Did the Hawks tank?

[666]

Leaf fan here, I come in peace even with my controversial topic title

I’m having a debate with my fellow Leaf fans about our current situation and I think the Leafs management is intentionally tanking but they think that we are emulating Chicago in trying to build a perennial contender. The question is did Chicago tank?

Here’s my understanding of Chicago’s history in the critical years.

2000 horrible but picked 9th overall

2001 made the playoffs but lost Amonte to UFA because Wirtz is cheap, drafted Babchuk 21, Keith at 54:That’s not tanking it’s just picking really well.

2002 signed Fluery to replace Amonte but Fleury suspended, pick Seabrooke at 14: That’s not tanking.

2003 started well lost Thibault to injury traded Sullivan age 29 and Zamnov who was 33 at the deadline, picked Barker at 3: It looks like they tried to win, lost their goaltender and then decided to rebuild by dumping vets

2004 cancelled

2005 signed Khabibulin and Acouin to win but injuries hit both and Daze retired, picked Toews at 3:I don’t think that was intentionally losing.

2006 signed Havlat and Smolinski, both got injured Havlet still top scorer, picked Kane at 1: Was this a tank?

2007 Wirtz dies almost made the playoffs and the rest is history.

So my question is was 2006 a tank or was it injuries. Do any Hawks fans feel that that era was a tank or did management try to win and just got unlucky mostly with injuries? Did Wirtz do so much damage that it could be compared to tanking?

My opinion is that Chicago drafted amazing while trying to ice a competitive team but kept getting serious injuries or bad luck. They didn’t tank.

Thanks in advance.

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[ClydeLee]

I think the general view is they weren't spending or making moves to keep great players around due to the financial efforts. Obviously they made some signings post-lockout to fill the needed quota of the cap minimum, but there wasn't any perceived notion of them losing/trading away players to intentionally be bad to get good picks.

Maybe some would try to question the actions of Mike Smith & Dale Tallon at that but it seemed pretty clear the team was just run cheapy FO wise as well from the top Bill's directives.

 

[DPHawk]

Handzus was also added to the 06-07 team to provide help and ended up missing pretty much the whole year (8 GP). The Hawks also only finished with the 5th worst record but got lucky and won the lottery.

 

[DisgruntledHawkFan]

We tried and failed, we didn't try to fail.

 

[JackStrawMan]

As someone who went to all of those games after the lockout no. Team was built as if the league never changed and honestly just sucked.

Ownership was atrocious, really just a very awful team. Not gonna win a lot of games with Michael Holmqvist, Denis Arkiphov, Danny Richmond in your lineup.

Also, didn't even finish dead last in the league or conference. Team just blew and got really lucky in the lottery, I remember that draft party when we had #1 too, about 200 people there, and Jack Skille on stage as our other "Top" prospect

 

[666]

Handzus was also added to the 06-07 team to provide help and ended up missing pretty much the whole year (8 GP). The Hawks also only finished with the 5th worst record but got lucky and won the lottery.

Thanks, I didn't know that. That's pretty huge.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

Knowing the past organization, I'm sure that if they had intentionally tried to fail, they would've accidentally been top-tier contenders instead. Couldn't even fail right.

Team was just poorly run and got very lucky that neither the Blues nor Pens took Toews and then we won the Kane lottery the year after.

 

[BK]

Knowing the past organization, I'm sure that if they had intentionally tried to fail, they would've accidentally been top-tier contenders instead. Couldn't even fail right.

Team was just poorly run and got very lucky that neither the Blues nor Pens took Toews and then we won the Kane lottery the year after.

This.

The Hawks did not tank but they are proof that you do need 1-2 high pick superstars to win in this league and add selectively after that with other pick hitting. (Detroit is an outlier).

LA - Kopitar, Doughty, Carter, Gaborik
Boston - Bergeron, Chara, Krejic, Rask
Chicago - Kane, Toews, Hossa, Keith, Seabs

 

[x Tame Impala]

Admittedly I wasn't a Hawks fan until after Toews and Kane were drafted so correct me if I'm wrong, but i always thought that the Hawks didn't tank, they just had an owner who was running them into the ground to save $$$$. That the last thing Bill Wirtz wanted was a championship team because it meant he'd have to pay for it.

