Confirmed with Link: Derrick Pouliot's here because reasons. Part 1. (#859)

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Brock Boeser Laser Show

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he missed the net worse than Edler (which is quite the accomplishment) last night on that feed from Boeser.

Don't see much offensive upside from the few games i've seen of him. Jimbo's approach to offensive defenseman is pretty much like Burke's approach to goaltending. We really need to luck into Dahlin so Benning stops chasing magical unicorns.
 

MS

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Mar 18, 2002
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yes, on first impression he looks way more ready to be a #6 guy than i expected, and way less likely to be more than that based just on his skating and especially his first steps. so he is more or less the exact opposite of what i was expecting.

interesting that the canucks have not called up a dman to back him up. i guess biega could step in but they have signalled he is going to get a decent look.

Yeah. To be fair, I also expected him to be bad on both counts so he's out-performing my expectations so far. Although it has to be noted that they're giving him 70% offensive zone starts, so the minutes he's looking 'solid defensively' in so far are REALLY soft.

He's not going to be a point producer in the NHL of any note or magically turn into some sort of PP QB. He's played 70 games in this league now and has put up points at ES at the same rate as Alex Biega, and while his AHL numbers are solid, they're hardly indicative of any sort of substantial talent at higher levels. If he could be a #5-6 guy who scores 25 points and plays on the 2nd unit PP, that would be about the biggest possible win from this player. He isn't going to be a top-4 guy who scores 40 or 50 points as a PP dynamo.
 

Nomobo

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Yeah. To be fair, I also expected him to be bad on both counts so he's out-performing my expectations so far. Although it has to be noted that they're giving him 70% offensive zone starts, so the minutes he's looking 'solid defensively' in so far are REALLY soft.

He's not going to be a point producer in the NHL of any note or magically turn into some sort of PP QB. He's played 70 games in this league now and has put up points at ES at the same rate as Alex Biega, and while his AHL numbers are solid, they're hardly indicative of any sort of substantial talent at higher levels. If he could be a #5-6 guy who scores 25 points and plays on the 2nd unit PP, that would be about the biggest possible win from this player. He isn't going to be a top-4 guy who scores 40 or 50 points as a PP dynamo.


25 points for a 24 year old #5-6 guy playing on the 2nd unit PP isn't too shabby and I think he's got more in him. You make it sound as if 40-50 point scoring dmen grow on trees. All he needs to do is only improve marginally and this trade will be a huge win for us.
 

krutovsdonut

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Yeah. To be fair, I also expected him to be bad on both counts so he's out-performing my expectations so far. Although it has to be noted that they're giving him 70% offensive zone starts, so the minutes he's looking 'solid defensively' in so far are REALLY soft.

He's not going to be a point producer in the NHL of any note or magically turn into some sort of PP QB. He's played 70 games in this league now and has put up points at ES at the same rate as Alex Biega, and while his AHL numbers are solid, they're hardly indicative of any sort of substantial talent at higher levels. If he could be a #5-6 guy who scores 25 points and plays on the 2nd unit PP, that would be about the biggest possible win from this player. He isn't going to be a top-4 guy who scores 40 or 50 points as a PP dynamo.

that's way more than i am prepared to project from two games. really i am only rating him longterm on skating. the only thing i can say longterm is that if his current skating is all you get that likely limits him to bottom pair. i have no feel yet for the rest of the skill set but it likely doesn't matter unless he can skate faster. he just can't play very much offence without the speed to get back.

i know that penguins fans have said his skating regressed the last two years. presumably that's related to his training and he has sacrificed flexibility for strength. if so, perhaps he will speed up as the season progresses if he plays regularly.
 

F A N

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If he could be a #5-6 guy who scores 25 points and plays on the 2nd unit PP, that would be about the biggest possible win from this player. He isn't going to be a top-4 guy who scores 40 or 50 points as a PP dynamo.

Your point expectations of players is so out of whack sometimes. Which Dman in the Canucks scored 25 points last season?
 

MS

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Your point expectations of players is so out of whack sometimes. Which Dman in the Canucks scored 25 points last season?

None, on the #29 offensive team in the NHL where a falling tide strands all boats. Most not-horrible teams have a couple guys in that range.

Change my statement to 20-25 points then. It's the same thing and you're just arguing for no reason.

Multiple people defending this trade have commented on his 'big talent' and potential to be a 'PP QB'. That isn't happening. All I'm saying is that if he can be a 3rd pairing guy who can play on the 2nd unit PP, that's as big of a win as you can expect.
 

Nomobo

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His athleticism reminds me of Kyle Wellwood.

