Player Discussion Derrick Pouliot, Pt. II: Will not be qualified (again)

TheWanderer

Registered User
Nov 15, 2013
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The irony of this is mind-blowing. People were "wrong" to call Granlund a 20-goal player when he put up over a 20-goal pace in 70 games last season, and now the "right" perspective is to judge him as a replacement-level player because of a sample much less than half that size.

Granny has had a slow start to the season, but while last year every shot for him was going in, this year he's getting incredible chances and they're simply not going in. His 2-way play has been there enough to make him still a useful player thus far, in my opinion. Personally, I still have a lot of belief in this player and think he'll start potting some more goals sooner than later. Either way, he's objectively a much better player than Shinkaruk....

Yeah no shit, hey? 70 game sample size of a 20 goal scorer vs. 1 month of worse production = bad player because "what have you done for me lately?" Too much black and white around here, no objectivity.
 

TheWanderer

Registered User
Nov 15, 2013
4,959
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I like this post.
He's a Canuck.
I'm happy for him.
The cost was controlled.
That's all that matters.
Hey, I appreciate the compliment :)

...but if you like the post, why didn't you "like" the post? You realize how much that upsets me, don't you?

EDIT: thank you :]
 

WTG

December 5th
Jan 11, 2015
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AHL data isn't always a great indicator. Otherwise, from a production standpoint, the Clendenning trade was justified. Besides, based on stat watching, Pouliot looked good in the AHL for offensive production.
Tiny bit of NHL data spread over multiple seasons. Pouliot never got a chance to find his groove and build his game in the NHL.

Not talking about point totals, I'm talking about transition metrics, heat maps, and your basic Corsi/Fenwick shebang.
 

krutovsdonut

eeyore
Sep 25, 2016
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So we are all acknowledging that this is not a rebuild? I just want this to be clear so that the Pouliot trade, and trades like it, are judged through that lens. If that's the understanding, I'm fine with it. I just don't think some fans would agree with you that this is the understanding.


nope. it's a rebuild. just not one dependent completely on draft picks. there is no retool. all the old stuff is gone or going.
 

alternate

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RoE you are just arguing meaningless semantics. It makes absolutely no difference if you call things a rebuild, a retool, a reboot, or a redo it all amounts to the same thing: transitioning from one core to another.

Right now our next core looks like it will include:

Boeser
Horvat
Petterson
Gaudette
Virtanen
Lind
Juolevi
Hutton
Stetcher
Pouliot
Tryamkin
Demko

Some of these guys won't make it, there's names I've left off, and we will continue to add through the draft, trades and UFAs.

Almost everyone on that list has been added by Benning and co. Granted teams like Edmonton, Colorado and Florida have had rebuilds that looked to be going good before falling flat, and that could happen here.

But using some arbitrary term you never bother to define to somehow denigrate the "new core" Benning has assembled is just nonsense. If Benning came out and said "I'm retooling" you'd have a different take on the Pouliot trade? But how the player ends up developing shouldn't have any relevance when evaluating the deal? I mean, c'mon.
 

Bleach Clean

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Aug 9, 2006
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nope. it's a rebuild. just not one dependent completely on draft picks. there is no retool. all the old stuff is gone or going.


So it's a neo-rebuild then? A rebuild that has no precedent. Benning is actually forging the first rebuild of its kind before our very eyes?
 

Bleach Clean

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Aug 9, 2006
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RoE you are just arguing meaningless semantics. It makes absolutely no difference if you call things a rebuild, a retool, a reboot, or a redo it all amounts to the same thing: transitioning from one core to another.


It absolutely makes a difference what the GM terms as his long-term strategy. Absolutely. I'm surprised that you think it doesn't. It's the backdrop by which all of his moves are judged. It's the context. What do you think the media has been hounding them about from the initial day to when Linden fumbled out his answer? Why do you think he's been so reluctant to answer? It's because messaging matters when selling a product.

If Linden messages a rebuild, fans expect moves akin to a rebuild. Novel concept, I know, but they knew they were never going to follow that path. Hence, the hesitation. I mean it's plain to see/hear. They've been terrible in their messaging and objective statements. The twitter account of "Lindenning" is having a field day over exactly this aspect of their tenure.


Right now our next core looks like it will include:

Boeser
Horvat
Petterson
Gaudette
Virtanen
Lind
Juolevi
Hutton
Stetcher
Pouliot
Tryamkin
Demko

Some of these guys won't make it, there's names I've left off, and we will continue to add through the draft, trades and UFAs.

