News Article: Did Buffalo kill its chances of winning the Connor McDavid sweepstakes?

[haseoke39]

Hell, I expected Reinhart to be here putting up 40 points. If girgensons grabs couple of those and goes from being a 40 point guy to a 50, is say we're not far off from being where we thought we'd be on net as far as the kids are concerned. Ristolainen was supposed to be in our top 4. There's not really a straight face on expecting these kids to be core players on a cup team but not even competent contributors on a bottom 5 team just because it's not the right year yet.

If we wanted to finish last on a team with 3-4 young first round picks breaking in all at once, we needed to bring in liabilities. Substantial improvement should be part of the plan.

 

[Jame]

Hell, I expected Reinhart to be here putting up 40 points. If girgensons grabs couple of those and goes from being a 40 point guy to a 50, is say we're not far off from being where we thought we'd be on net as far as the kids are concerned. Ristolainen was supposed to be in our top 4. There's not really a straight face on expecting these kids to be core players on a cup team but not even competent contributors on a bottom 5 team just because it's not the right year yet.

If we wanted to finish last on a team with 3-4 young first round picks breaking in all at once, we needed to bring in liabilities. Substantial improvement should be part of the plan.

But that's not what this thread was about at all....

This thread was about whether the additions of Moulson, Gorges, Meszaros, Benoit, and McCormick kill their chances at McDavid.

Re-reading the article is actually pretty interesting, as it points to "sowing the seeds", and while Murray may regret the moves if it pushes them out of McDavid, the culture change and seeds planted have a lot of value themselves.

The only thing the article failed at... was identifying who would actually drive the tank off track. It wasn't the free agent/trade acquistions. A few solid additions and a bum or 2... but the real culprits were already here.

It's the rapid growth of Girgensons/Risto/Zadorov.... combined with 3 other young NHLers taking the next step in Myers, Ennis, and Enroth.

 

[Irving Zisman]

But that's not what this thread was about at all....

This thread was about whether the additions of Moulson, Gorges, Meszaros, Benoit, and McCormick kill their chances at McDavid.

Re-reading the article is actually pretty interesting, as it points to "sowing the seeds", and while Murray may regret the moves if it pushes them out of McDavid, the culture change and seeds planted have a lot of value themselves.

The only thing the article failed at... was identifying who would actually drive the tank off track. It wasn't the free agent/trade acquistions. A few solid additions and a bum or 2... but the real culprits were already here.

It's the rapid growth of Girgensons/Risto/Zadorov.... combined with 3 other young NHLers taking the next step in Myers, Ennis, and Enroth.

Great post

 

[haseoke39]

But that's not what this thread was about at all....

This thread was about whether the additions of Moulson, Gorges, Meszaros, Benoit, and McCormick kill their chances at McDavid.

Re-reading the article is actually pretty interesting, as it points to "sowing the seeds", and while Murray may regret the moves if it pushes them out of McDavid, the culture change and seeds planted have a lot of value themselves.

The only thing the article failed at... was identifying who would actually drive the tank off track. It wasn't the free agent/trade acquistions. A few solid additions and a bum or 2... but the real culprits were already here.

It's the rapid growth of Girgensons/Risto/Zadorov.... combined with 3 other young NHLers taking the next step in Myers, Ennis, and Enroth.

Different ways of looking at the same thing, IMO. We needed to bring in liabilities and we didn't. The fact that gionta/moulson/Strachan/gorges aren't the leaders of the turnaround doesn't mean they're not being more competent than we can afford while finishing last. I'm not endorsing the perspective of the article strictly, just saying we shouldn't be surprised. Go back to that thread about where we end up finishing, this is about what I said then. The kids will be better than they were last year and the rest of the roster is closer to average than the waiver wire carousel we used last year. I think I specifically said if we're five points out by Christmas Murray will have to make his mark early. Here we are, well see what happens.

 

[Jame]

Different ways of looking at the same thing, IMO.

if one way is looking at the facts, and the other way is creating a myth.

We needed to bring in liabilities and we didn't. The fact that gionta/moulson/Strachan/gorges aren't the leaders of the turnaround doesn't mean they're not being more competent than we can afford while finishing last.

there was a cap floor to meet. He made pedestrian moves.

I'm not endorsing the perspective of the article strictly, just saying we shouldn't be surprised.

We shouldn't be surprised that Enroth is playing Vezina level hockey over a full month?

We shouldn't be surprised that Girgensons has taken over a legit #1 all around center role, and thrived in it?

We shouldn't be surprised that Ristodorov is playing 20+ and looking like 25 year old young vets?