Yeah but Wellwood
None, on the #29 offensive team in the NHL where a falling tide strands all boats. Most not-horrible teams have a couple guys in that range.

Change my statement to 20-25 points then. It's the same thing and you're just arguing for no reason.

Multiple people defending this trade have commented on his 'big talent' and potential to be a 'PP QB'. That isn't happening. All I'm saying is that if he can be a 3rd pairing guy who can play on the 2nd unit PP, that's as big of a win as you can expect.

Says the guy who **** all over Granlund, why don't you quit making snap judgements and wait and see?
 

MS

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Says the guy who **** all over Granlund, why don't you quit making snap judgements and wait and see?

This would be a pretty awful board if nobody ever passed an opinion or projection on anything and just said 'Wait and see!' about everything.

I've passed opinions on a lot of players here and I've usually been right, and certainly have been right at a rate several times better than the people actually evaluating talent for this team.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Right now Granlund looks better than I ever imagined he would, although he's still hardly a world-beater.

As for Pouliot, there's nothing in the last 3+ years to indicate that this is a player with the talent to QB an NHL PP, and nothing in his first couple games here does anything to change that.
 

ChilliBilly

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Aug 22, 2007
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This would be a pretty awful board if nobody ever passed an opinion or projection on anything and just said 'Wait and see!' about everything.

I've passed opinions on a lot of players here and I've usually been right, and certainly have been right at a rate several times better than the people actually evaluating talent for this team.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Right now Granlund looks better than I ever imagined he would, although he's still hardly a world-beater.

As for Pouliot, there's nothing in the last 3+ years to indicate that this is a player with the talent to QB an NHL PP, and nothing in his first couple games here does anything to change that.

However, he is at the point where some D men start to flourish. To quote Daymon Runyon, " The race isn't always to the swift, and the battle to the strong, but that is the way to bet." The odds are against him becoming a top pairing defenseman, but it is by no means decided.
 

Nomobo

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This would be a pretty awful board if nobody ever passed an opinion or projection on anything and just said 'Wait and see!' about everything.

I've passed opinions on a lot of players here and I've usually been right, and certainly have been right at a rate several times better than the people actually evaluating talent for this team.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Right now Granlund looks better than I ever imagined he would, although he's still hardly a world-beater.

As for Pouliot, there's nothing in the last 3+ years to indicate that this is a player with the talent to QB an NHL PP, and nothing in his first couple games here does anything to change that.

The problem is not you stating your opinion of a player, you do so over and over but you basically write off anyone that disagrees as ignorant or uninformed or the best of all a "casual fan". The boasting about how great of an evaluator of talent you are is a little much, it's easy to run a team from behind your keyboard.

Granlund may not be a world-beater and nobody claimed he would be but you jumped up and down claiming he was thrash when in fact he has been one of our top players and yes, I know it's early.

Pouliot like Granlund was given up on by his previous team and in order to make the trade a success all he has to do IMO is become a decent 4-5 defenceman not necessarily a PP QB although that's still a possibility.
 

Cquant

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May 14, 2015
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This would be a pretty awful board if nobody ever passed an opinion or projection on anything and just said 'Wait and see!' about everything.

I've passed opinions on a lot of players here and I've usually been right, and certainly have been right at a rate several times better than the people actually evaluating talent for this team.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Right now Granlund looks better than I ever imagined he would, although he's still hardly a world-beater.

As for Pouliot, there's nothing in the last 3+ years to indicate that this is a player with the talent to QB an NHL PP, and nothing in his first couple games here does anything to change that.

Confidence can be a big factor. One day you can't get anything done, the next everything clicks and you just get it done. While I agree that the "wait and see" approach isn't always satisfactory, there are times when it is right. Benning bet on Pouliot's pedigree, just as he did with Baertschi and Granlund before. The bet was a 4th round pick. Right now Pouliot is on pace to fill in for Edler, he's playing against easy competition, and gaining confidence. And so far he has played like a good 4th round pick, ergo he is a supporting player. But there is more to the risk. The risk is in whether he puts his stuff together and becomes a top 4 PP QB, or if he is just a puck moving bottom 4/ replacement level guy.

I suggest reading both of these articles:
https://canucksarmy.com/2017/10/07/...-like-derrick-pouliot-break-out-after-age-23/
http://www.vancourier.com/pass-it-t...pped-in-a-mystery-inside-an-enigma-1.23056060

They satisfied my curiosity. Basically, chances are going to be that you're right and Pouliot doesn't make it to the big league, but there is a, what seems like 20% chance, that he may become a regular player. This is amplified if you consider that in past years, he had the knack of getting injured early on which resulted with him getting sent down, well.... he will fit right in with us :D

The problem is not you stating your opinion of a player, you do so over and over but you basically write off anyone that disagrees as ignorant or uninformed or the best of all a "casual fan". The boasting about how great of an evaluator of talent you are is a little much, it's easy to run a team from behind your keyboard.