Almost everyone on that list has been added by Benning and co. Granted teams like Edmonton, Colorado and Florida have had rebuilds that looked to be going good before falling flat, and that could happen here.

But using some arbitrary term you never bother to define to somehow denigrate the "new core" Benning has assembled is just nonsense. If Benning came out and said "I'm retooling" you'd have a different take on the Pouliot trade? But how the player ends up developing shouldn't have any relevance when evaluating the deal? I mean, c'mon.


"Term I never bother to define"? Do you need a rebuild explained?

Anyway, Benning's actions have belied his mission statement. He has operated in an atypical fashion for his entire tenure. So yes, I think that's significant in how we view his moves. You seem to be of the opinion that as long as he assembles a core group, it doesn't matter. My opinion differs in that I want him to assemble the strongest core group possible and be flush with trade assets -- not have him bleed assets at every turn, taking on undue risk. We judge GM efficiency and direction very differently, it seems.
 
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Frankie Blueberries

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Jan 27, 2016
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RoE you are just arguing meaningless semantics. It makes absolutely no difference if you call things a rebuild, a retool, a reboot, or a redo it all amounts to the same thing: transitioning from one core to another.

Right now our next core looks like it will include:

Boeser
Horvat
Petterson
Gaudette
Virtanen
Lind
Juolevi
Hutton
Stetcher
Pouliot
Tryamkin
Demko

Some of these guys won't make it, there's names I've left off, and we will continue to add through the draft, trades and UFAs.

Almost everyone on that list has been added by Benning and co. Granted teams like Edmonton, Colorado and Florida have had rebuilds that looked to be going good before falling flat, and that could happen here.

But using some arbitrary term you never bother to define to somehow denigrate the "new core" Benning has assembled is just nonsense. If Benning came out and said "I'm retooling" you'd have a different take on the Pouliot trade? But how the player ends up developing shouldn't have any relevance when evaluating the deal? I mean, c'mon.

Goldobin and Gadjovich are sad with your list.
 
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VanJack

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Jul 11, 2014
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Terrible title. How about "best offensive defenceman since Ehrhoff"?
Yes, ever since Erhoff left town the Canucks have lacked a true pp QB....not saying Pouliot is that guy, yet.....but at the rate he's improving you have to begin to wonder if the Canucks do have another Erhoff on their hands, who arrived similarly in a trade with the Sharks in a contract salary dump....sometimes manna just falls from heaven....And Pouliot just keeps on getting better every game...so who knows where the ceiling is?
 

vancityluongo

curse of the strombino
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Jul 8, 2006
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Props to whoever has stuck around in the organization since the Canucks were first rumoured to be really interested in Pouliot back in 2013. Give them a promotion.
 

skyo

Benning Squad
Sep 22, 2013
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No clue how to reply on an old post in the new board... sure it probably isn't much harder.

Anyway, I have already stated, if my assessment of this player ends up being wrong, sure it could be a good trade. However with the evidence we have up to this point it is not. Yes we should be able to get a 3rd pairing dman for cheap/free. Much like we have in the past.

Re:thought exercise.

Sure if they had a magical box I could totally agree. However as far as we know he doesn't have said box, and they used the same things they have used in the past. Therefore I can pretty safely say it was the same process as the past trades.
[MOD] REPLY of the year can reply vs pro's vs the con's.
 
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skyo

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Sep 22, 2013
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I think you need to start acknowledging Pouliot's role is a bit beyond what you are stating. He plays on the powerplay, leads the defence in scoring, plays 22 minutes a game and when Gubrandson comes back in the line up so they don't kill his trade value, it will not be Pouliot sitting, it will be Stecher, Hutton or Del Zotto. His coach doesnt consider him a 3rd paring defenceman. Neither should you.
Should give us 50 pts np.
 

alternate

Win the week!
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It absolutely makes a difference what the GM terms as his long-term strategy. Absolutely. I'm surprised that you think it doesn't. It's the backdrop by which all of his moves are judged. It's the context. What do you think the media has been hounding them about from the initial day to when Linden fumbled out his answer? Why do you think he's been so reluctant to answer? It's because messaging matters when selling a product.

If Linden messages a rebuild, fans expect moves akin to a rebuild. Novel concept, I know, but they knew they were never going to follow that path. Hence, the hesitation. I mean it's plain to see/hear. They've been terrible in their messaging and objective statements. The twitter account of "Lindenning" is having a field day over exactly this aspect of their tenure.