We shouldn't be surprised that we are competitive with a second line of Flynn-Mitchell-Gionta? Seriously, that's barely a 3rd line on 20 of the teams in the NHL.

We shouldn't be surprised that sending 3 20 goal scorers to the bottom 6, would improve our performance?

We shouldn't be surprised that the Tyler's have finally taken the next step (under the circumstances of this roster)?

We shouldn't be surprised that ALL of this is happening, at the same time?

I am surprised. And I give a lot of credit to the coaching staff.

If you are not surprised by all of this, you never should've been a believer in the tank to begin with.

Go back to that thread about where we end up finishing, this is about what I said then.

Yes, it's quite clear that this is about trying to say "I was right" as a way to deal with the disappointment of probably missing out on McEichel, instead of actually looking at what's going on.

The kids will be better than they were last year and the rest of the roster is closer to average than the waiver wire carousel we used last year.

sure, that's a statement that's generic enough to allow you to pretend it encompasses what's actually happening with the "kids"

 

[haseoke39]

if one way is looking at the facts, and the other way is creating a myth.




there was a cap floor to meet. He made pedestrian moves.




We shouldn't be surprised that Enroth is playing Vezina level hockey over a full month?

We shouldn't be surprised that Girgensons has taken over a legit #1 all around center role, and thrived in it?

We shouldn't be surprised that Ristodorov is playing 20+ and looking like 25 year old young vets?

We shouldn't be surprised that we are competitive with a second line of Flynn-Mitchell-Gionta? Seriously, that's barely a 3rd line on 20 of the teams in the NHL.

We shouldn't be surprised that sending 3 20 goal scorers to the bottom 6, would improve our performance?

We shouldn't be surprised that the Tyler's have finally taken the next step (under the circumstances of this roster)?

We shouldn't be surprised that ALL of this is happening, at the same time?

I am surprised. And I give a lot of credit to the coaching staff.

If you are not surprised by all of this, you never should've been a believer in the tank to begin with.




Yes, it's quite clear that this is about trying to say "I was right" as a way to deal with the disappointment of probably missing out on McEichel, instead of actually looking at what's going on.




sure, that's a statement that's generic enough to allow you to pretend it encompasses what's actually happening with the "kids"

Not sure why you're so upset by this. To your point about whether or not I was ever a believer in the tank, I was never a believer that we'd be in 30th place this year, just that we ought to be. I thought it would take significant in-season help, and I still do.

 

[Jame]

Not sure why you're so upset by this. To your point about whether or not I was ever a believer in the tank, I was never a believer that we'd be in 30th place this year, just that we ought to be. I thought it would take significant in-season help, and I still do.

Im not upset. just nipping false narratives in the bud... before they grow into fully accepted myths.

You never believed we'd be in 30th... but your reasoning was all wrong.

 

[haseoke39]

Im not upset. just nipping false narratives in the bud... before they grow into fully accepted myths.

You never believed we'd be in 30th... but your reasoning was all wrong.

What was my reasoning?

 

[Jame]

What was my reasoning?

yawn...

We needed to bring in liabilities and we didn't.

 

[haseoke39]

yawn...

Not sure what you're saying, actually.

 

[Jame]

We did bring in liabilities and we played guys in ways that made them a liability.

You can't expect the coach not to work to removed those liabilities.

Liability - Meszaros-Benoit 2nd pair
Coach - replaced with Zadorov-Ristolainen

Liability - Ennis at #1 center
Coach - replaced with Girgensons

Liability - Chris Stewart
Coach - replaced minutes/role with Flynn and Deslauriers

Liability - Hodgson
Coach - replaced minutes/role with Torrey Mitchell


We had an awful, dead last roster, as constructed by Murray... Ted Nolan waved his "Compete" wand over it... made some SIGNIFICANT changes... and here we are.

If Murray had added lesser quality vet players (that's a stretch), Nolan still would've had the ingredients to replace them. And we'd be in a similar place.

 

[Jame]

Not sure what you're saying, actually.

I'm saying your view that Murray did too much to improve the team and thus hurt the tank (or didn't do enough to ensure the tank) is a false narrative.

 

[haseoke39]

We did bring in liabilities and we played guys in ways that made them a liability.

You can't expect the coach not to work to removed those liabilities.

Liability - Meszaros-Benoit 2nd pair
Coach - replaced with Zadorov-Ristolainen

Liability - Ennis at #1 center
Coach - replaced with Girgensons

Liability - Chris Stewart
Coach - replaced minutes/role with Flynn and Deslauriers

Liability - Hodgson
Coach - replaced minutes/role with Torrey Mitchell


We had an awful, dead last roster, as constructed by Murray... Ted Nolan waved his "Compete" wakefulness over it... made some SIGNIFICANT changes... and here we are.

