Line Combos: Defense Pairings

[Bourne Endeavor]

Never claimed they are better than our core. I think they should be getting #5 and #6 in minutes.

And Hamhuis has been better than edler every single year and will continue to be, Edler is lucky that Hamhuis isn't good on the PP. Fans of Edler will continue to think he will come out the next year the full out #1, I don't see this ever happening. He simply isn't the type of player that is willing to play physical, whether because his body cannot handle it (due to his back) or he doesn't have the passion. And he will continue be a risk in high pressure situations IMO

Pseudo number 1? IMO I think hes a top defender in this league. His only fault is that he isn't a PP type of D man. He puts up a good amount of points every year and mostly at ES

Even with the amount of people here who think hes great and our best defender, i still think hes underrated around here, even by those people

They won't if paired with any of our core. That is the crux of the debate. Either one or both are forced to play additional minutes they may not be capable of, or someone from the established plays less.

Pseudo-number one in the sense he is not traditionally considered a number one defenseman overall. It's certainly debatable, especially as Hamhuis has been our most consistent defenseman since his arrival. Nevertheless, Torts has called out Edler specifically, thus I maintain he will be anointed our number one for at least the initial run of the season. Edler actually does play physical, albeit not in the same way say, Phaneuf would. Most are optimistic because we have a fresh voice and different tactics. We will say what effect Torts has.

Personally, I rank Hamhuis as a top twenty defenseman, but I do believe Edler has the potential to surpass him.

Edit: Just say no to drugs - they make people think that two young RHD's would be good on the same pairing

Because no defenseman has ever tried a different position and succeeded.

 

[Pip]

Edit: Just say no to drugs - they make people think that two young RHD's would be good on the same pairing

Well, we often play two LH defensemen together so I don't see the issue if one of them is capable of playing their off side.

 

[biturbo19]

The way i see it, you can narrow things down to a likely/desirable starting point just by process of elimination based on what we already know about our blueliners.

1)Edler cannot play the Right side.
2)Bieksa and Edler cannot play together, at all. It's a disaster.
3)Bieksa frankly, tends to be a liability when playing with anyone other than Hamhuis.
4)We have two young guys who are both Righties, unlikely they force one of them to play their off side, so that's an unlikely pairing.
5)Garrison has shown an ability to play his off side quite well.

Basically, following those things through...i hope and think we start with the 'obvious':

Hamhuis-Bieksa
Edler-Garrison
Alberts?-Tanev
*Weber

and Corrado in the AHL.


However...i think Corrado will be given a strong opportunity to make this team out of camp and 'learn on the job' to borrow the phrase. In which case, i think the reasonable approach would be to roll 3 very balanced pairings, each with a specific role.

Basically these pairings:

Hamhuis-Bieksa
Garrison-Tanev
Edler-Corrado


Hamhuis-Bieksa ---> needs little explanation. Hamjuice is the most effective way to get the absolute most out of both defenders. It just works. They can take on a portion of the 'shutdown minutes', sharing the load with...

Garrison-Tanev ---> if Tanev is anywhere near the 'defensive rock' many here suggest he can be, you can use this pairing as a traditional 'shutdown pairing'. If you think Tanev is capable of playing at the same level as Mike Weaver (and there are a lot of similarities in play style as well), then you're basically getting at least the level of play Florida got from their 'shutdown unit', hopefully better if Tanev>Weaver, as a '2nd pairing', sharing the load with Hamhuis-Bieksa. Garrison also adds the size to keep Tanev from getting exposed around the net front and against big powerforwards down low.

Edler-Corrado ---> showed some flashes of instant chemistry, and i think you can use this pairing in an 'offensive role'. ie. Get these guys out to ride shotgun with the Sedin line, moving the puck out quickly. And offensively, you've got Edler as our best point producer, and Corrado who has shown some decent instincts in the offensive end (certainly more than Tanev), and has that big RH bomb that could come in handy there. Also allows Corrado to 'learn on the job' against somewhat 'softer' competition. Sheltered minutes, but he should still be able to get quite a bit of work in each night.

Roll all 3 pairings with roughly equal 5v5 minutes, HamJuice maybe getting a bit more than the other two, and 'bias' the minute share towards the 'big 4' largely with special teams minutes.

