Defense

[triggrman]

I'm going to start a full thread on this.

Defensemen is what I watch the most, in all zones. I posted my assesment in another thread but I'm going to move it to here.

****PLEASE NO ADVANCED STATS DEBATES HERE, USE THEM IF YOU WANT BUT THIS IS TO DISCUSS THE PLAYERS NOT THE VALIDITY OF ADVANCED STATS****

Here's where I am with our top 4.

Josi, fast, has the best lateral movement when he has the puck, really good shot just doesn't get it off enough. Good one on one, decent gaps, weak along the boards, when pressured is prone to mistakes (most are). Defensively he's average overall. He's the speedster on the team and you want him to have the puck coming through the zone.

Ekholm, big guy that can move, has a long reach and is able to use it well. Has a good shot, not great but good, uses that long reach to score. Overall good offensively, when the play is there he can perform. Defensively, strong on the boards, average gaps, IQ is average at best in both ends and this is his biggest weakness. He's the most physical of our top 4

Ellis - Highest IQ of all the defensemen. Has great hands, balance and an above average shot. However, he's slow and that hurts him in a lot of areas but manly his gaps defensively are terrible, sometimes it seems he backs into the goalie. He's also small, which can hurt him at times but nothing like what his speed does to him. I will say, while he is slow speed wise he's still a good skater, his balance is good. He's the smartest of the top 4.

Subban. Well, putting aside my hate we traded Weber is hard... Really good gaps, good positioning period offensively and defensively. Has a knack for making that impossible play. Has a great one timer when his head is up. Seems to rush the play at times and can be baited to make a bad play offensively or to take a bad penalty. Is our most dynamic player and best defensively for the most part.

Now, I've never been a big Ellis fan but lately, he and Josi look like they're dominant at times. The way they hold the blueline and keep the puck in the offensive zone is incredible at times. The seem to see the ice so well, it really looks like a powerplay. I know last night NJD isn't a good team but they did it at times against Philly and Minnesota too.

I would have never thought that pairing would be so dominant and they are especially with the puck.

Click to read more...

 

[twig]

They are a better team without suban.

Evidence.....last two games.

 

[NSH615]

They are a better team without suban.

Evidence.....last two games.

3 games. Only 3 goals allowed outside of the shootout in last 3 without him.

 

[Pred303]

good thread idea trig. i agree with your analysis, with a couple of additional thoughts.

..i think subban sees the ice a little better than josi, but josi's puck carrying ability can break down the defense much better than subban's puck carrying ability can.
..ellis speed issue is in his backward skating, which of course is important in a defenseman. up ice he is noticbaly faster.
..i agree in general ellis is probably the highest hockey IQ d-guy we have. and he probably has the most accurate shot.
..josi is probably the best we have at stickchecking defensively. subban appears really solid here too.
..i do agree with the idea that our two most phsycial guys are ekholm and subban and yet we still pair them together.
..but i also admit that josi and ellis appear to be starting to really gel together, as you say, both without and with the puck.
..all in all, i do believe subban might have more natural all around 'talent' than josi, but at the same time i believe josi is the more valuable defenseman to us because of his better ability to carry the puck with speed and penatrate and break down a defense.
..cann't explain how ekholm has looked so much better paired than irwin these three games than he has with subban for 28.

 

[David Singleton]

Trig, since you started a new thread based upon the post I responded to, I'll move my response. (Great thread btw)

trig- I'd add a couple things to Subban: He's the Predators 2nd most physical defender to Ekholm, and the difference isn't large. Subban, while being incredibly dynamic with his hands, is not a great skater, nor very fast. You agree?



I'm still a little surprised that Laviolette hasn't split the two better, and most physical, defenders (Ekholm and Subban) given the issues for the Predators have mostly been defensive lapses.

 

[David Singleton]

They are a better team without suban.

Evidence.....last two games.

I feel that's a bit simplistic and doesn't consider the types of teams being played over those two games or consider the possibility that current pairings just aren't ideal at the moment.

 

[NSH615]

good thread idea trig. i agree with your analysis, with a couple of additional thoughts.

..i think subban sees the ice a little better than josi, but josi's puck carrying ability can break down the defense much better than subban's puck carrying ability can.
..ellis speed issue is in his backward skating, which of course is important in a defenseman. up ice he is noticbaly faster.
..i agree in general ellis is probably the highest hockey IQ d-guy we have. and he probably has the most accurate shot.
..josi is probably the best we have at stickchecking defensively. subban appears really solid here too.
..i do agree with the idea that our two most phsycial guys are ekholm and subban and yet we still pair them together.
..but i also admit that josi and ellis appear to be starting to really gel together, as you say, both without and with the puck.
..all in all, i do believe subban might have more natural all around 'talent' than josi, but at the same time i believe josi is the more valuable defenseman to us because of his better ability to carry the puck with speed and penatrate and break down a defense.
..cann't explain how ekholm has looked so much better paired than irwin these three games than he has with subban for 28.

