Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - part IV

[TheUnseenHand]

These two statements are entirely in conflict with each other.

You can be a good player that is less effective in one situation than another.

 

[NJDfan86]

You can be a good player that is less effective in one situation than another.

The whole point of square peg / round hole is that the peg doesn't fit - there is simply no evidence that Toffoli didn't fit here.

 

[JrFischer54]

the return the devils got for toff was an absolute joke. i wouldn't have moved him for what fitz did those picks aren't going to matter in the grand scheme of things. devils at the time of the trade weren't going anywhere but they still had a super slim chance at the playoffs. funny the chances look like they improved slightly now lol.

i get the "not to lose a player for nothing crowd" is going to chime in but face it the devils practically got nothing for him. would rather have him on the team right now honestly

 

[Billdo]

the return the devils got for toff was an absolute joke. i wouldn't have moved him for what fitz did those picks aren't going to matter in the grand scheme of things. devils at the time of the trade weren't going anywhere but they still had a super slim chance at the playoffs. funny the chances look like they improved slightly now lol.

i get the "not to lose a player for nothing crowd" is going to chime in but face it the devils practically got nothing for him. would rather have him on the team right now honestly

The picks aren't nothing. They can be used as part of a bigger piece this summer.

 

[Call Me Al]

if you think that Tyler Toffoli was going to have some huge impact on whether we made the playoffs or not, you probably had too high of expectations from the start.

There are a handful of other reasons way more pressing as to why this team is likely going to miss the playoffs.

By your logic, no one on the team is having anything other than a bad season because we're likely to miss the playoffs. I don't see it that way whatsoever.

“help” ≠ “huge impact” so you start this off with a hyperbolic interpretation of what i said.

everything we got from toffoli was in a lost season. so i don’t care how good he was, not even a little bit.

your last paragraph is bananas - this conversation isn’t “did toffoli have a good season?” or “did anyone have a good season?” yes he had a good season. other players had good seasons. who the f*** cares? we’re out of the playoffs. it was for nothing. he’s never going to have an impact on us winning anything.

do i think sharangovich would have been more helpful than toffoli in winning a stanley cup? i do, because toffoli isn’t even here anymore.

this isn’t about going back to the trade and saying i would make it again from that moment in time. it’s looking back and saying was it worth it? to me, it was not. i’d rather have sharangovich for a couple more seasons than two draft picks over the next two seasons, sue me.

 

[Call Me Al]

regretting the trade isn’t thinking that sharangovich is this amazing player or that toffoli sucks, it’s that one year ago we had a player who was young, useful in many situations, could score goals, and wouldn’t cost a ton, and now we have a 2nd round pick next year and a 3rd this year and a legitimately embarrassing bottom 6. sorry for not being excited about that?

 

[AfroThunder396]

regretting the trade isn’t thinking that sharangovich is this amazing player or that toffoli sucks, it’s that one year ago we had a player who was young, useful in many situations, could score goals, and wouldn’t cost a ton, and now we have a 2nd round pick next year and a 3rd this year and a legitimately embarrassing bottom 6. sorry for not being excited about that?

How much better do you think the bottom-6 would be with Sharangovich? He was a healthy healthy scratch last year, but you think him getting 9 minutes a night with Willman and Tierney would make the team that much better?

If he was going to be in Toffoli's spot then we wouldn't have traded him for Toffoli.

 

[TrufleShufle]

I really hope the people who use "he was a healthy scratch" aren't the same people who lost their minds every time someone said that about Tatar and were angry people weren't excited about having him on the team. Because that would be very strange.

 

[JrFischer54]

The picks aren't nothing. They can be used as part of a bigger piece this summer.

we will always think differently about this type of stuff but those picks aren't going to move the needle in a trade for a big time player. if your trading for a top line top d top goalie the major details aren't going to be a throw in 3rd rounder or a 2nd rounder in 2025 if it is? just throw in the 26 2nd rounder or 3rd rounder when they become available.

 

[NJDfan86]

we will always think differently about this type of stuff but those picks aren't going to move the needle in a trade for a big time player. if your trading for a top line top d top goalie the major details aren't going to be a throw in 3rd rounder or a 2nd rounder in 2025 if it is? just throw in the 26 2nd rounder or 3rd rounder when they become available.

Hear me out here - make that big trade the way you want with picks we didn't acquire for Toffoli, then use the pieces we DID get for Toffoli to get another useful player.

 

[MasterofGrond]

the return the devils got for toff was an absolute joke. i wouldn't have moved him for what fitz did those picks aren't going to matter in the grand scheme of things. devils at the time of the trade weren't going anywhere but they still had a super slim chance at the playoffs. funny the chances look like they improved slightly now lol.

i get the "not to lose a player for nothing crowd" is going to chime in but face it the devils practically got nothing for him. would rather have him on the team right now honestly

Those picks could clearly be used to get another player of Toffoli's ilk next season, when it matters more.

Or for the goalie everybody knows we need.

Or to help fill out our bottom 6 with somebody worth sending out there with a little cost control. Lazar only cost the Devils a 4th, and he's been a godsend.