Why is the PR more important than the results? Who gives a shit what the management people say or don't say. Whether you call it a rebuild a retool a whatever it's all just different means to an end. The end being transitioning to a new core.

That's what management should be judged on. You're either happy with the list+ I posted above, or your not. Whether you say we got *here* through rebuilding or retooling is nothing but irrelevant semantics.




"Term I never bother to define"? Do you need a rebuild explained?

Well, I know how I define a rebuild, but it's a bit of a fluid concept for me. I don't really attach many firm rules to what I call a rebuild vs a retool. A couple differences, sure, but considering those terms literally change your worldview, I figure you have a very concrete definition of what each includes and excludes.

Anyway, Benning's actions have belied his mission statement. He has operated in an atypical fashion for his entire tenure. So yes, I think that's significant in how we view his moves. You seem to be of the opinion that as long as he assembles a core group, it doesn't matter. My opinion differs in that I want him to assemble the strongest core group possible and be flush with trade assets -- not have him bleed assets at every turn, taking on undue risk. We judge GM efficiency and direction very differently, it seems.

Atypical to what? He's transitioning cores, there's no typical. Every re-core is a unique series of breaks and opportunities. Locking yourself into a box that costs you opportunities to improve your organisation is a very poor management strategy. Ultimately, assembling a core IS all that matters; how you get there is just what happened on the way.

If this core Benning has more or less assembled is good enough to challenge for the Cup in their prime, then he's done a good job. If it isn't, then he hasn't. Whether he says he's rebuilding or retooling has nothing to do with the ultimate evaluation of his core. And trades like Pouliot shouldn't be judged through the lens of some unexamined concept abstractly defined with mathematical certainty.
 

absolute garbage

Registered User
Jan 22, 2006
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Oh look, a bunch of [MOD] clinging on to a marginal move trying to justify the disaster artist in charge of this team.

Oddly familiar. What happened to that last year's thread anyway?
 
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sandwichbird2023

Registered User
Aug 4, 2004
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Should give us 50 pts np.
50 pts gets him into top 10 scoring from defensemen in the league last season, more than guys like Josi, doughty, pietrangelo, no problem eh? I hope you are right but that seems extremely optimistic after 20 games...
 

Bleach Clean

Registered User
Aug 9, 2006
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Why is the PR more important than the results? Who gives a **** what the management people say or don't say. Whether you call it a rebuild a retool a whatever it's all just different means to an end. The end being transitioning to a new core.

That's what management should be judged on. You're either happy with the list+ I posted above, or your not. Whether you say we got *here* through rebuilding or retooling is nothing but irrelevant semantics.


It's not "PR", it's direction. It's the objective goal. To use your terminology: It describes the given end, and it implies the means to that end. It's the plan. The difference in our perception is that you think the end would be no different given any means, regardless of the goal set. I think the end would have been noticeably different given a better goal and better means to that goal/end. You see that as the best list possible. I see that list as a combination of bled assets and the devaluation of the draft. It could be much better than it is...

It's not semantics. Do not assume the end would have been the same given a different process from a better manager.


Well, I know how I define a rebuild, but it's a bit of a fluid concept for me. I don't really attach many firm rules to what I call a rebuild vs a retool. A couple differences, sure, but considering those terms literally change your worldview, I figure you have a very concrete definition of what each includes and excludes.


A rebuild is not a fluid concept. There is a common understanding of what it entails with regards to the NHL. A "rebuild" as it is used in the NHL vernacular signifies a primary focus to the future. In almost all cases, this means a priority placed upon draft picks. Almost at the expense of near everything else. It's because draft picks provide the best probability of the best future assets (you have admitted this already). Therefore, the acquisition of said picks becomes paramount. These are the assets that best serve the intended goal. Makes sense right?

The present is also devalued by comparison. Veterans are liquidated into future assets and cap space is leveraged for more future assets. Those are the basic tenets of a rebuild.

This is the common understanding of a rebuild as it applies to the NHL. If you want to contend that this is not the common understanding of a rebuild, make your case -- as it references NHL practice and precedent. It does not matter much to me what your particular definition is. That is irrelevant. Please contest the definition using NHL examples as counter-points.


Atypical to what? He's transitioning cores, there's no typical. Every re-core is a unique series of breaks and opportunities. Locking yourself into a box that costs you opportunities to improve your organisation is a very poor management strategy. Ultimately, assembling a core IS all that matters; how you get there is just what happened on the way.