Didn't we just last year call Ekholm, a poor man's Josi? I mean last year they played similar styles. Maybe this is the reason that Ekholm has struggled with Subban since both are similar in that regard, much like Josi/Subban are which caused the switch to begin with. Irwin has looked pretty good in pretty much any pairing he has been on. With Weber (early in the season), Josi (when Ellis was out), and now with Ekholm.

 

[Pred303]

subban has penatrated with the puck so much less than i expected that ekholm really shouldn't have felt tied to the blueline (like i feel he has felt). now these past three games it seems he's attempted to take the puck in deeper more than he has in all the games prior. part of the reason feels like ekholm has been caught sort of waiting for subban to do something in the offensive end honestly.

 

[DE3Always]

3 games. Only 3 goals allowed outside of the shootout in last 3 without him.

Subban pinches in too much and then he is trapped with the forwards having to cover for him. I think they should expose Subban to the Vegas draft and hope they pick him. Defense is much better without him and the locker room can settle down and get back to business. They also dump a big salary. Irwin has been solid on defense since his call up.

 

[wadesworld]

Subban pinches in too much and then he is trapped with the forwards having to cover for him. I think they should expose Subban to the Vegas draft and hope they pick him. Defense is much better without him and the locker room can settle down and get back to business. They also dump a big salary. Irwin has been solid on defense since his call up.

There's no response to this other than "wow."

 

[PredsV82]

Subban pinches in too much and then he is trapped with the forwards having to cover for him. I think they should expose Subban to the Vegas draft and hope they pick him. Defense is much better without him and the locker room can settle down and get back to business. They also dump a big salary. Irwin has been solid on defense since his call up.

 

[Montross]

You should rename this thread "All the reasons Subban is horrible and terrible and they should trade/expose/release/waive him since he is the Predators' worst player ever and I miss Shea and who cares about his 17 points and his nice advanced stats I DO NOT LIKE HIM!!!!1111!!"

 

[SeventyOneTN]

Subban pinches in too much and then he is trapped with the forwards having to cover for him. I think they should expose Subban to the Vegas draft and hope they pick him. Defense is much better without him and the locker room can settle down and get back to business. They also dump a big salary. Irwin has been solid on defense since his call up.

Lovely first post, I'm thinking no. He has been pretty good - good for this team and when it all gels the defensive core of this team will be special.

 

[triggrman]

Didn't we just last year call Ekholm, a poor man's Josi? I mean last year they played similar styles. Maybe this is the reason that Ekholm has struggled with Subban since both are similar in that regard, much like Josi/Subban are which caused the switch to begin with. Irwin has looked pretty good in pretty much any pairing he has been on. With Weber (early in the season), Josi (when Ellis was out), and now with Ekholm.

I personally thought Irwin struggled when put with Josi. His reaction time was just too slow and the much faster pressure exposed him. I agree with the others though, he was good with Ellis and has looked good with Ekholm.

 

[triggrman]

Subban pinches in too much and then he is trapped with the forwards having to cover for him. I think they should expose Subban to the Vegas draft and hope they pick him. Defense is much better without him and the locker room can settle down and get back to business. They also dump a big salary. Irwin has been solid on defense since his call up.

Hey just what we needed another troll...

 

[triggrman]

David you asked about Subban's skating.

I'd say his skating speed is average, nowhere near Josi, who I think is probably one of the overall fastest defensemen in the league (Karlsson fans will be pissed I said that) but the thing that does separate him is his ability to turn, make deep cuts and move laterally at top speed (edgework) is second to none on this team. This is why he's able to control his gaps so well, despite average speed. He also has good speed control, he can speed up and slow down with incredible control. His first 3 steps are incredible.

 

[HCH]

David you asked about Subban's skating.

I'd say his skating speed is average, nowhere near Josi, who I think is probably one of the overall fastest defensemen in the league (Karlsson fans will be pissed I said that) but the thing that does separate him is his ability to turn, make deep cuts and move laterally at top speed (edgework) is second to none on this team. This is why he's able to control his gaps so well, despite average speed. He also has good speed control, he can speed up and slow down with incredible control. His first 3 steps are incredible.

I agree with his edgework when he is carrying the puck, it is second to none. Incredible actually.

I didn't think he moved laterally particularly well when skating backwards and trying to cover an oncoming puck carrier nor did he control his gaps well during his time with the Habs. His first three steps seemed okay but far from incredible to me, from a standing stop it used to take him a bit of time to get up to top speed. Perhaps all of those have improved with Nashville.

In summary, I would rate Subban as a well above average skating defensemen who still needs work on positional play and decision making. As a coach, the challenge is finding a partner who complements his obvious skills

 

[triggrman]

His gap control here has been great. Maybe Laviolette preaches keeping it closer, I don't know.