Get Hamhuis-Garrison out there to shoulder the bulk of PK work. Edler with his 1st unit PP minutes. I'd like to see Garrison-Bieksa as the 2nd PP unit, where Garrison's shot can be a real focal point, and typical Sedinery can be the focal point on the 1st unit. Try out Corrado with Edler and the Twins on that 1st unit...just for that big RH shot they're missing. It's a bit of a long-shot, but it's probably the best option we have for that role, as i just don't think Garrison's unique PP skillset (aka blasting the puck towards the net every time he touches it) meshes well with the Twins and the more patient, methodical approach they take to dissecting a penalty kill. Just streamlines what both units want to do. Sedins can fuss around with the puck a lot, and the 2nd unit can work with a singular purpose of getting the puck to Garry for a one timer.

At least, that's what makes sense to me, and what i'm hoping and at least partially expecting to see.

 

[biturbo19]

Well, we often play two LH defensemen together so I don't see the issue if one of them is capable of playing their off side.

It's a different scenario when you're talking about RH d-men as opposed to LH guys though. RH guys, due to the relative scarcity of them, rarely have any significant experience playing on the Left side. Whereas LH d-men much more often end up shunted to the Right side at various points in their careers.

I suppose there is some small indication that Corrado may be able to play the Left side as he's done a little bit of it here and there. But it's still far from ideal.

And more than just the RH-RH incompatibility, it just really doesn't seem like a good pairing to have Corrado and Tanev together, as neither guy is all that physically strong or experienced. I think you're looking at a good opportunity for opposing coaches to get the odd mismatch with a big powerful offensive line out there with the potential to physically bully those two young defenders into mistakes. They just don't necessarily complement each other's strengths and weakness effectively at this point.

 

[Pip]

Thats fair, but you would also get to limit their ice time and play them against 3rd and 4th lines. I also don't think Corrado is that weak, an especially not on Tanev's level. Not saying it would 100% work, but I would be willing to try it out.

 

[Pure West]

My opinions are:

- Under no circumstances should Edler and Bieksa play together
- Alberts should be a lineup regular based on his play last season, but minutes should be within reason
- Tanev shouldn't be counted on to be a top 4 guy just yet, but he may grow into it if injuries give him the opportunity.
- Hamhuis is absolutely the team's number 1 defenseman, and makes who he plays with significantly better.
- Start Corrado in the minors unless he blows us away at camp, as if they project him as a top 4, he's gonna need to learn how to play with a bigger role. Playing 10 minutes a night just trying not to make a big mistake won't develop his game.

IMO, that leaves us with:

Hamhuis - Bieksa
Edler-Garrison
Alberts-Tanev

Or swap Edler and Bieksa.

 

[biturbo19]

Thats fair, but you would also get to limit their ice time and play them against 3rd and 4th lines. I also don't think Corrado is that weak, an especially not on Tanev's level. Not saying it would 100% work, but I would be willing to try it out.

It remains to be seen how much stronger Corrado (and Tanev) have gotten over the summer, as hopefully that's been an emphasis in their training, for both. But i recall Corrado getting pushed around pretty badly at times last year. Did well maintaining decent defensive positions despite that, but neither of those guys would inspire any confidence moving anyone from the net front at this point.

And while you're right, they could be 'sheltered', playing against softer competition...those 3rd and 4th lines are going to include a lot of the big beefy physical players that might well be their achilles heel, and wear them down physically. Could kind of compound the problem.

 

[Seatoo]

Because no defenseman has ever tried a different position and succeeded.

Well, we often play two LH defensemen together so I don't see the issue if one of them is capable of playing their off side.

The NHL has many many LHD's but a shortage of RHD's. This is also true in junior. What that means is that many more LHD are accustomed to playing on their off side, whereas RHD are many times then more unlikely to have literally any experience on their offside at all. Now take basically all the LHD we've had over the last 5-6 years and it is safe to say that only 2 (Erhoff and Garrison) could be relied upon to play well on their offside and they have all been older seasoned veterans not rookies (Corrado) or Sophmores (Tanev), furthermore the percentage of Dmen in the NHL who thrive on their offside is remarkably low.

So yes I was correct in my original assertion that it would incredibly naive and moronic to think putting two greenhorn RHD's together and expect success.

 

[Pip]

The NHL has many many LHD's but a shortage of RHD's. This is also true in junior. What that means is that many more LHD are accustomed to playing on their off side, whereas RHD are many times then more unlikely to have literally any experience on their offside at all. Now take basically all the LHD we've had over the last 5-6 years and it is safe to say that only 2 (Erhoff and Garrison) could be relied upon to play well on their offside and they have all been older seasoned veterans not rookies (Corrado) or Sophmores (Tanev), furthermore the percentage of Dmen in the NHL who thrive on their offside is remarkably low.