Granlund may not be a world-beater and nobody claimed he would be but you jumped up and down claiming he was thrash when in fact he has been one of our top players and yes, I know it's early.

Pouliot like Granlund was given up on by his previous team and in order to make the trade a success all he has to do IMO is become a decent 4-5 defenceman not necessarily a PP QB although that's still a possibility.

And I agree here, all he has to do is become a regular D-man in the top 6. He will get a good look on the powerplay eventually, if he runs with it, then that's awesome.
 

F A N

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None, on the #29 offensive team in the NHL where a falling tide strands all boats. Most not-horrible teams have a couple guys in that range.

Change my statement to 20-25 points then. It's the same thing and you're just arguing for no reason.

Multiple people defending this trade have commented on his 'big talent' and potential to be a 'PP QB'. That isn't happening. All I'm saying is that if he can be a 3rd pairing guy who can play on the 2nd unit PP, that's as big of a win as you can expect.

I'm not arguing for no reason. I am arguing that you are wrong. Since you change your statement, it suggests that you were wrong. You also think that Biega is a #5 Dman in the NHL so there's that.

If Pouliot is a serviceable regular NHL Dman that's a win period. Pouliot's point totals is likely to reflect on how good of an offensive team he plays on. He's more of a passer than a goal scorer.
 

Bleach Clean

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Aug 9, 2006
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I'm not arguing for no reason. I am arguing that you are wrong. Since you change your statement, it suggests that you were wrong. You also think that Biega is a #5 Dman in the NHL so there's that.

If Pouliot is a serviceable regular NHL Dman that's a win period. Pouliot's point totals is likely to reflect on how good of an offensive team he plays on. He's more of a passer than a goal scorer.


I disagree with the statement in bold. A "serviceable regular" can be had on a bottom-pairing salary, or be claimed off of waivers. Wiercioch can be a serviceable regular. He can be used as a #6 Dman. Biega can be argued to be a serviceable regular. If that's the absolute height Pouliot is able to achieve, then that trade is most definitely not a "win". It would be the equivalent of paying a 4th round pick for a bottom pairing Dman at the deadline -- and few tend to think of those trades as good value deals.

On 20 points vs 25 points: You are effectively arguing for no reason. A 5 point variance over an 82 game sample is more attributable to luck than innate ability. It's not a hill to die on.


The problem is not you stating your opinion of a player, you do so over and over but you basically write off anyone that disagrees as ignorant or uninformed or the best of all a "casual fan". The boasting about how great of an evaluator of talent you are is a little much, it's easy to run a team from behind your keyboard.

Granlund may not be a world-beater and nobody claimed he would be but you jumped up and down claiming he was thrash when in fact he has been one of our top players and yes, I know it's early.

Pouliot like Granlund was given up on by his previous team and in order to make the trade a success all he has to do IMO is become a decent 4-5 defenceman not necessarily a PP QB although that's still a possibility.


If it's easy to run a team behind a keyboard, then Benning needs to learn how to use a computer.

I would say that in some ways it's actually harder to armchair QB this team as a fan than it is for Benning to manage it. Think about it: An incorrect statement or judgement here is picked apart and derided over and over again for years. If Benning makes a mistake, he talks about it once or twice and then hides in his office. Who in the media is really holding this man's feet to the fire?

Fans here also make projections based on more limited information than Benning likely has access to, so when they end up being right and Benning is wrong it's actually more impressive. If they can keep that frequency higher than Benning over a span of years, it really puts Benning's aptitude into perspective. It also isolates the posters ability to assess moves.

MS has maintained a high 'hit' frequency over years of putting his opinion out there. He's been wrong too (many of the posters here who have shared their opinion over years have been wrong, including myself). I've disagreed with his take on occasion. Even so, his ratio of being right vs being wrong is only bested by 2 other posters here IMO. That's very difficult to do when every one of his posts have to face the gauntlet every time out. That's why a default "wait and see" approach just seems to pale by comparison. It signals disagreement without knowledge, or creates a safe zone where opinions are not ventured or critiqued. It also highlights why what MS does here is rare.

As for Pouliot: I actually agree with your evaluation (somewhat). He has to be a 4/5 (more #4 Dman) for this trade can be considered a success. #4 Dmen still garner mid-level salaries and are not readily available. If he can achieve that height, then it's job well done. I think if he can buoy his point totals via PPPs, he has a chance to be considered a #4 even if his ES shot differentials and GA numbers are at a bottom pairing level. Let's wait and see...
 