If Murray had added lesser quality vet players (that's a stretch), Nolan still would've had the ingredients to replace them. And we'd be in a similar place.

You make some good points but it's an incomplete view IMO. gorges and strachan are the ones keeping Benoit and mess out of the lineup at this point. Gionta and moulson could've been much worse players, and if we were serious about finishing last while having the kids improve, probably needed to be.

 

[brian_griffin]

Different ways of looking at the same thing, IMO. We needed to bring in liabilities and we didn't. The fact that gionta/moulson/Strachan/gorges aren't the leaders of the turnaround doesn't mean they're not being more competent than we can afford while finishing last. I'm not endorsing the perspective of the article strictly, just saying we shouldn't be surprised. Go back to that thread about where we end up finishing, this is about what I said then. The kids will be better than they were last year and the rest of the roster is closer to average than the waiver wire carousel we used last year. I think I specifically said if we're five points out by Christmas Murray will have to make his mark early. Here we are, well see what happens.

Sabres didn't need to bring in liabilities - they were the worst possession team in the league. Their goal differential, league-worst Goals-for, and near-worst goals-against proved that. They were the worst in the league by a comfortable measure, and honestly remain so today. They are just getting remakably lucky with their hot goaltending, lack of significant injuries, unexpected growth of 3-5 youngsters, and an en fuego top line.

if one way is looking at the facts, and the other way is creating a myth.

there was a cap floor to meet. He made pedestrian moves.

We shouldn't be surprised that Enroth is playing Vezina level hockey over a full month? surprise #1

We shouldn't be surprised that Girgensons has taken over a legit #1 all around center role, and thrived in it? surprise #2

We shouldn't be surprised that Ristodorov is playing 20+ and looking like 25 year old young vets? surprise #3

We shouldn't be surprised that we are competitive with a second line of Flynn-Mitchell-Gionta? Seriously, that's barely a 3rd line on 20 of the teams in the NHL. surprise #4

We shouldn't be surprised that sending 3 20 goal scorers to the bottom 6, would improve our performance? (Hodgson, Stafford, Stewart) surprise #5

We shouldn't be surprised that the Tyler's have finally taken the next step (under the circumstances of this roster)? surprise #6

No major injuries = surprise #7

and, in terms of the Tank Battle, Edmonton on an historically bad run = surprise #8

and, in terms of the Tank Battle, Sabres earning points despite still having poor posession numbers - despite the player improvements noted above, they're still a poor posession team - and despite being outshot almost every night without fail? = surprise #9

We shouldn't be surprised that ALL of this is happening, at the same time? ALL of it at the same time = surprise #10

I am surprised. And I give a lot of credit to the coaching staff.

If you are not surprised by all of this, you never should've been a believer in the tank to begin with.

...

Multiple surprises.

 

[haseoke39]

So maybe I was unrealistic expecting to finish outside of last, but I'll take unrealistic at this point. And I'll be pleased as ten peaches if I even yet turn out to be wrong.

 

[brian_griffin]

We did bring in liabilities and we played guys in ways that made them a liability.

You can't expect the coach not to work to removed those liabilities.

Liability - Meszaros-Benoit 2nd pair
Coach - replaced with Zadorov-Ristolainen

Liability - Ennis at #1 center
Coach - replaced with Girgensons

Liability - Chris Stewart
Coach - replaced minutes/role with Flynn and Deslauriers

Liability - Hodgson
Coach - replaced minutes/role with Torrey Mitchell


We had an awful, dead last roster, as constructed by Murray... Ted Nolan waved his "Compete" wand over it... made some SIGNIFICANT changes... and here we are.

If Murray had added lesser quality vet players (that's a stretch), Nolan still would've had the ingredients to replace them. And we'd be in a similar place.

Good points, this is where Nolan gets credit for creating a portion of 4 of the surprises in your original list (surprises #2, #3, #4, #5). Granted, the players needed to respond, but the coach providing the opportunities at the right time / sequence, set up those surprises.

 

[LaFontaineToMogilny]

Edmonton tanking super hard is NOT a surprise. If anything, the surprise is that not more teams are tanking harder than they are right now.

I don't know if it is reflected in the records, but one of the main reasons why I have always referred to drafting McDavid or Eichel as a pipe dream is because people don't take into account the lengths teams that are set up a lot worse than us will go to join that race.

 

[joshjull]

To answer the thread question. No we did not kill our chances at getting McDavid but we probably reduced them. The only way to actually kill them would be to make the playoffs.