So yes I was correct in my original assertion that it would incredibly naive and moronic to think putting two greenhorn RHD's together and expect success.

I think we need to look solely at our D core when deciding who (if anybody) should play their off side. Corrado has shown the ability to play either side, which is a valuable trait and I think we can utilize it. It's not as if playing him on the left is going to make him forget how to play the right side. I pretty much have Garrison as a lock to play the righty side next year so as far as I am concerned out top 4 consists of 2 left sided defensemen, and two right sided ones.

If we need to eventually move Corrado to the right that shouldn't be an issue imo.

 

[NYVanfan]

I'm going to disagree with most and say Trots is going to reorganize the defensive pairing so that each pairing plays a strong offensive/defensive role. Elder's pairng will still carry the most minutes, but Trots will expect Edler's pairing to play much more against the opposition's top lines then in the past. A role that Hamhuis and Bieksa handled before. I also think Alberts will remain our 7th D and because Corrado can move up and down without worring about waivers, Corrado will play in the AHL while Weber, with his point shot and PP skills will make the team.

Pairings:
1st - Edler - Tanev (Tanev's defensive play allows Edler more freedom)
2nd - Hamhuis - Weber (Hamhuis' defensive play opens up space for Weber's offence)
3rd - Garrison - Bieksa (Both players play tough and can be offensive threats)

sets up to make tanev very expensive next year
and unless there's a real sharing of minutes throughout, that's a lotta coin on a 3rd pairing

here's a look what torts did last year...

Girardi 25:24:00
McDonagh 24:21
Staal 24:27:00
Del Zotto 23:10
Stralman 18:02
Moore 11:46
Eminger 13:02
Gilroy 9:33
Hamrlik 10:06
Bickel 5:31

fairly even spread for the top 4, looks like a rotation for the bottom pairing, w Stralman getting the bulk there.

Girardi played nearly half his even strength minutes w McD, then another 20% with DelZ, then 10% with Staal.

Staal played most of his time with DelZ, but that was only 33%, then a quarter w Stralman and Girardi (it was Staal-Stralman in the playoffs)

DelZ's ES time was really shuffled -- only 20%ish with any of the others

so it looks like there was a fair bit of shuffling, and i dont know exactly how these guys compare to our top 4, so maybe not so telling, execpt to say there was juggling (which will hardly be new for us...)

edit -- i posted this on the NYR board, to get their take...

 

[BoHorvatFan]

Our top 4 better be in amazing shape and ready to block shots.

Edler is going to log gigantic minutes and have a shot to establish himself as a true number 1. He'll play all situations. I'm excited to see how he does.

 

[Hi-wayman]

sets up to make tanev very expensive next year
and unless there's a real sharing of minutes throughout, that's a lotta coin on a 3rd pairing

here's a look what torts did last year...

Girardi 25:24:00
McDonagh 24:21
Staal 24:27:00
Del Zotto 23:10
Stralman 18:02
Moore 11:46
Eminger 13:02
Gilroy 9:33
Hamrlik 10:06
Bickel 5:31

fairly even spread for the top 4, looks like a rotation for the bottom pairing, w Stralman getting the bulk there.

Girardi played nearly half his even strength minutes w McD, then another 20% with DelZ, then 10% with Staal.

Staal played most of his time with DelZ, but that was only 33%, then a quarter w Stralman and Girardi (it was Staal-Stralman in the playoffs)

DelZ's ES time was really shuffled -- only 20%ish with any of the others

so it looks like there was a fair bit of shuffling, and i dont know exactly how these guys compare to our top 4, so maybe not so telling, execpt to say there was juggling (which will hardly be new for us...)

edit -- i posted this on the NYR board, to get their take...

I see a fairly balanced amount of minute between all three pairing. Max 22-20-18. Unlike the Rangers defense last season, I don't see Trots loading up first or second pairing with two top players and creating a weak 3rd pairing getting limited ice time. That just wears out the strongest defensemen on a team with travel problems like the Canucks. Instead I see our three excellent LD's anchoring a pairing each and the RD's of each pairing chosen to specifically complement the style of play of each LD. The RD's matched to compliment the anchoring LD are not in order based on their skill level as a defenseman overall, but by what skills they bring to that pairing's LD. Any future trades for defensemen based on the same. If a LD is injured and Alberts comes into the lineup, his RD to match his style even if it means replacing the RD that was used to match the injured LD.

 

[Pip]

Since people's opinions change after seeing a few preseason games and camp and such, I was going to bump this to see what people think now about our pairings.