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terrible dee

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Poo should be feeling flushed with success after a solid performance like tonight.

Green should guard against putting too much in his bowl too soon though.

I feel like he's pushing too hard

I'll give him credit, he's gritting his teeth and trying to grind out some tangible production, something he can point to and say "There, I did that"

But he's he still needs training on when and where to do things, I see him trying to blast one out when he isn't even in position for a dump-in.

I applaud his effort, but the game ends up a real mess when he does that, luckily he's usually partnered with a Dman who can clean up his messes, although for that player I'm sure the job stinks. Still, at some point, Green needs to point out these mistakes and really rub his nose in it.

He needs to learn to take care of business in his own zone, I know a lot of people don't want to finger him and I agree a scratching would be a very bad idea at this point, the kids been through so much that the finger that would be wagging hardest under his nose would be his own,
 

terrible dee

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I'm feeling really relieved that Poo has come out with a couple smooth solid outings.

I had a feeling we might be in for a rocky start, but he has slid right into the lineup and made a bit of a splash.

He's got to clean up his game down low and cover the dirty areas, but his zone exits aren't clogging the breakout at least.
 

Pip

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I'm not arguing for no reason. I am arguing that you are wrong. Since you change your statement, it suggests that you were wrong. You also think that Biega is a #5 Dman in the NHL so there's that.

If Pouliot is a serviceable regular NHL Dman that's a win period. Pouliot's point totals is likely to reflect on how good of an offensive team he plays on. He's more of a passer than a goal scorer.
Pouliot being serviceable doesn’t make this a win. You can get serviceable defenseman for free off of waivers.
 
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Nomobo

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I disagree with the statement in bold. A "serviceable regular" can be had on a bottom-pairing salary, or be claimed off of waivers. Wiercioch can be a serviceable regular. He can be used as a #6 Dman. Biega can be argued to be a serviceable regular. If that's the absolute height Pouliot is able to achieve, then that trade is most definitely not a "win". It would be the equivalent of paying a 4th round pick for a bottom pairing Dman at the deadline -- and few tend to think of those trades as good value deals.

On 20 points vs 25 points: You are effectively arguing for no reason. A 5 point variance over an 82 game sample is more attributable to luck than innate ability. It's not a hill to die on.





If it's easy to run a team behind a keyboard, then Benning needs to learn how to use a computer.

I would say that in some ways it's actually harder to armchair QB this team as a fan than it is for Benning to manage it. Think about it: An incorrect statement or judgement here is picked apart and derided over and over again for years. If Benning makes a mistake, he talks about it once or twice and then hides in his office. Who in the media is really holding this man's feet to the fire?



Fans here also make projections based on more limited information than Benning likely has access to, so when they end up being right and Benning is wrong it's actually more impressive. If they can keep that frequency higher than Benning over a span of years, it really puts Benning's aptitude into perspective. It also isolates the posters ability to assess moves.

MS has maintained a high 'hit' frequency over years of putting his opinion out there. He's been wrong too (many of the posters here who have shared their opinion over years have been wrong, including myself). I've disagreed with his take on occasion. Even so, his ratio of being right vs being wrong is only bested by 2 other posters here IMO. That's very difficult to do when every one of his posts have to face the gauntlet every time out. That's why a default "wait and see" approach just seems to pale by comparison. It signals disagreement without knowledge, or creates a safe zone where opinions are not ventured or critiqued. It also highlights why what MS does here is rare.

As for Pouliot: I actually agree with your evaluation (somewhat). He has to be a 4/5 (more #4 Dman) for this trade can be considered a success. #4 Dmen still garner mid-level salaries and are not readily available. If he can achieve that height, then it's job well done. I think if he can buoy his point totals via PPPs, he has a chance to be considered a #4 even if his ES shot differentials and GA numbers are at a bottom pairing level. Let's wait and see...

Really? Harder to armchair QB? You're likening the pressures of running a multimillion dollar business to critiquing from a hockey message board? Derided over and over again for years? You're being melodramatic here, you can basically spew any nonsense you want on here and if repeated often enough, before long you'll get a following that regards it as fact. There's no pressure at all except as a figment of your imagination. Benning's boss holds his feet to the fire. Have you and others here taken it upon yourself to hold Benning accountable because the press isn't doing it's job? Very noble.


Of course fans are limited in the information they have, that's why a lot of posts are nothing but speculation at best and bs at worst.

Not going to get into arguing about MS and his high 'hit' frequency over the years.

