke or Mark Messier?

[Dingo]

i just watched game 1 from 72 recently. First thing i saw Clarke due was dumpma Russian and slash him in he head. Probably first shift. Cant really blame eacalated feelings at this point.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

In the 4th to last game of his career, Messier did this, and the league only handed down a 2-game suspension so he could play his farewell game

And so much more.

 

[PrimumHockeyist]

Messier was more of a run you through the boards, Charge you, hit you with an elbow in the corner like Gordie Howe and fight you if you have a problem with it sort of dirty hitter.

Clarke was more weasel. The kinda guy who would duck behind his big friends after using his stick like a surgeon to slash, spear and butt end you in the eye and slew footing you for good measure.

I lean this way vaguely. but does size differential come into these differing styles?

 

[BraveCanadian]

In the 4th to last game of his career, Messier did this, and the league only handed down a 2-game suspension so he could play his farewell game

That's just leadership, baby! (kidding)

Apart from being a legitimately great player, there is a certainly a ton of ego and sociopathic behaviour at work in Messier. But he won so nevermind all that.. really reflects on our society tbh. Really he's just another cheapshotting fake tough guy.

 

[#37]

That's just leadership, baby! (kidding)

Apart from being a legitimately great player, there is a certainly a ton of ego and sociopathic behaviour at work in Messier. But he won so nevermind all that.. really reflects on our society tbh. Really he's just another cheapshotting fake tough guy.

Cocaine.

 

[VanIslander]

Clarke had goons to fight his battles. It was infuriating.

Messier smiled and defended himself.

Gordie Howe was "Mr. Elbows".
He cheapshotted anyone who checked him.
And if someone cheapshotted him?... he never forgot and got pay back, even if it took years.

 

[The Panther]

Apart from being a legitimately great player, there is a certainly a ton of ego and sociopathic behaviour at work in Messier. But he won so nevermind all that.. really reflects on our society tbh.

Doesn't reflect out society at all. But it reflects the hockey culture of the 1930s to 1980s.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Clarke had goons to fight his battles. It was infuriating.

Messier smiled and defended himself.


Gordie Howe was "Mr. Elbows".
He cheapshotted anyone who checked him.
And if someone cheapshotted him?... he never forgot and got pay back, even if it took years.

Messier had 50 fights in his career. (from hockeyfights.com)

Clarke had 36. Probably would have fought more but he was too valuable to his team.

Howe had 10. No one wanted to go with him. And there were a lot less fights in the 06 era.

As for cheapshots, neither Clarke nor Howe left a trail of bodies behind them like Messier did.

 

[PrimumHockeyist]

Messier had 50 fights in his career. (from hockeyfights.com)

Clarke had 36. Probably would have fought more but he was too valuable to his team.

Howe had 10. No one wanted to go with him. And there were a lot less fights in the 06 era.

As for cheapshots, neither Clarke nor Howe left a trail of bodies behind them like Messier did.

Wow. Who would have thought that Gordie Howe only had 10 fights??? That's less than one fight every two seasons.

Did the shift in fights change quickly, after the league doubled to 12? Dryden may have alluded to this in his book, the Game, if I recall

 

[VanIslander]

Wow. Who would have thought that Gordie Howe only had 10 fights??? That's less than one fight every two seasons.

1. Have you seen his muscles?
2. He famously destroyed a goon's nose. With one punch.

No one wanted a piece of him.

 

[FerrisRox]

Messier had 50 fights in his career. (from hockeyfights.com)

Clarke had 36. Probably would have fought more but he was too valuable to his team.

Howe had 10. No one wanted to go with him. And there were a lot less fights in the 06 era.

As for cheapshots, neither Clarke nor Howe left a trail of bodies behind them like Messier did

Playing in the 1970's, on the Philadelphia Flyers, you could easily pad your fight totals by "pairing off" during line brawls and while Moose Dupont, Dave Schultz and Behn Wilson cave in someones face, you tug and pull on someones jersey for a few minutes with a grimace on your face and maybe throw a few punches and on the score sheet, your "fight" is the same as Schultz's but in reality, those aren't really the same thing at all.

(Not to mention, if Messier played during the 1970's, on the Philadelphia Flyers, he'd have triple the fight totals, easily. An enormous chunk of Messier's career was in an era when the fight numbers were way down.)

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Playing in the 1970's, on the Philadelphia Flyers, you could easily pad your fight totals by "pairing off" during line brawls and while Moose Dupont, Dave Schultz and Behn Wilson cave in someones face, you tug and pull on someones jersey for a few minutes with a grimace on your face and maybe throw a few punches and on the score sheet, your "fight" is the same as Schultz's but in reality, those aren't really the same thing at all.

(Not to mention, if Messier played during the 1970's, on the Philadelphia Flyers, he'd have triple the fight totals, easily. An enormous chunk of Messier's career was in an era when the fight numbers were way down.)