 

[drwpreds]

You should rename this thread "All the reasons Subban is horrible and terrible and they should trade/expose/release/waive him since he is the Predators' worst player ever and I miss Shea and who cares about his 17 points and his nice advanced stats I DO NOT LIKE HIM!!!!1111!!"

One of these days there is going to be a great 30 for 30 on Subban. I am absolutely fascinated by fans reactions to him- he has to be maybe the most polarizing player in NHL history.

When the trade went down, all we heard was the rumored reasons why the Canadiens got rid of him (locker room, selfish outside interests, etc, etc). Reasons which most of the outside hockey world just found ridiculous.

But now he has been here only a few months and you already see him starting to get the same type criticisms from Preds fans. (Still completely ridiculous in my opinion).

I just find the whole PK dynamic absolutely fascinating.........

 

[triggrman]

Listening to the player interviews about PK, they all seemed like light-hearted jabs you give a person you really like. They all seem to be fun guys and PK seems like he fits in well.

 

[nomorekids]

I feel that's a bit simplistic and doesn't consider the types of teams being played over those two games or consider the possibility that current pairings just aren't ideal at the moment.

This is all I'll acknowledge or agree with when it comes to the ridiculous original statement.

 

[nomorekids]

I'm going to start a full thread on this.

Defensemen is what I watch the most, in all zones. I posted my assesment in another thread but I'm going to move it to here.

****PLEASE NO ADVANCED STATS DEBATES HERE, USE THEM IF YOU WANT BUT THIS IS TO DISCUSS THE PLAYERS NOT THE VALIDITY OF ADVANCED STATS****




Now, I've never been a big Ellis fan but lately, he and Josi look like they're dominant at times. The way they hold the blueline and keep the puck in the offensive zone is incredible at times. The seem to see the ice so well, it really looks like a powerplay. I know last night NJD isn't a good team but they did it at times against Philly and Minnesota too.

I would have never thought that pairing would be so dominant and they are especially with the puck.

I agree with all of this, though I'd maybe be a bit harder on Ekholm's positioning and hockey IQ. I especially agree that Ellis has stepped up in a huge way all around. Maybe our most improved player, outside of Arvidsson.

 

[David Singleton]

David you asked about Subban's skating.

I'd say his skating speed is average, nowhere near Josi, who I think is probably one of the overall fastest defensemen in the league (Karlsson fans will be pissed I said that) but the thing that does separate him is his ability to turn, make deep cuts and move laterally at top speed (edgework) is second to none on this team. This is why he's able to control his gaps so well, despite average speed. He also has good speed control, he can speed up and slow down with incredible control. His first 3 steps are incredible.

That makes sense.

Generally speaking, as much as I admire what Weber was as a player and what he brought to the team, I do like Subban's fit from a talent perspective.

That said, I don't like the pairings right now. From the perspective of complimenting talents in the pairings, I like Josi/Subban and Ekholm/Ellis better offensively and defensively.

I feel like the hangup is the thought that the offense would be better overall by splitting the two Norris-caliber defensemen as both are good with the puck on their sticks. And while that's true, Subban's ability is accentuated once the puck has already been brought into the zone and not in bringing it up.

If he's placed with Josi, Josi can continue to be the primary puck carrier, while Subban can be a very effective alternative that looks to push the puck up ice to the forwards more than Weber who was a bit more comfortable with Josi getting the team into the offensive zone.

Once in the zone, Subban's edgework in keeping the puck alive and the offense moving would compliment Josi's pinching ability.

Defensively, Subban would bring better defense and physicality to the Josi pairing than Ellis. Ekholm and Ellis can then move back into normal 2nd pair minutes in which they were extremely effective last season.

 

[drwpreds]

Listening to the player interviews about PK, they all seemed like light-hearted jabs you give a person you really like. They all seem to be fun guys and PK seems like he fits in well.

Oh, I think the players like him just fine- my post may have been misleading but I was mainly talking about outside the locker room.

 

[glenngineer]

good thread idea trig. i agree with your analysis, with a couple of additional thoughts.

..i think subban sees the ice a little better than josi, but josi's puck carrying ability can break down the defense much better than subban's puck carrying ability can.
..ellis speed issue is in his backward skating, which of course is important in a defenseman. up ice he is noticbaly faster.
..i agree in general ellis is probably the highest hockey IQ d-guy we have. and he probably has the most accurate shot.
..josi is probably the best we have at stickchecking defensively. subban appears really solid here too.
..i do agree with the idea that our two most phsycial guys are ekholm and subban and yet we still pair them together.
..but i also admit that josi and ellis appear to be starting to really gel together, as you say, both without and with the puck.
..all in all, i do believe subban might have more natural all around 'talent' than josi, but at the same time i believe josi is the more valuable defenseman to us because of his better ability to carry the puck with speed and penatrate and break down a defense.
..cann't explain how ekholm has looked so much better paired than irwin these three games than he has with subban for 28.

So it wasn't just me that noticed this.