I think the biggest difference is that Corrado earns an NHL spot, rather than being sent down to the AHL to get more mins. Would like to see more of Weber before I comment on him, and AA has the potential to be a very solid option despite his poor showing.

Garrison-Bieksa could be a possible option, who knows. Then throw Edler and Tanev, then Corrado with Hamhuis or something. This is most likely a premature bump, but I'm bored and want to talk defense!

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

Well, we often play two LH defensemen together so I don't see the issue if one of them is capable of playing their off side.

Anecdotal but I play the left side as a defenseman so much better than the right side and I'm right-handed. Like it's not even funny how much better I am on my "off" side.

Different strokes for different folks though. I could see Corrado working well from that side.

 

[Pip]

Anecdotal but I play the left side as a defenseman so much better than the right side and I'm right-handed. Like it's not even funny how much better I am on my "off" side.

Different strokes for different folks though. I could see Corrado working well from that side.

Yeah, a guy like Hamhuis or Edler we probably don't want playing on his offside, but from my viewings I haven't really noticed a drop off in play when Garrison plays his off side. What I hear/read about Corrado suggests something similar.

When I played my minor league house career (lol) I was pretty much put on whatever side my partner felt least comfortable on so I became pretty competent at both. It got to a point where I don't care what side I play anymore.

 

[Pseudonymous*]

Since people's opinions change after seeing a few preseason games and camp and such, I was going to bump this to see what people think now about our pairings.

I think the biggest difference is that Corrado earns an NHL spot, rather than being sent down to the AHL to get more mins. Would like to see more of Weber before I comment on him, and AA has the potential to be a very solid option despite his poor showing.

Garrison-Bieksa could be a possible option, who knows. Then throw Edler and Tanev, then Corrado with Hamhuis or something. This is most likely a premature bump, but I'm bored and want to talk defense!

I stand by my first post in this thread. Still want to see the same thing.. still astounded anybody said Corrado should start in the AHL

 

[Bleach Clean]

Since people's opinions change after seeing a few preseason games and camp and such, I was going to bump this to see what people think now about our pairings.

I think the biggest difference is that Corrado earns an NHL spot, rather than being sent down to the AHL to get more mins. Would like to see more of Weber before I comment on him, and AA has the potential to be a very solid option despite his poor showing.

Garrison-Bieksa could be a possible option, who knows. Then throw Edler and Tanev, then Corrado with Hamhuis or something. This is most likely a premature bump, but I'm bored and want to talk defense!

I think placing Garrison on the left side, when we've seen what he can do on the right, is removing a lot of utility from this player. He should be on the right-side IMO. Be it with Edler or Hamhuis or even Alberts. That's where I would like to see him continue this year.

As such, Corrado still goes down to the AHL for me. If they hadn't have signed Alberts, I'd think differently, but this allows them the chance to exploit an ELC call-up. It will make the defense stronger as a whole without needlessly losing a player to fit Corrado in now. And as we all know, injuries have plagued this team at the worst possible time, so we can be all but assured that Corrado will get NHL games regardless.

Hamhuis-Bieksa
Edler-Garrison

Should be the top4. Makes too much sense not to be. Then Alberts-Tanev round it out. Weber as the 7th. If Weber draws in for Alberts, then they can run Garrison on the left side and push Tanev up with Edler. HamJuice should be a going concern as a result.

Edit: Pseudo, prepare to be... err... re-astounded. lol.

 

[Pseudonymous*]

 

[David71]

if a left handed player plays on his off-side while defending sometimes i see them use their backhand to swipe the puck out cuz say for example garry plays on the right side and if he's under pressure from the forecheckers, he would dig the puck out and backhand it out. some players are more comfortable on their corrective side. most arent i guess.

 

[donut]

Can we please just trade Bieksa!?

 

[denkiteki]

I think placing Garrison on the left side, when we've seen what he can do on the right, is removing a lot of utility from this player. He should be on the right-side IMO. Be it with Edler or Hamhuis or even Alberts. That's where I would like to see him continue this year.

As such, Corrado still goes down to the AHL for me. If they hadn't have signed Alberts, I'd think differently, but this allows them the chance to exploit an ELC call-up. It will make the defense stronger as a whole without needlessly losing a player to fit Corrado in now. And as we all know, injuries have plagued this team at the worst possible time, so we can be all but assured that Corrado will get NHL games regardless.

Hamhuis-Bieksa
Edler-Garrison

Should be the top4. Makes too much sense not to be. Then Alberts-Tanev round it out. Weber as the 7th. If Weber draws in for Alberts, then they can run Garrison on the left side and push Tanev up with Edler. HamJuice should be a going concern as a result.