In reality, you are simply making up a scenario that benefits your view.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

From a quick look at their fight cards, their opponents look pretty similar. Neither one of them went toe-to-toe versus many serious tough guys. Looks like Clark tangled with Tiger Williams once, but largely he seemed to match up with guys like Darryl Sittler and Phil Esposito.
Messier did mix it up with Otto, Roberts, Peplinski and, most significantly McSorley, but also Josef Beranek, Kevin "Punching Bag" Haller and Moe Lemay.
Messier was, no doubt, the better fighter... he was bigger and stronger. But he definitely got his ass saved by the zebras when he took on Marty.

As an aside, who was the worse fighter, Kevin Haller or Keith Magnuson?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

From a quick look at their fight cards, their opponents look pretty similar. Neither one of them went toe-to-toe versus many serious tough guys. Looks like Clark tangled with Tiger Williams once, but largely he seemed to match up with guys like Darryl Sittler and Phil Esposito.Messier did mix it up with Otto, Roberts, Peplinski and, most significantly McSorley, but also Josef Beranek, Kevin "Punching Bag" Haller and Moe Lemay.Messier was, no doubt, the better fighter... he was bigger and stronger. But he definitely got his ass saved by the zebras when he took on Marty.
As an aside, who was the worst fighter, Kevin Haller or Keith Magnuson?

Magnuson.

The Clarke to Messier comparison as fighters was not intended. It was brought up in response to the impression made that Clarke reeked havoc and hid behind the bullies while Messier was dropping his gloves whenever challenged.

Certainly Messier was the better and more willing fighter.

 

[oilexport]

This is so interesting to me, because I always presumed it was Clarke due to the Kharlamov incident, but @BenchBrawl is right that part of the notoriety of that is the huge stage it happened on. I know Messier threatened Larry Robinson with a baseball swing once, but I don't know if he ever had an incident to the level of what happened to Kharlamov, and if whether that one incident is indicative of Bobby Clarke's regular play.

I remember the stick locked and loaded if Larry came any closer to Mess (during the playoffs). A young Mark, was scared of big Larry, hence the "kessel" type defence.

Mark brought so much more in terms of speed, skill, and scoring. Clark was more on the dirty side, all the time.

 

[BB79]

Bobby Clarke vs. Kharlamov & Pospisil





Also extremely dirty nearing on psychopathy. Both quite cowardly too.

Look at all of those guys named Canada

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I remember the stick locked and loaded if Larry came any closer to Mess (during the playoffs). A young Mark, was scared of big Larry, hence the "kessel" type defence.

Mark brought so much more in terms of speed, skill, and scoring. Clark was more on the dirty side, all the time.

Bobby Clarke, 3 time Hart trophy winner. Messier brought much more?

Messier was dirtier. A predator.

 

[Iron Mike Sharpe]

Funny thread. Clarke and Messier were different beasts.

Messier belongs in a select category of guys along with Howe, Robinson, Potvin and Pronger, guys who brought an unparalleled psychological intimidation factor to their games that contributed to their total domination of their opponents, especially in key situations like the playoffs. With each of these guys, other players feared them because they played with the vibe that they'd slice a guy's head off to win if they had to. And these guys all had that one big shocking incident early in their careers that helped put them over, and you can note that throughout their careers they likely had more guys backing down or trying to play through their games than actually challenging them.

At one point Messier and his sidekick Anderson had Linseman riding shotgun, and I tell you, my friends, that line has a good shot to claim the title for dirtiest line in history. Anderson and Linseman were both more in the mould of Clarke, weasels slashing and spearing their way through games. Messier's dirty stickwork wasn't quite as impressive in volume as his linemates, but it was arguably more effective when doled out strategically. Sather's roster-building startegy always seemed to include dirty guys & pests during that era.

Clarke would dirty guys and either back down or let someone else step up. It was a unique dynamic that has never been replicated with as much success because few guys as dirty as Clarke have been the franchise players of their team, and the dirty guys that have emerged in the decades following Clarke have tended to be complementary players, or guys who fought their own battles. Marchand is maybe closest but he's playing in a very different era.

 

[VanIslander]

Canucks fans and Devils fans know what its like to have the dirtiest player on the ice be the most beloved (Tiger Williams) or the team captain (Scott Stevens).

 

[Staniowski]

Clarke at his best was the dirtiest star player I've ever seen. He played dirty. In his worst games, he probably committed more dirty acts than Messier did in 20 or 30 games. But Messier hurt more people, and as noted by Iron Mike Sharpe above, he was more strategic about his elbows, cross-checks, etc. than Clarke was.

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

Clarke was dirtier but Messier was a bigger POS.

 

[VanIslander]

Clarke was dirtier but Messier was a bigger POS.

The opposite.

Every NHLer wanted to have drinks with Mess but they had no more than tepid praise for Clarke.

I was there.

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

The opposite.

Every NHLer wanted to have drinks with Mess but they had no more than tepid praise for Clarke.

I was there.

As a Canuck fan, I stand by my post.

 

[jcs0218]

I wasn't alive during Clarke's prime.

But my Father has often told me that Bobby Clarke was the dirtiest hockey player that ever lived.

 

[VanIslander]

I wasn't alive during Clarke's prime.

But my Father has often told me that Bobby Clarke was the dirtiest hockey player that ever lived.

Clarke was a weasel.