Glad that we agree on Pouliot. I like what I've seen so far.
 

krutovsdonut

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Sep 25, 2016
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if we get a decent 23 year old bottom pair guy for a 4th that is more or less a push, but not a win. he needs to do more than that for it to be a win.

and it is way to soon to say he is a decent bottom pair guy. at this point we are just trying to assess his ceiling. his floor is going to be wide open for a while.
 
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MS

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Mar 18, 2002
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The problem is not you stating your opinion of a player, you do so over and over but you basically write off anyone that disagrees as ignorant or uninformed or the best of all a "casual fan". The boasting about how great of an evaluator of talent you are is a little much, it's easy to run a team from behind your keyboard.

Granlund may not be a world-beater and nobody claimed he would be but you jumped up and down claiming he was thrash when in fact he has been one of our top players and yes, I know it's early.

Pouliot like Granlund was given up on by his previous team and in order to make the trade a success all he has to do IMO is become a decent 4-5 defenceman not necessarily a PP QB although that's still a possibility.

I'm not 'boasting' and never bring up my track record here except when someone says 'yeah, you don't know what you're talking about because you were wrong on Granlund!' or something like that. And when someone does, yeah, I'm going to defend myself.

And I've stated repeatedly that I'll be wrong in some cases. Anything I ever say or project is a 'most likely outcome' and if you are consistently operating in terms of most likely outcomes, you'll be doing OK. But sometimes less-likely outcomes come through and a player develops differently than could reasonably be expected. If I say 'these 6 moves are bad' I'm fully aware that one of them will probably turn out unexpectedly good just because that's the way chance and odds work - I just don't know which one. And maybe Pouliot will be a unicorn! But probably not.

I'm not arguing for no reason. I am arguing that you are wrong. Since you change your statement, it suggests that you were wrong. You also think that Biega is a #5 Dman in the NHL so there's that.

If Pouliot is a serviceable regular NHL Dman that's a win period. Pouliot's point totals is likely to reflect on how good of an offensive team he plays on. He's more of a passer than a goal scorer.

You're pointlessly arguing semantics about a +/- 5 points projection because you don't like me.

I was never even arguing whether it's a win if Pouliot was a serviceable NHL player (which I would disagree with, though). What I was saying was that this player was exceedingly unlikely to be a high-upside home run PP QB that some people were claiming was a reasonable possibility, and that the best possible reasonable outcome was for him to become a #5-6 type who can help on the 2nd unit PP.

Pouliot being serviceable doesn’t make this a win. You can get serviceable defenseman for free off of waivers.

No kidding. If Pouliot ends up being another Yannick Weber or Patrick Wiercioch - who have both had pretty long NHL careers - this is hardly a win and still a waste of a 4th round pick.
 

denkiteki

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Jun 29, 2010
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if we get a decent 23 year old bottom pair guy for a 4th that is more or less a push, but not a win. he needs to do more than that for it to be a win.

and it is way to soon to say he is a decent bottom pair guy. at this point we are just trying to assess his ceiling. his floor is going to be wide open for a while.

It also depends on how long he stays here. If its 1 year then yeah its a push. If he stays for a few years then it becomes a better looking trade/win. Of course that also depends on the type of money he gets (i.e. if he gets Sbisa money, change that win to a lost).
 

Addison Rae

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Jun 2, 2009
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Soft ~25 point poor defensive #5/6 defenders are a dime a dozen in this league. Give a guy like Adam Clendenning those minutes and some power play time and he's pretty much exactly that. Calling trading for at best a Patrick Wiercioch, Adam Clendenning type player a "massive win" is laughable. Poulot is waiver wire junk, and was a complete waste of a draft pick.
 
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Uhmkay

Tryamkin = New Chara
Dec 11, 2006
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I'm willing to give Pouliot a chance before I write this deal off. I'm not a huge Benning fan, but many people have been wrong on their initial assessments of past deals that he's done.

Benning has turned complete crap into Baertschi and Granlund. I'll give this deal a chance.
 

VanJack

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Jul 11, 2014
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I really figured that tandem of Stecher and Pouliot would be ground down in their own zone....but so far their puck movement has kept them out of trouble.....but still think they could be vulnerable to a heavy, down-low forechecking team....but so far, so good.
 

CanaFan

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Feb 19, 2010
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I'm willing to give Pouliot a chance before I write this deal off. I'm not a huge Benning fan, but many people have been wrong on their initial assessments of past deals that he's done.

Benning has turned complete crap into Baertschi and Granlund. I'll give this deal a chance.

A 2nd round pick is not “complete crap”. Tbh it’s debatable if you could get a 2nd back for Baertschi today and he’s actually improved from the time of the trade.
 
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