"Tanking" is losing on purpose in order to eventually get better. Bill Wirtz's Hawks lost because he didn't want to ever make them better.

 

[MurrayBannerman]

Combine Wirtz' cheapness with terrible drafting and player management and you have the Hawks of yesteryear.

All the missed passes.

 

[BK]

Admittedly I wasn't a Hawks fan until after Toews and Kane were drafted so correct me if I'm wrong, but i always thought that the Hawks didn't tank, they just had an owner who was running them into the ground to save $$$$. That the last thing Bill Wirtz wanted was a championship team because it meant he'd have to pay for it.

"Tanking" is losing on purpose in order to eventually get better. Bill Wirtz's Hawks lost because he didn't want to ever make them better.

You are correct. Rocky asked his father for control a few times before he passed with the intentions and making the team a profitable winner but Dollar Bill refused. Honestly at the end it was embarrassing to be a Hawks fan growing living in Detroit.

 

[Sarava]

No the Hawks didn't tank, they just sucked. Switching to another team in town - the Cubs did tank, and it looks to be paying off greatly. So whether you do it on purpose or not, it can work real well. But most teams don't come out of the basement as well as the Hawks and Cubs have.

 

[piteus]

According to Fiddy ... the Hawks are tanking this season as well.

Don't forget, Bill Wirtz was our owner. He didn't care as long as he filled the stadium and sold his alcohol. So in essence, the Hawks have tanked for decades.

I'm a true believer in sabrmetrics and that winning runs in cycles. It's never good to be average. If you're going to be bad ... be bad. However, you can't be like the Sixers or Edmonton. You need a plan ... a willingness to spend. And most importantly, you need to maintain a strong culture or young assets become aimless like in Edmonton. Tha Hawks got lucky with Keith, Seabs, Toews, Kane, Hjarlmasson, etc. But we also brought in the likes of Bowman, Hossa, Soupy, Q, experienced vets, etc. to lead the talent. When the time was right, the Hawks were willing to go for it ... maximize the championship window.

Toronto did the right thing bringing Babock. They need a complete rebuild. But are they really tanking? They are talking about signing Stamkos. IMO, a proper rebuild will take more time. Toronto should just sign some vets with character to nature the younger players. And if you want to give up JVR for 2 seconds, the Hawks are game

Toronto is a basketball city now. Get used to it for a while, especially if they go wild in FA next year.

 

[chicagoskycam]

If you consider tanking = to the previous owner and father of Rocky sucking at running a hockey franchise then yes. It's not even close to the same situation the Leafs are in.

 

[chicagoskycam]

No the Hawks didn't tank, they just sucked. Switching to another team in town - the Cubs did tank, and it looks to be paying off greatly. So whether you do it on purpose or not, it can work real well. But most teams don't come out of the basement as well as the Hawks and Cubs have.

Baseball isn't really a sport where tanking is going to make any bit of difference, draft picks are so far out there in terms of development. Theo had a plan to turn the franchise around with a timetable. That is not tanking. I think last year's success so early even took Cubs management by surprise.

 

[BK]

Baseball isn't really a sport where tanking is going to make any bit of difference, draft picks are so far out there in terms of development. Theo had a plan to turn the franchise around with a timetable. That is not tanking. I think last year's success so early even took Cubs management by surprise.

The Cubs 100% tanked and that was part of Theo/Judd's plan. They told fans the team would be bad at the start and that this would be a process.

 

[chicagoskycam]

The Cubs 100% tanked and that was part of Theo/Judd's plan. They told fans the team would be bad at the start and that this would be a process.

You're confusing rebuilding and retooling with tanking. It's not the same thing. The fact that the GM communicates it from the get go should tell you something.

 

[Teemu]

Handzus was also added to the 06-07 team to provide help and ended up missing pretty much the whole year (8 GP). The Hawks also only finished with the 5th worst record but got lucky and won the lottery.

Ruutu was also the recent #1 prospect in hockey and was supposed to make a much greater impact that year than he did.

05-06 was more of a matter of the Hawks' new FAs not being appropriate for the new NHL.