If this core Benning has more or less assembled is good enough to challenge for the Cup in their prime, then he's done a good job. If it isn't, then he hasn't. Whether he says he's rebuilding or retooling has nothing to do with the ultimate evaluation of his core. And trades like Pouliot shouldn't be judged through the lens of some unexamined concept abstractly defined with mathematical certainty.


There is a "typical" in rebuilding. It's a primary focus on picks and the development of those picks. This is not to the exclusion of all other opportunities either. You're making a mistake by categorizing my position as such. A primary focus =/= only focus. A GM can make atypical moves to bolster his rebuild. However, when the atypical becomes the primary focus, as it has with Benning, then we cannot categorize that as a rebuild. It's something else.

Your last paragraph is surprising. Poor managers stumble onto good core players all the time. How? By having poor teams. If a manager is so woefully inept at his job that his teams are garbage, he drafts high. That puts him in a great place to get core players right? His failure is rewarded by a higher pick, which then generally leads to the opportunity to accrue prime assets. Which is funny to me because Benning's mandate was to have his team's compete -- only to have his teams crater, which then leads to the opportunity to get Pettersson, which then gets touted as the new core. He gets lauded for it. For failure. The last guy by contrast fails, and is fired. Do you think they would have called Gillis the "great rebuilder" if all he did was have his teams fail only to draft high and produce the new core? No. So why is this the case for Benning?

You are confusing happenstance with method and intention.
 
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Dissonance Jr

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Oct 6, 2017
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In general it's better for a rebuilding team to stockpile picks and lean more heavily on the waiver wire and free agency to grab marginal players and long-shot bets.

If a GM sees an intriguing young cast-off he really likes and can grab for a mid-round pick or two, that can be okay. The problem has been that our scouting, particularly for young defenders, has been mostly horrific under Benning — Sbisa, Clendening, Pedan, Bartkowski, Larsen, Gudbranson. Which has just meant a bunch of wasted picks and assets when we do these types of deals. And which explains why a lot of people were (fairly) skeptical about this trade to begin with.
 
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Diamonddog01

Diamond in the rough
Jul 18, 2007
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Ronning on Empty has convinced me. I don't know what he's convinced me of, maybe that we shouldn't have traded for Pouliot, but whatever it is, I feel a lot smarter now.

I feel as though I've lost a few IQ points reading this thread, as entertaining as pages and pages of logically inconsistent, pseudo-intellectual gibberish is.
 
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Bleach Clean

Registered User
Aug 9, 2006
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Not sure I agree with the complaints about the process behind this trade. Or at least I've changed my mind somewhat.

In general, sure, it's better for a rebuilding team to stockpile picks and lean more heavily on the waiver wire and free agency to grab marginal players and long-shot bets.

But if a GM sees an intriguing young cast-off he really likes and can grab for a mid-round pick or two, that's a fine idea. Even if it's just to ensure that he gets first crack at a player likely to be on waivers. Even if he's rebuilding and needs picks.

The bigger problem by far has been that our scouting, particularly for young defenders, has been mostly horrific under Benning — Sbisa, Clendening, Pedan, Bartkowski, Larsen, Gudbranson. Which has just meant a bunch of wasted picks and assets when we do these types of deals. And which explains why a lot of people were (fairly) skeptical about this trade to begin with.

Fortunately, Pouliot is shaping up to be a nice exception to that trend — he's looked good of late, has added an element we sorely needed to the back-end with his excellent breakout passes, and if he keeps up his recent play, he's easily worth a 4th round pick. Whether or not he might've been available on waivers.

The real question is whether this was just a blind-squirrel-found-a-nut situation or an indication that this management team is getting better at scouting overlooked young players. Would certainly hope for the latter, but I'm skeptical.


No one is arguing that an exception to the rule cannot take place. It's fine for a rebuilding GM to deal a mid-pick for a cast-off -- in select cases. The cases have not been 'select', however. This method has been prevalent during the Jim Benning era. It's a mode. Therefore, this trade has to be weighted against the entire process of dealing multiple picks for fringe assets. In total, and in isolation. And finally, judged against the backdrop/guise of a rebuild.

In isolation, it's looking good so far. In total, I would say the percentage of successes with this type of move have been relatively low. Against the guise of a rebuild, it's not something teams usually do. If the people that only look at things in isolation, and only look at the result, can acknowledge that these are other valid forms by which to perceive this deal, this would not be an argument... but it is, because they can't/won't. Unsurprisingly, we don't hear much about Benning's failed attempts -- when the methodology was exactly the same as this deal...
 
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