Edit: Pseudo, prepare to be... err... re-astounded. lol.

I disagree... i think the utility that JG provides should be used to give us the best possible line-up. If Corrado is our next best dman and it doesn't hurt his development, then he should play. With the way Weber/Alberts have been playing, we could even put one of them on waiver and they'll most likely clear. No re-entry waiver means calling them up if there is an injury isn't going to be a huge issue. Also given our forward situation, there is always the option of carrying 8 dmans.

The question is really becoming what is better for Corrado's development... spending the year in the 3rd pair or playing top minutes in the AHL. Also as far as development goes, is it better for the organization to give up that first pairing AHL spot that Corrado might get to another prospect (say tommernes or andersson). Also rather the team wants the best line-up for now or possibly better developmental path for Corrado. Either way, odds are Corrado will see his fair share of action in the NHL this year either by making the team or as an injury replacement.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

Can we please just trade Bieksa!?

Hell no. People seem to gravitate toward him being a liability of sorts defensively. Besides being injured last season, I find said liability concerns are somewhat overstated here. Yes, he's inconsistent a little too often at times, but when he's on, Bieska is a solid top four defenseman. Another thing that seems frequently overlooked. He was on pace for 14 goals - his best offensive year to date. Does he hit that number? Probably not, but why trade a guy who may well be improving in an arena we need most: offense?

For that reason, I am quite tempted to favor Garrison and Bieska together for an extended period. Both are offensive minded, however Garrison's hybrid style allows for defensive coverage to compliment Bieska's more reckless nature. Meanwhile, we can try Hamhuis with Edler, which I do not recall AV ever doing, as this provides Edler with our most stable defenseman.

Edler - Hamhuis
Garrison - Bieska

I still argue one of Tanev or Corrado should be tried on their off pairing to see if the possibility of converting one of them exists. Although, I suspect Weber is who draws in on the left side.

 

[FOurteenS inCisOr]

Hell no. People seem to gravitate toward him being a liability of sorts defensively. Besides being injured last season, I find said liability concerns are somewhat overstated here. Yes, he's inconsistent a little too often at times, but when he's on, Bieska is a solid top four defenseman. Another thing that seems frequently overlooked. He was on pace for 14 goals - his best offensive year to date. Does he hit that number? Probably not, but why trade a guy who may well be improving in an arena we need most: offense?

For that reason, I am quite tempted to favor Garrison and Bieska together for an extended period. Both are offensive minded, however Garrison's hybrid style allows for defensive coverage to compliment Bieska's more reckless nature. Meanwhile, we can try Hamhuis with Edler, which I do not recall AV ever doing, as this provides Edler with our most stable defenseman.

Edler - Hamhuis
Garrison - Bieska

I still argue one of Tanev or Corrado should be tried on their off pairing to see if the possibility of converting one of them exists. Although, I suspect Weber is who draws in on the left side.

Edler and Hamhuis played together for a stretch last season.

It wasn't a success, IMO.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I disagree... i think the utility that JG provides should be used to give us the best possible line-up. If Corrado is our next best dman and it doesn't hurt his development, then he should play. With the way Weber/Alberts have been playing, we could even put one of them on waiver and they'll most likely clear. No re-entry waiver means calling them up if there is an injury isn't going to be a huge issue. Also given our forward situation, there is always the option of carrying 8 dmans.

The question is really becoming what is better for Corrado's development... spending the year in the 3rd pair or playing top minutes in the AHL. Also as far as development goes, is it better for the organization to give up that first pairing AHL spot that Corrado might get to another prospect (say tommernes or andersson). Also rather the team wants the best line-up for now or possibly better developmental path for Corrado. Either way, odds are Corrado will see his fair share of action in the NHL this year either by making the team or as an injury replacement.

Its the pre-season, Alberts and Weber will round into form.

I think Corrado is best served in the AHL as the first call up.

For Garrison, I want the 4 best Dmen playing top4. That means Garrison on the right, which is fine for him. I guess we see his role and D structure very differently. Let's see how it goes.

 

[Luck 6]

I'm hoping/expecting Edler to improve this season. It takes defensemen longer to peak, it usually doesn't happen until their late 20s. Edler is 27 this season, I think he still has room to grow. I'd put him with Garrison personally, this keeps our best two defensemen (Edler and Hamhuis) on their natural sides. I really want to put Edler in a position to succeed this season, I don't think he's had that the last 2 seasons.