 

[hockeydoug]

The only time the team decided to tank was in the fall of 2003 when they booted Mike Smith and some of his staff and sold everything that wasn't physically attached to something. Even then, the focus was about saving money prior to the planned lockout rather than setting up hockey ops for long term success.

Smith tried to win each year on the job and failed outside of marginal surprised success in 2002.
Tallon tried to win each year on the job and failed until help arrived.

Chicago wasn't organized or competent enough to orchestrate a full tank anyway. I think most fans between 1999 and 2007 would have been okay with what Toronto was doing. I don't think there's too much to compare outside of places in the standings and problems with the scouting and development staff.

 

[BK]

You're confusing rebuilding and retooling with tanking. It's not the same thing.

I am not confusing it at all. They took everything apart and knew they were going to lose which would result in a high draft pick. This is tanking.

 

[chicagoskycam]

I am not confusing it at all. They took everything apart and knew they were going to lose which would result in a high draft pick. This is tanking.

Getting rid of players that don't fit in your system is not tanking. By your definition then every rebuild team is tanking. You really think that high draft pick in 1 year is the secret to the Cubs turn around. lol.

 

[hockeydoug]

Baseball isn't really a sport where tanking is going to make any bit of difference, draft picks are so far out there in terms of development. Theo had a plan to turn the franchise around with a timetable. That is not tanking. I think last year's success so early even took Cubs management by surprise.

I think MLB is the closes comparison to the NHL in terms of pro team management philosophies, mostly because the timelines for development are so similar.

The Cubs were going "full tank" at every level of the organization as soon as the 2012 CBA was agreed upon.

 

[piteus]

Baseball isn't really a sport where tanking is going to make any bit of difference, draft picks are so far out there in terms of development. Theo had a plan to turn the franchise around with a timetable. That is not tanking.

Theo is about collecting assets. Signing assets when their value is at a trough. Flipping those assets to collect even more assets. Beefing about the scouting department to collect even better assets. Taking advantage of inefficiencies in the market.

Theo did everything to collect as many young assets as possible and take advantage of the inefficiencies of the international FA market. He believe many young talents fail ... hence, it's better to have a bucket of talent, rather than to bank on a number of guys. He also got lucky with some of his draft picks which accelerated the process. Theo also brought in character vets, young players, and even Maddon to maintain a strong culture.

One thing Theo did ... he had the insight to value hitters higher than pitchers. Maybe he saw that the end of PED era would hurt hitting. Maybe it was just plain luck. Whatever it was, the Cubs have plenty of hitting young assets to flip into great pitching if necessary. But even then, Theo believes in selling high, buying low. The secret in any business. He has patience.

 

[chicagoskycam]

Theo is about collecting assets. Signing assets when their value is at a trough. Flipping those assets to collect even more assets. Beefing about the scouting department to collect even better assets. Taking advantage of inefficiencies in the market.

Theo did everything to collect as many young assets as possible and take advantage of the inefficiencies of the international FA market. He believe many young talents fail ... hence, it's better to have a bucket of talent, rather than to bank on a number of guys. He also got lucky with some of his draft picks which accelerated the process. Theo also brought in character vets, young players, and even Maddon to maintain a strong culture.

One thing Theo did ... he had the insight to value hitters higher than pitchers. Maybe he saw that the end of PED era would hurt hitting. Maybe it was just plain luck. Whatever it was, the Cubs have plenty of hitting young assets to flip into great pitching if necessary. But even then, Theo believes in selling high, buying low. The secret in any business. He has patience.

I agree with all of this but is this purposely tanking the tank to benefit from 1 or 2 high draft picks or is it a symptom of the rebuild. It's pretty much #2.

 

[hockeydoug]

You're confusing rebuilding and retooling with tanking. It's not the same thing. The fact that the GM communicates it from the get go should tell you something.

They were even tanking on the CBA, after all the ownership volatility, making sure they were compliant quickly, probably to gain some leverage for the next CBA.

There is nothing to confuse. They were losing on purpose and doing everything they could to lose now, including money, to gain for later. No tank tread was spared, and the major part of the plan was probably well laid out before they even hired Theo.