Picks aren't just future prospects. They're flexible assets.

we will always think differently about this type of stuff but those picks aren't going to move the needle in a trade for a big time player. if your trading for a top line top d top goalie the major details aren't going to be a throw in 3rd rounder or a 2nd rounder in 2025 if it is? just throw in the 26 2nd rounder or 3rd rounder when they become available.

Yes and then if you send the 26 2nd and 3rd in a deal, we dont have those picks to send in a different deal at a future deadline etc etc.

We didn't get a first, but more picks is more ammunition, full stop. Not like the Devils took a 6th for him, teams value 2nds.

 

[NJDfan86]

Those picks could clearly be used to get another player of Toffoli's ilk next season, when it matters more.

Or for the goalie everybody knows we need.

Or to help fill out our bottom 6 with somebody worth sending out there with a little cost control. Lazar only cost the Devils a 4th, and he's been a godsend.

Picks aren't just future prospects. They're flexible assets.

Not only are they flexible - unlike other assets you are not limited in how many you can accrue as opposed to salary and contract slots.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

I would rather have the 2nd round pick than Sharangovich. Would much rather use that cap for a player that is strong in areas we are weak in. There are a number of wings that fit that description in free agency. Fitz could easily use that pick to add defensive depth too.

 

[Triumph]

“help” ≠ “huge impact” so you start this off with a hyperbolic interpretation of what i said.

everything we got from toffoli was in a lost season. so i don’t care how good he was, not even a little bit.

The discussion is therefore over. Any asinine version of 'We finished in last place with you, we can finish in last place without you' is just not a sensible way to talk about a hockey team's performance. Some players are contributing to wins, some players are a slight drag on winning, but the Devils are going to end the season with 80-something points instead of 35-40 and the reason they are is going to be the players contributing to the wins over replacement that they got. Toffoli is one of those players.

your last paragraph is bananas - this conversation isn’t “did toffoli have a good season?” or “did anyone have a good season?” yes he had a good season. other players had good seasons. who the f*** cares? we’re out of the playoffs. it was for nothing. he’s never going to have an impact on us winning anything.

do i think sharangovich would have been more helpful than toffoli in winning a stanley cup? i do, because toffoli isn’t even here anymore.

this isn’t about going back to the trade and saying i would make it again from that moment in time. it’s looking back and saying was it worth it? to me, it was not. i’d rather have sharangovich for a couple more seasons than two draft picks over the next two seasons, sue me.

You're assuming the Devils would've even qualified Sharangovich after last season. I don't think they would have, and I don't think if they didn't qualify him, that he would stay - what reason would he have to stay here? You can't keep everyone, and you especially can't keep everyone when they've been benched.

I'll acknowledge that Sharangovich was a more fun player to watch than Toffoli, who gave me Jack Parkman vibes early on and wasn't going to be a fan favorite even if he scored 5 more goals. Absolutely can't disagree there.

 

[AfroThunder396]

I really hope the people who use "he was a healthy scratch" aren't the same people who lost their minds every time someone said that about Tatar and were angry people weren't excited about having him on the team. Because that would be very strange.

Tatar was never a healthy scratch on the Devils and he was far more useful to us than Sharangovich was. They had nearly identical production offensively but Tatar was miles ahead defensively, which is why he stayed in the lineup and Sharangovich didn't.

What are you even trying to say here? That how players perform on other teams is more important than how they perform on the Devils? If that's the case, you're going to love this guy named Tyler Toffoli. I heard he scored a lot of goals for Calgary last year.

 

[njdevils1982]

i need a drink to keep reading todays ramble on toffoli

 

[NJDfan86]

i need a drink to keep reading todays ramble on toffoli

What're we drinking?

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

FFS, not another Sharangovich/Toffoli debate.

 

[njdevils1982]

What're we drinking?

turpentine

...but really a vodka soda

 

[Billdo]

turpentine

...but really a vodka soda

A 1:1 edible is calling my name after dinner.

 

[NJDfan86]

turpentine

...but really a vodka soda

No one will argue with you on that! It's a classic

 

[JK3]

i need a drink to keep reading todays ramble on toffoli

I've got some Tequila going and now with some beers in between. Its gonna take the rest of the bottle to make that trade make sense.

 

[Cheddabombs]

Finally, let's bring back the food and drink talk in this thread

 

[TheUnseenHand]

The whole point of square peg / round hole is that the peg doesn't fit - there is simply no evidence that Toffoli didn't fit here.

The evidence was the eye test. Admittedly, that is subjective. It is my subjective opinion that a slow, unphysical goal scorer did not make a speedy, skilled, soft team better. Despite him objectively being a statistically good offensive player. I think there is truth to the odd roster composition we have being a bit of an issue. And I think he was part of that, hence the square peg.

All this said, I'm not anti Fitz. I can see the logic in almost every move he has made and on the whole think he has been a great GM. I'm not blasting him for the trade, and I'm not in any way blaming the season on Toff.

 

[JK3]

What was the logic in Fitz's thinking regarding Toffoli after this season? He had to know how much he would cost, did he think he was going to resign him for peanuts? It was a go for it move relegated to teams at the end of their window, basically a 60 game rental.